Canadian Identity: un-American

[Michael Hardner]

eyeball

There's the rub alright. We'd need a JFK-like put-a-man-on-the-moon challenge to galvanize the public's imagination. Something completely un-Canadian.

It would make one hell of an economic stimulus project though.

Canada couldn't do it alone, as we'd need cars to be redesigned.

Let's look at the costs:

Redesign/Relaunch of all freeways

Redesign/Relaunch of the car

Savings:

Incredible fuel savings

40-50 thousand lives saved per year, leaving out injuries

Environmental improvement

Improved travel times and attendant efficiencies

Now all we have to do is get the following entities to work together nicely on the project:

Investors

Public

Government

Car Companies

Good luck...

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah but you're all alike--there's just a border between there and here--duhh

...we have Mohawks too....so much for your long hair theory.

[Oleg Bach]

Hey, that's part of the identity crisis, as there are members here who will swear that Canada did not exist until 1867, or 1931, or....

Every real war that Canada has ever fought has been on behalf of King and Queen. The last time Canada had an identy was about 1939..and that identification was directly granted by Britian. After that we really have not had one. The only little one that we use to have was when others would say "Look there goes a Canadian, they are peace keepers and very nice people" _ Now that has been tainted by Britian and America insisting that we have some sort of "mission' as invaders -- all we can cry out in the night is this "WHO AM I, I AM NOTHING". I really don't have an identity nationally - they never gave me one.

[g_bambino]

Every real war that Canada has ever fought has been on behalf of King and Queen. The last time Canada had an identy was about 1939..and that identification was directly granted by Britian. After that we really have not had one. The only little one that we use to have was when others would say "Look there goes a Canadian, they are peace keepers and very nice people" _ Now that has been tainted by Britian and America insisting that we have some sort of "mission' as invaders -- all we can cry out in the night is this "WHO AM I, I AM NOTHING". I really don't have an identity nationally - they never gave me one.

Uhh... What?

[M.Dancer]

I rarely think about the US, and once a decade I might visit and I know I am in a foreign country, but one that has damn good plumbing and a passing knowledge of English.

[Shwa]

No surprise. You ask a simple question...

Even at the most basic level, Canada is complex and defies any hegemonic view, even among those majorities that speak the same language. Attempts to impose any sort of simplistic unified view of Canada or Canadians is always doomed to failure and, hopefully, worthy of pleasant and well meaning ridicule.

So no, Canadian "identity" does not primarily consist of being 'not-American.'

[Michael Hardner]

Even at the most basic level, Canada is complex and defies any hegemonic view, even among those majorities that speak the same language. Attempts to impose any sort of simplistic unified view of Canada or Canadians is always doomed to failure and, hopefully, worthy of pleasant and well meaning ridicule.

Still, if you've met an American or Canadian and been fooled as to their nationality ask yourself how often this happens with others.

Have you ever confused a Korean with a Serbian ?

[M.Dancer]

Have you ever confused a Korean with a Serbian ?

I have never confused a Korean but Serbs are easy.

[Michael Hardner]

I have never confused a Korean but Serbs are easy.

Again, you force me to bite my tongue.

[Shwa]

"Still, if you've met an American or Canadian and been fooled as to their nationality ask yourself how often this happens with others."

Hasn't happened yet eh?

[g_bambino]

Have you ever confused a Korean with a Serbian ?

Yes, I once used a Serbian to fool a Korean.

[Keepitsimple]

I got in on this thread late so I apologize if I'm repeating things.

Our identify was pretty well formed until the 60's. We were always different from the US. The Americans fought to free themselves of the British. The US came across our border and tried to capture the city of York (Toronto) - we went back and burned down the White House. We were a colony that embraced England and later, embraced our British heritage. We were mainly a British/European country.....and for us older generations, we actually learned Canadian history in school. We were recognized as the world's best trained fighting force in WWII. Proud, humble and tough.

Then came multi-culturalism. Instead of the melting pot where newcomers were expected to embrace the history and general culture of Canada, Canadians were force-fed a "homogenized" society - the cultural mozaic - the ability of newcomers from any country to come here, settle in their own communities, and create bubble sub-societies. Screams of racism and discrimination from the politically correct Leftists have forced mainstream Canadians to grin and bear the excesses of multi-cultural policy. Meaningful Canadian history is disappearing from our schools. The Lord's prayer, Christmas and the Easter Bunny are under siege.

If people would like to see a Canadian identity, drive through Canada and visit some of our smaller towns of 5-10 thousand people......or talk with our Canadian military.

[eyeball]

The only Canadian sub-society that I know of that's living in a bubble is the aging frightened old cohort of Canadians that are now bent on enveloping Canada in the same bubble - this bubble of course is the proverbial pig-in-the-python. As much as I hate to say, its really starting to look like its particularily depressing brand of conservatism might actually become a real force to be reckoned with in Canada.

I know some people like to think all the real fights the left took on have been won and its time to move on, perhaps they're right. But I think the mentality that the left has had to fight against is still very much alive and its hell-bent on kicking up a last-ditch fuss.

I was born at the tail end of the pig and from where I'm sitting it looks like the head is going to give the country a really bad case of indigestion. Society will probably come to hate old people so much they'll be turning us into Soylent Gray by the time I get through to the end.

[Michael Hardner]

eyeball,

The only Canadian sub-society that I know of that's living in a bubble is the aging frightened old cohort of Canadians that are now bent on enveloping Canada in the same bubble - this bubble of course is the proverbial pig-in-the-python. As much as I hate to say, its really starting to look like its particularily depressing brand of conservatism might actually become a real force to be reckoned with in Canada.

I know some people like to think all the real fights the left took on have been won and its time to move on, perhaps they're right. But I think the mentality that the left has had to fight against is still very much alive and its hell-bent on kicking up a last-ditch fuss.

I was born at the tail end of the pig and from where I'm sitting it looks like the head is going to give the country a really bad case of indigestion. Society will probably come to hate old people so much they'll be turning us into Soylent Gray by the time I get through to the end.

This is interesting, but what causes you to anticipate that it may become a real force here ?

Living in Toronto, I see lots of people, lots of money, and lots of momentum and none of it is aimed backwards. It would be interesting to find out where the people you refer to have influence. I feel that they're over represented on this board, but under represented in the real world.

[eyeball]

eyeball,

This is interesting, but what causes you to anticipate that it may become a real force here ?

Living in Toronto, I see lots of people, lots of money, and lots of momentum and none of it is aimed backwards. It would be interesting to find out where the people you refer to have influence. I feel that they're over represented on this board, but under represented in the real world.

In Canada they can be represented by a majority government with as little as 37% of the vote - which can actually mean as little as 20% of all the people in Canada.

[Michael Hardner]

eyeball,

Theoretically yes but there's no sign to me that refusniks and people who generally are suspicious of government and our glorious socialist democracy would participate at a greater rate than your average CBC supporter.

[eyeball]

Michael,

Perhaps, but it does seem there might be something to this notion that as people get older they tend towards conservatism, not because they're wiser but because they're easier to frighten with things like immigrants, crime and even democracy.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Michael,

Perhaps, but it does seem there might be something to this notion that as people get older they tend towards conservatism, not because they're wiser but because they're easier to frighten with things like immigrants, crime and even democracy.

The trend toward conservatism is due to the desire to retain the old ways in old age.

[Keepitsimple]

The only Canadian sub-society that I know of that's living in a bubble is the aging frightened old cohort of Canadians that are now bent on enveloping Canada in the same bubble - this bubble of course is the proverbial pig-in-the-python. As much as I hate to say, its really starting to look like its particularily depressing brand of conservatism might actually become a real force to be reckoned with in Canada.

The bubbles are in the big cities. Here in Toronto, there are a couple of very large areas that are predominantly Chinese....Malls have Chinese only signs - shop after shop up and down major streets are signed in Chinese. I'm sure the same thing applies in Vancouver. The Family Reunification system allows for people who can't speak English to live and work in these bubbles without ever blending with mainstream society. There are other bubbles that encircle the Tamil community....and I'm sure there are others.

[wyly]

In Canada they can be represented by a majority government with as little as 37% of the vote - which can actually mean as little as 20% of all the people in Canada.

not to worry, in 20 yrs almost all of them will be dead...the Harper cons are their last gasp, better education eliminates conservative ideology social progress can never be stopped...good times ahead, good times

[wyly]

The bubbles are in the big cities. Here in Toronto, there are a couple of very large areas that are predominantly Chinese....Malls have Chinese only signs - shop after shop up and down major streets are signed in Chinese. I'm sure the same thing applies in Vancouver. The Family Reunification system allows for people who can't speak English to live and work in these bubbles without ever blending with mainstream society. There are other bubbles that encircle the Tamil community....and I'm sure there are others.

so what your saying is nothing has changed in the last century or ever...new immigrants always hang with others like them, it's not as if any of them would be welcome into the homes of rightwing posters on this forum...

[Gabriel]

This is an interesting topic of discussion, and it overlaps with a theme I was trying to touch on in a thread I started entitled, "Cheap points that the Liberal party can often score" - found here.

Canada has a complex national identity, and within it various provincial, municipal, and subcultural identities. Clearly a resistance to what is seen as "American" and a not-so-subtle hostility to Americans/America/Americanism is an element of part of Canada's political culture. Although I think this is an element of Canada's left-wing.

I have always lived in a big Canadian metropolitan city, and have experienced first-hand the front-lines of Canada's multiculturalism. With this phenomenon comes strengths and weaknesses, obviously. There is something amazing about minority communities maintaining their language/tradition/cuisine/religion/etc while thriving in Canada. I know I'm not the only one in here who loves all the amazing ethnic food available in Canada's big cities! It is a difficult balance to be strike between the preservation of one's unique culture/heritage while integrating into the Canadian society as a whole. To address Keepitsimple's message regarding sub-communities that operate in a bubble, I also find this concerning. The preservation of one's culture/heritage should not come at the price of isolating oneself from the greater Canadian collective. If this impedes one's ability to learn English (or French) or Canadian values/legalities, then we've got a problem. I would say that overall, Canada has done a good job in managing these vastly different cultures (we're a very multicultural country) under the umbrella of our country. That being said, I think it's a never ending job which requires vigilance: Canada needs to stay on top of newly arriving immigrants and ensure that we are doing our part to give them reasonable opportunities to integrate, and that THEY are making reasonable efforts and taking responsibility to learn the ways of our land.

Obviously there is so much more to be said about Canadian culture, but I just wanted to say a few things about how I view multiculturalism in Canada. Lastly, I'd like that add that America's large cities are among the most multicultural cities on the planet. Indeed, America was probably the first country to adopt a massively multicultural population.

Actually I will add a few comments about comparisons between Canada and America. On the whole, we are extremely similar. Politically, culturally (or multiculturally), legally, economically, etc. Of course there are differences as well, we tax more up here and provide public health care. We don't have a history of slavery in this country. I can give many other differences, but on the whole we have far more in common than we have different. I'd also like to mention that this Canadian identity issue, part of it being our desire to differentiate ourselves from our southern neighbours, isn't unique. For example, former Soviet republics, after splitting off and becoming independent have experienced similar cultural identity issues connected with differentiating themselves from the Russian culture. The Ukraine is a good example. In a simple way, it's a way of casting off what's viewed by some as an overbearing neighbour, with an emphasis on differences and a neglect of similarities (even when the similarities far outweigh the differences).

[wyly]

Canada has a complex national identity, and within it various provincial, municipal, and subcultural identities. Clearly a resistance to what is seen as "American" and a not-so-subtle hostility to Americans/America/Americanism is an element of part of Canada's political culture. Although I think this is an element of Canada's left-wing.

left wing? even most of our conservatives are left of the american right...

That being said, I think it's a never ending job which requires vigilance: Canada needs to stay on top of newly arriving immigrants and ensure that we are doing our part to give them reasonable opportunities to integrate, and that THEY are making reasonable efforts and taking responsibility to learn the ways of our land.

what exactly are the ways of our land, nothing has changed since I was a kid and I'm an immigrant and as Canadian as you...

Obviously there is so much more to be said about Canadian culture, but I just wanted to say a few things about how I view multiculturalism in Canada. Lastly, I'd like that add that America's large cities are among the most multicultural cities on the planet. Indeed, America was probably the first country to adopt a massively multicultural population.

I think the Roman Empire has that distinction beaten by a few years

Actually I will add a few comments about comparisons between Canada and America. On the whole, we are extremely similar. Politically, culturally (or multiculturally), legally, economically, etc. Of course there are differences as well, we tax more up here and provide public health care. We don't have a history of slavery in this country. I can give many other differences, but on the whole we have far more in common than we have different. I'd also like to mention that this Canadian identity issue, part of it being our desire to differentiate ourselves from our southern neighbours, isn't unique. For example, former Soviet republics, after splitting off and becoming independent have experienced similar cultural identity issues connected with differentiating themselves from the Russian culture. The Ukraine is a good example. In a simple way, it's a way of casting off what's viewed by some as an overbearing neighbour, with an emphasis on differences and a neglect of similarities (even when the similarities far outweigh the differences).

how can you watch the debates between democrats and republicans and think we are in any way similar?...we watch the same tv speak the same language and that's where it stops...

[Gabriel]

left wing? even most of our conservatives are left of the american right...

what exactly are the ways of our land, nothing has changed since I was a kid and I'm an immigrant and as Canadian as you...

I think the Roman Empire has that distinction beaten by a few years

how can you watch the debates between democrats and republicans and think we are in any way similar?...we watch the same tv speak the same language and that's where it stops...

wyly - If you really intend on having a serious discussion, why don't you ask serious questions or make serious arguments? You couldn't make it more obvious that you are simply trying to troll me. Excuse me for not listing the Roman Empire in what I assumed was a conversation in the context of modern countries! Perhaps when you travel the world, specifically America, a little more you'll be able to see the huge similarities between Canada and the USA in a global context. To dumb down the commonalities between Canada and America to, "we watch the same tv speak the same language and that's where it stops" shows just how little you know about this subject (it also suggests a thing or two about your politics/ideology). I'm here to have a serious discussion with serious people. Go bother someone else.

And if you're Canadian, why do you need to me to explain the ways of our land?

[wyly]

wyly - If you really intend on having a serious discussion, why don't you ask serious questions or make serious arguments? You couldn't make it more obvious that you are simply trying to troll me. Excuse me for not listing the Roman Empire in what I assumed was a conversation in the context of modern countries!

...oh you want modern countries hmm, like Brazil or Argentina ...

Perhaps when you travel the world, specifically America, a little more you'll be able to see the huge similarities between Canada and the USA in a global context. To dumb down the commonalities between Canada and America to, "we watch the same tv speak the same language and that's where it stops" shows just how little you know about this subject (it also suggests a thing or two about your politics/ideology). I'm here to have a serious discussion with serious people. Go bother someone else.

tto expand the commonalities between Canada and USA to anything more than language shows how much your willing to strech a point... we have as much in common with any modern european country as we do the usa all cultures have the same drives and goals what makes us different is our individual cultures, and we are not like them...we are as different from americans as french are from spanish...sharing a language and a continent does not make us the same...