Are you free in Canada?

[g_bambino]

As you say, there will always be abuses. In China, for decades, those abuses were overlooked, or if they were dealt with, it was in a ludicrously over-the-top fashion (ie. the Cultural Revolution).

No system is perfect, and that is perhaps where bjre is trying to justify his views. He seems to equate the odd miscreant in our system with the systemic violation of basic liberties in China.

Indeed. Nobody in a civilized society is ever truly free; though, that's not to say the less free a society the more civilized it is. It is a matter of degrees closer to or farther away from a perfect balance of freedom and constriction. One idiot cop - if that is indeed the case here - does not a police state make.

[g_bambino]

which point you are not clear about that I have said?

I essentially already addressed this in my first response to the OP; third post in.

[Sir Bandelot]

If that were true there would be none of this.

http://www.braidwoodinquiry.ca/

Our system does try to cover up things, people try to cover up things, our system, with oversight and accountability corrects that.

Does our system uncover cover ups and hold those responsible or not?

Right, I agree there are some checks n the system. There is always corruption, but there are also checks to stop it from happening again. THe first step towards that, is to expose it.

[bjre]

I essentially already addressed this in my first response to the OP; third post in.

Sorry, I don't read all posts because there are too many.

Good grief. Are you serious? One story about one kid that lacks detail and context and you conclude that there's no democracy, human rights, or justice in Canada? Show us where people are being arrested on a mass scale without cause or due process and you'll have my attention.

It is not just one story, there are too many, I have post a lot in this forum.

For example:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....st&p=475214

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....c=14350&hl=

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....c=14159&hl=

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....c=14026&hl=

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....c=13436&hl=

And there are many from other posters.

And countless in Internet.

If you would like to talk about the past, easy to find them everywhere, like residential schools.

But, for now, you're just desperately trying to retroactively find some base for your anti-Canadian creed.

I just said the democracy in Canada seems to be just a lie, and human right situation here is not good. This can not make me anti-Canadian, actually, if something can change to get rid of some of the bad laws that I mentioned, Canadians will be able to live in a better environment.

[ToadBrother]

I just said the democracy in Canada seems to be just a lie, and human right situation here is not good. This can not make me anti-Canadian, actually, if something can change to get rid of some of the bad laws that I mentioned, Canadians will be able to live in a better environment.

No, it is not a lie. It can be hampered, to be sure, by various special interests, but, at the end of the day, Parliament is populated by the elected, and as we can see from the current minority government, not only do we have a democracy, but sometimes it is a very messy democracy.

There will always be bad laws. No matter how egalitarian and open a society, someone will always pass goofy laws, even with the best of intentions. What makes a society free and democratic is not whether or not there are bad laws or whether or not some elected officials are corrupt, but rather with the ability for the general populace to learn of such things and to be able to apply the necessary political pressure to see such laws amended and such individuals removed from office.

The very fact that there is no limit on your capability and right to disseminate information that casts our government in a bad light makes a lie of the very underlying claim you make.

[Michael Hardner]

There's really no arguing with bjre on this topic. He strikes me as somewhat a shill in this reagard.

[bjre]

There's really no arguing with bjre on this topic. He strikes me as somewhat a shill in this reagard.

What kind of argument skill this belong to?

I am not a shill.

I am not sure if you are.

Even for a real shill, is he a human being? Can he has his own human right? Can he has his own idea? Do you have the capability to win in the argument?

Several months ago, I thought you were respectable although you have a different opinion with me. Now, you make me so disappoint.

[Michael Hardner]

bjre

Even for a real shill, is he a human being? Can he has his own human right? Can he has his own idea? Do you have the capability to win in the argument?

A shill can have real opinions, but it's his job to state the opinions he was given. We don't know if the pitchman for a bar of soap really uses that soap, but it doesn't matter because he'll never tell us.

Likewise with you, there's no point in discussing soap.

[bjre]

bjre

A shill can have real opinions, but it's his job to state the opinions he was given. We don't know if the pitchman for a bar of soap really uses that soap, but it doesn't matter because he'll never tell us.

Likewise with you, there's no point in discussing soap.

No matter where comes the opinion, no matter if it is his real opinion or it was given, are you able to convince his opinion is wrong and yours is right with some real persuasive argument?

[g_bambino]

I just said the democracy in Canada seems to be just a lie, and human right situation here is not good. This can not make me anti-Canadian, actually, if something can change to get rid of some of the bad laws that I mentioned, Canadians will be able to live in a better environment.

I know what your overall opinion is. What I am, and others are, saying, however, is that you've little proof to support it - this is a country of 32 million people; so, eight or ten links are really quite insignificant. Everyone admits that, yes, there are examples of actions and behaviour that run counter to the notion of democracy and relative freedom. It's just that nobody rationally interprets a few anomolous instances as proof indisputable that the existence of democracy and justice is a lie.

[Michael Hardner]

bjre,

No matter where comes the opinion, no matter if it is his real opinion or it was given, are you able to convince his opinion is wrong and yours is right with some real persuasive argument?

Certainly. However, with most things subjective values figure into the argument, not just objective facts.

Your values seem to say:

1) Physiological and safety needs are more important than the need to express onesself.

http://www.imteachingfrench.com/wp-content...7/11/maslow.gif

2) Things that are not perfect are basically the same to you.

3) There is no such thing as degrees of freedom. Unless absolute democratic freedom exists, then you feel the same in a police state, or a Western democracy.

How can I argue against such things ?

[gc1765]

We also have a "kick-a-kitten-for-distance" sporting league. It's only amateur right now, but we're hoping it will be an Olympic demonstration event by 2014.

That's odd, I would have thought it would have been more of a summer sport.

Edited October 23, 2009 by gc1765

[bjre]

bjre,

Certainly. However, with most things subjective values figure into the argument, not just objective facts.

Your values seem to say:

1) Physiological and safety needs are more important than the need to express onesself.

http://www.imteachingfrench.com/wp-content...7/11/maslow.gif

Definitely, that is exactly what I believe.

2) Things that are not perfect are basically the same to you.

3) There is no such thing as degrees of freedom. Unless absolute democratic freedom exists, then you feel the same in a police state, or a Western democracy.

I don't care much about abstract concept. I care more about my daily life and people around me. I feel uncomfortable on so many real everyday life things happened here that make it no better than another place. Even something are worse, that is natural.

About the current western democracy, I have posted a lot on how big businesses manipulate it. for example, this one I just posted yesterday: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....mp;#entry475270 All have references and original place where it come from.

How can I argue against such things ?

I don't know, if you willing to argue, it is totally your business.

[normanchateau]

We also have a "kick-a-kitten-for-distance" sporting league. It's only amateur right now, but we're hoping it will be an Olympic demonstration event by 2014.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Canada also makes a sport of dwarf tossing. It's perfectly legal despite the efforts of one Ontario politician to criminalize it:

http://www.ontla.on.ca/house-proceedings/t...025.htm#PARA511

[ToadBrother]

Definitely, that is exactly what I believe.

Which is rather sad. High ideals seem out of place in a world where the only thing that matters is whether your comfortable or not.

I don't care much about abstract concept.

Doubtless, because abstract concepts require some sense of things greater than yourself.

I care more about my daily life and people around me. I feel uncomfortable on so many real everyday life things happened here that make it no better than another place.

That's pretty bizarre. I'd say Canada is significantly better than a lot of places. We have our homeless problems, but they are dwarfed by the uneven economic advances of places like China and India.

Even something are worse, that is natural.

About the current western democracy, I have posted a lot on how big businesses manipulate it. for example, this one I just posted yesterday: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....mp;#entry475270 All have references and original place where it come from.

Yes, big business can have an unwholesome effect. But at the end of the day, big business doesn't get to vote. The great leveler is the ballot box.

[Michael Hardner]

bjre,

I don't know, if you willing to argue, it is totally your business.

The point is, you can't argue a subjective thing such as "which is better, freedom or comfort ?". It's like arguing "which is better an apple or an orange ?".

You may prefer to have full meals in jail over eating sparse meals in freedom. What is to be said about that ? I do find it odd that you feel that a state that doesn't allow you to speak freely is the same as an essentially free state with problems such as Canada.

But then again, I once had a dog who preferred to stay in his carrying cage.

[bjre]

bjre,

The point is, you can't argue a subjective thing such as "which is better, freedom or comfort ?". It's like arguing "which is better an apple or an orange ?".

You may prefer to have full meals in jail over eating sparse meals in freedom. What is to be said about that ? I do find it odd that you feel that a state that doesn't allow you to speak freely is the same as an essentially free state with problems such as Canada.

But then again, I once had a dog who preferred to stay in his carrying cage.

I don't care much about if this place is better than another place.

I care more about current place where I am living.

When so many ugly things happened and you found it is not likely that some bad situation can be changed in your life time, will you still happy about the democracy that suppose to be a system that can improve your life? So you still think it is useful?

[ToadBrother]

I don't care much about if this place is better than another place.

I care more about current place where I am living.

When so many ugly things happened and you found it is not likely that some bad situation can be changed in your life time, will you still happy about the democracy that suppose to be a system that can improve your life? So you still think it is useful?

Yes, it is useful, because ultimately we are the brick wall that a government hits.

[Michael Hardner]

bjre

I don't care much about if this place is better than another place.

I care more about current place where I am living.

You don't care much ? Ok. But are you saying that this place is better then ? You said they were 'the same'.

When so many ugly things happened and you found it is not likely that some bad situation can be changed in your life time, will you still happy about the democracy that suppose to be a system that can improve your life? So you still think it is useful?

I don't really understand. I believe a lot can be changed in my lifetime. As for my life, I don't see how government policy could make my life much better than it is .

[bjre]

bjre

You don't care much ? Ok. But are you saying that this place is better then ? You said they were 'the same'.

That is because you keep assert one place is better than another and I don't agree with you. I don't care much does not necessary mean I have no opinion.

I don't really understand. I believe a lot can be changed in my lifetime. As for my life, I don't see how government policy could make my life much better than it is .

Changes happen in everywhere, new technologies significantly improved people's everyday life in many places. I believe this even helps some very poor countries as well. That is not what I am talking about.

What I mean is the laws such as government grant CAS the power to kidnap kids from people's home; The mechanism that enable interest group push legislation to take away people's right like use of natural health products. The mechanism that make interest group pass new laws in a hidden way and many others. No matter what police do no not do when in need, no one can sue them and charge them. This kind of things keep taking away your rights and freedoms and make Canada a worse place.

Will this mechanism change in your life time? I don't think it is likely.

Edited October 23, 2009 by bjre

[Michael Hardner]

bjre,

That is because you keep assert one place is better than another and I don't agree with you. I don't care much does not necessary mean I have no opinion.

That's overly simplistic. I don't think it would be meaningful to say Canada is better than China, but I would say that you have greater freedom of expression here, as that's usually defined.

QUOTE (Michael Hardner @ Oct 23 2009, 11:10 AM) *

I don't really understand. I believe a lot can be changed in my lifetime. As for my life, I don't see how government policy could make my life much better than it is .

Changes happen in everywhere, new technologies significantly improved people's everyday life in many places. I believe this even helps some very poor countries as well. That is not what I am talking about.

What I mean is the laws such as government grant CAS the power to kidnap kids from people's home; The mechanism that enable interest group push legislation to take away people's right like use of natural health products. The mechanism that make interest group pass new laws in a hidden way and many others. No matter what police do no not do when in need, no one can sue them and charge them. This kind of things keep taking away your rights and freedoms and make Canada a worse place.

Will this mechanism change in your life time? I don't think it is likely.

None of these examples are significant to my life, nor do I see them as taking away my rights and freedoms. If the government is taking away the right to use natural products, I trust that there's a good reason for it. I have seen some of the 'herbal' remedies, and the ingredients are horrifying in many of them.

The government also restricts your "freedom" to take methamphetamines, and I'm glad they do.

[ToadBrother]

None of these examples are significant to my life, nor do I see them as taking away my rights and freedoms. If the government is taking away the right to use natural products, I trust that there's a good reason for it. I have seen some of the 'herbal' remedies, and the ingredients are horrifying in many of them.

The government also restricts your "freedom" to take methamphetamines, and I'm glad they do.

The thing is that they're not. What they are doing in restricting the sale of such products. Bjre has neglected to actually look at the bill in question. Of course a regulatory bill is going to have enforcement clauses, I mean, it wouldn't be much of a regulation if it didn't. This is no different than any other product being sold, inspectors have the right to make spot inspections and to seize products that they may deem dangerous to the health and welfare of Canadians.

Bjre, who seems to frantically run around on Google trying to find these sorts of articles, has hit upon a bunch of whacko natural product quacks who don't want their products put under any sort of regime (though they do want the power to label their products any way they see fit, seeing as many of them are little more than snake oil dealers). These natural products "advocates" (read salesmen) have been spreading disinformation about this bill since last year. In bjre's case, he simply has never bothered looking at the legsilation in question, in the case of the natural health "advocates", they're simply lying.

[Michael Hardner]

TB

Bjre, who seems to frantically run around on Google trying to find these sorts of articles, has hit upon a bunch of whacko natural product quacks who don't want their products put under any sort of regime (though they do want the power to label their products any way they see fit, seeing as many of them are little more than snake oil dealers). These natural products "advocates" (read salesmen) have been spreading disinformation about this bill since last year. In bjre's case, he simply has never bothered looking at the legsilation in question, in the case of the natural health "advocates", they're simply lying.

That's remarkable.

That leaves basically this CAS issue he has then.

bjre - do you have a thread with the facts of the CAS case?

[bjre]

The thing is that they're not. What they are doing in restricting the sale of such products. Bjre has neglected to actually look at the bill in question. Of course a regulatory bill is going to have enforcement clauses, I mean, it wouldn't be much of a regulation if it didn't. This is no different than any other product being sold, inspectors have the right to make spot inspections and to seize products that they may deem dangerous to the health and welfare of Canadians.

So after they restricting sale, where can ordinary people buy it when they need? They need to plan it in their own garden? Or fly to another country to buy it? If those are cost too much, they have to ask for medical companies who push the laws. That is what they want.

Bjre, who seems to frantically run around on Google trying to find these sorts of articles, has hit upon a bunch of whacko natural product quacks who don't want their products put under any sort of regime (though they do want the power to label their products any way they see fit, seeing as many of them are little more than snake oil dealers). These natural products "advocates" (read salesmen) have been spreading disinformation about this bill since last year. In bjre's case, he simply has never bothered looking at the legsilation in question, in the case of the natural health "advocates", they're simply lying.

The inspector is will just as CAS social worker has “RIGHT” to do whatever they think it is easy to earn money. Ordinary people has no “RIGHT” even talk. What a civilized robber. Set a game rule first, then take whatever they like, if you don't agree, they have jail.

You want me to read it, ok show you a few lines:

23. (4) An inspector who is carrying out their functions may enter on or pass through or over private property without being liable for doing so and without the owner of the property having the right to object to that use of the property.

23. (2) The inspector may

(a) examine or test anything — and take samples free of charge of an article to which this Act or the regulations apply — that is found in the place;

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/P...&File=84#20

So that inspectors is more than a cop (and has more power than CAS social worker as well), he can enter your home and office to light a candle, although you can not do that in his office. lol

Edited October 24, 2009 by bjre

[bjre]

TB

That's remarkable.

That leaves basically this CAS issue he has then.

bjre - do you have a thread with the facts of the CAS case?

OK let me talk in this way.

Why we need C51, it is said to restrict natural health products.

Then,

1. How many people die of natural health products in Canada each year?

2. How many people commit suicide after CAS involved into their private family things? (include how many are after use antidepressants recommended by them that makes medical firms earns a lot.)

I believe who want to push the legislation should give these two numbers first and compare them first to see which should have priority.