Women in Somalia forced by hardliners to shake their breasts

[Guest TrueMetis]

Well maybe it's just me but i really don t see the connection to Somalia and Seal Hunting

which by the way many are opposed to here in NS as well..............but hey fill your boots

if you think you can draw a comparison between the brutality in Somalia and Seal Hunting

in Canada....

The comparision is that some people think that people from NS can't progress and you think people from somalia can't progress both of which are untrue.

Edited October 23, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Guest TrueMetis]

Nova Scotians beat seals, and Somalis beat women, so it's practically the same thing.

-k

Already explained that isn't what I was comparing.

[Guest American Woman]

Question posed was "what should we in the west do about this situation?"

And my answer remains: nothing.

I don't care what you think we should do since that's not what my post was about. The issue I was responding to is your expectations for others to speak up, as you yourself don't feel the need to speak up.

I certainly do speak up when my government does something I disagree with.

So you speak up when your government does something you don't agree with, but not in other situations. You selectively speak up. Got'cha.

And when moderate Muslims decline the opportunity to speak out against wacko-Islamists, people draw conclusions as well.

Some people do. Some don't. And as I pointed out, those who "draw conclusions" are generally the ones who won't listen when moderate Muslims do speak out. They are the ones who insist that Islam is a violent religion.

I have little concern as to whether the Muslim world likes me. I couldn't care less, in fact.

Yet you're saying the extremists are part of the Muslim world. So I guess you don't care that they're committing acts of terror because they view us negatively. That's fine. But here's something that might be a shock to you: I'm guessing Joe Muslim down the street doesn't care what you think of him, either.

However, Muslims living in western countries tell us that they're very concerned about how they're viewed by the rest of us.

So evidently they are speaking out. How else would you know that?

I'm not talking about Muslims attempting to defend/justify/excuse their faith to the rest of us. I'm talking about Muslims confronting Muslim extremism.

You mean take up arms? Because in case you haven't noticed, in spite of the number of times I've repeated it, moderate Muslims have been the target of extremists. As has already been pointed out, this very thread is about exactly that. Furthermore, this article, in this thread, has mentioned that some Somalis are speaking out. It also explains what happens to those who do.

That's like arguing that the Inquisition wasn't a Christian problem because most of the victims were Christians.

Not quite, but I think you already know that.

If some fringe kooks are doing stuff in the name of the faith, it's a problem for the faith.

Says you. Some people see the extremists as the problem, not the faith.

Again, I'm not talking about having some Muslim clerics tell *us* that their religion is peaceful and that this nonsense is not part of Islam. I'm talking about Muslim clearings telling *the thugs* that their religion is peaceful and that this nonsense is not part of Islam.

You think "the thugs" aren't aware of what the moderates are saying? What the Muslim victims of their extremism are saying? Or do you think moderate Muslims should be arranging a meeting with bin Laden/al Qaeda/the Taliban et al? Perhaps if they met over tea, they'd see the light.

I do think that if religious leaders denounced this activity, it could make a difference. It might not make any difference to the extremists themselves, but everybody else might be less accepting of this behavior if it was made clear that this *isn't* part of Islam.

Sounds pretty contradictory to what you just said. I'll repeat it now: I'm not talking about having some Muslim clerics tell *us* that their religion is peaceful and that this nonsense is not part of Islam.

And until it makes a difference to the extremists, what do you honestly expect to change?

You seem to have such a keen memory for things I say, so you'll remember that the other part of that was that I'm passionate about standing up for myself because nobody else is going to do it for me. Muslims will have to figure out how to deal with this on their own, because the west isn't going back to Somalia any time soon. The west can't even keep Somalis from pirating ships at sea, let alone police the streets of Mogadishu.

I have a "keen memory" for everything, especially ignorant comments.

Are Muslims asking you to "figure it out" for them? And do you think moderate Muslims worldwide are obligated to go over there and "fix it?" As for the Somalis, have you even comprehended the fact that some are protesting? And if so, do you recall what's happening to those who do speak up/protest?

The Muslim world, if they care about their brothers and sisters in Somalia, can try to do something to help-- speak out, apply moral pressure, issue religious decrees, maybe something else. Or, I guess, they can chose not to.

You mean the way Christians are always right in the picture when "their brothers and sisters" are being targeted? The way we see bands of Christians on the scene "helping their brothers and sisters" when other Christians violently protest abortion clinics here in our own countries?

If we in the west were to involve ourselves in every situation that offends our sensibilities, well, in order of priorities, I don' t think that the Somali Bra And Beard Police rank in the top 50.

Did I say I thought the West should be involved? Did you even read my response to you and comprehend what it was about?

[wulf42]

The comparision is that some people think that people from NS can't progress and you think people from somalia can't progress both of which are untrue.

Really............i wasn t aware people in NS rode around in wooden boats robbing and attacking

ships....or carried AK-47'S or killed and raped openly and forced sharia law on people or have

no existing government but instead have warlords rule the streets killing and stealing whatever!

....yes they are the same aren t they............... God almighty

you and Kimmy aren't the most educated folks around here are ya??

[Guest TrueMetis]

Really............i wasn t aware people in NS rode around in wooden boats robbing and attacking

ships....or carried AK-47'S or killed and raped openly and forced sharia law on people or have

no existing government but instead have warlords rule the streets killing and stealing whatever!

....yes they are the same aren t they............... God almighty

you and Kimmy aren't the most educated folks around here are ya??

Did you even read what I wrote?

[wulf42]

Did you even read what I wrote?

Oop's maybe i jumped a little fast on this one...i was in a hurry...sorry!

However i still think Somalia is 100 years behind!!

Edited October 23, 2009 by wulf42

[Guest TrueMetis]

Oop's maybe i jumped a little fast on this one...i was in a hurry

However i still think Somalia is 100 years behind!!

I would say 200, but given the right oppurtunities they could progress faster than most would believe.

[wulf42]

I would say 200, but given the right oppurtunities they could progress faster than most would believe.

I Agree.............but with dangerous warlords and the only law is the guy's

with the AK-47'S there is little chance, until someone rises up and really takes

control it will stay the same.

[eyeball]

Shouldn't take long...Cool. Can't wait.

[dre]

Stop ripping on Somalia! Its a true libertarian paradise!

[Oleg Bach]

Stop ripping on Somalia! Its a true libertarian paradise!

Yah no government! This boob thread has gone on a bit to long, don't you think?

[M.Dancer]

This article makes it pretty clear that arms from several nations including allies of ours, are being sold in Somalia.

I would like to say your cluelessness is refreshing....

Have you found that list of governents selling arms to somalia yet or are you going to continue to waste bandwidth?

That article makes it clear weapons are sold in Somalia....who is providing them it doesn;t say.

Because the first link doesn;t support you whineyness, I can't be bothered with the others.

[jbg]

Most zealous animal rights advocates are clinging to sanity by a very, very tiny thread.

On my first blind date with the woman who's now my wife, she was wearing a fox coat. When I asked her what activities she was in she mentioned Islamic Jihad of New York City, and some publishing trade groups. When she asked me, I told her I was an animal rights activist. I said I felt sorry for foxes caught in leghold traps.

And that includes virtually all of those so worried about the seal hunt.

I donated a fair amount of money in a successful effort to thwart the annual Saskatchewan seal hunt, where many seal pupls, in full view of Parliament in Regina, were clubbed to death.

Next year, on to Edmonton and Alberta's hunt.

[kimmy]

I don't care what you think we should do since that's not what my post was about. The issue I was responding to is your expectations for others to speak up, as you yourself don't feel the need to speak up.

People can speak up or not speak up as they choose.

On this issue, I would hope that mainstream Muslims speak up, because western secular democracy isn't going to.

So you speak up when your government does something you don't agree with, but not in other situations. You selectively speak up. Got'cha.

Absolutely. I selectively speak up. When I speak up, it is because I have selected to do so.

I decide to speak out on an issue, based on criteria like:

-does this affect me?

-do I have strong opinions on the subject?

-do I know enough about the subject to contribute something meaningful to the discussion?

-are there questions I could ask or ideas I could suggest that might enhance the discussion?

I'm pretty sure that you're selective about where you offer your opinion too. I bet I could find at topic on this board that you haven't ventured an opinion on. It might be hard, but I bet there's one or two.

Show me somebody who offers their opinion on every single subject without discrimination, and I'll show you a blowhard.

And if you're still frosted, after 2 months or whatever it is, that I didn't venture an opinion on Argus's comments about the work habits of Somalis, I'm sorry, I just don't have anything to offer you.

Yet you're saying the extremists are part of the Muslim world. So I guess you don't care that they're committing acts of terror because they view us negatively. That's fine. But here's something that might be a shock to you: I'm guessing Joe Muslim down the street doesn't care what you think of him, either.

Joe Muslim down the street might not, but advocacy groups like the Canadian Muslim Congress certainly seem to.

So evidently they are speaking out. How else would you know that?

Whining about how mainstream Canadians view Islam isn't the kind of speaking out that the situation requires.

I think it might help "Joe Muslim down the street" and the Canadian Muslim Congress to convince Canadians they're different from the kooks if they denounced kookery.

If you don't agree, I guess we'll just have to leave it there; there's obviously nothing to be gained from discussing it further.

You mean take up arms?

yuh. When I said "speak out, apply moral pressure, issue religious decrees, maybe something else", that's exactly what I was getting at: violent confrontation.

I have a "keen memory" for everything, especially ignorant comments.

cool. I'll be sure to remind you of that "your media cannot report on ongoing trials" thing you just posted every few months.

Are Muslims asking you to "figure it out" for them? And do you think moderate Muslims worldwide are obligated to go over there and "fix it?" As for the Somalis, have you even comprehended the fact that some are protesting? And if so, do you recall what's happening to those who do speak up/protest?

Muslims worldwide are not *obliged* to do anything. They can sit silent and endure this blight on their faith, if that's what they wish. The typical Somali-on-the-street may have no way of standing up to a gun-toting gang of kooks, but what would be wrong with Muslim clerics denouncing the thugs? What would be wrong with Islamic nations denouncing it? If Makmood wants to be seen as a leader for the whole Muslim community, what would be wrong with him showing some leadership on this one?

You mean the way Christians are always right in the picture when "their brothers and sisters" are being targeted? The way we see bands of Christians on the scene "helping their brothers and sisters" when other Christians violently protest abortion clinics here in our own countries?

You're not under the impression that I'm a Christian, are you? If you're trying to provoke some sort of reaction where I make some sort of desperate attempt to apologize for Christians and claim "well that's totally different", ...well, it's actually not different at all.

In fact it's a good example of what I'm talking about. If Christians stay silent when abortion-providers are murdered in the name of JEEE-zus, their silence will speak for them as well, and what it says is not flattering.

If some whacko pro-life fanatic starts sniping at doctors who perform abortions, it is devastatingly bad publicity for the entire pro-life movement. It is a *big problem* for the entire pro-life movement. Such incidents, even as rare as they have been, have been and continue to be used to embarrass the entire pro-life movement, even though most of them are undoubtedly peaceful people who would not commit murder. And pro-life activists, being painfully aware of all of this, do everything they can to distance themselves from those who use violence in the name of the pro-life movement.

During the year I spent at college, I noticed that the campus pro-life club was involved in things like rape awareness and raising money for battered womens' shelters, probably in some measure because they believed that abusive relationships and rape are contributors to abortion, but also likely in some measure because they wanted to combat the idea that their views are anti-female.

Did I say I thought the West should be involved?

I don't care if you did or didn't. It's pertinent.

Did you even read my response to you

sure did

and comprehend what it was about?

Well, maybe. What I think you're trying to convey is that you think my prior expression of my right to keep my mouth shut is at odds with my belief that the Muslim world ought to speak out against this.

But what I think it's actually about is you're still mad from the last movie and have seized upon this topic as a chance to come at me with a whole bunch more of your "Got'cha ™."

-k

[Guest American Woman]

What I think you're trying to convey is that you think my prior expression of my right to keep my mouth shut is at odds with my belief that the Muslim world ought to speak out against this.

By George, I think you've got it!

[kimmy]

By George, I think you've got it!

Then your whole argument is based on a false premise.

I've never questioned their right to not comment. I just question why they do.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Then your whole argument is based on a false premise.

I've never questioned their right to not comment. I just question why they do

Thanks for clarifying the for me, because that's so much better. You, who doesn't feel the need to speak up yourself, questions why others don't.

Got'cha.

[kimmy]

Thanks for clarifying the for me, because that's so much better. You, who doesn't feel the need to speak up yourself, questions why others don't.

As I've said already, I'm passionate about speaking up for myself and about anything I've got strong feelings or opinions about.

Which is why I find it quite perplexing that the leaders of the Muslim faith seem to be so silent about issues like this.

Perhaps they just don't have strong feelings or opinions about it, or they don't think it affects them.

Got'cha.

lame

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Which is why I find it quite perplexing that the leaders of the Muslim faith seem to be so silent about issues like this.

Perhaps they just don't have strong feelings or opinions about it, or they don't think it affects them.

Or perhaps they have spoken up about it, and you're just unaware of it. I'm guessing it wouldn't make front page news worldwide the way the actions of the extremists do. So how would you know if they are speaking up or not?

[Guest American Woman]

Just a few examples of Muslims speaking out:

link

link

link

link

link

link

Edited October 24, 2009 by American Woman

[naomiglover]

As I've said already, I'm passionate about speaking up for myself and about anything I've got strong feelings or opinions about.

Which is why I find it quite perplexing that the leaders of the Muslim faith seem to be so silent about issues like this.

Perhaps they just don't have strong feelings or opinions about it, or they don't think it affects them.

lame

-k

You mentioned the Muslim Canadian Congress. Maybe you should look into whether they have spoken out before announcing that they haven't spoken out:

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/articles.html#terror

[jbg]

You mentioned the Muslim Canadian Congress. Maybe you should look into whether they have spoken out before announcing that they haven't spoken out:

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/articles.html#terror

I read many of the links and frankly they don't face up to the prevalence of sorting out disputes using violence. I was underwhelmed.

[Guest American Woman]

I read many of the links and frankly they don't face up to the prevalence of sorting out disputes using violence. I was underwhelmed.

So what do you expect from them? What would satisfy you?

[kimmy]

Just a few examples of Muslims speaking out:

link

link

link

link

link

link

Yes, I'm aware that many Muslims united to denounce terrorism. So I don't see why they couldn't unite against other expressions of extremism as well.

You mentioned the Muslim Canadian Congress. Maybe you should look into whether they have spoken out before announcing that they haven't spoken out:

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/articles.html#terror

I mis-spoke when I referred to the "Canadian Muslim Congress". I meant to refer to the "Canadian Islamic Congress", not the "Muslim Canadian Congress".

The "Muslim Canadian Congress" is Tarek Fatah's group; I've mentioned Tarek Fatah in this thread, and previously, as a Muslim who is confronting Muslim extremism.

I feel really bad that I wrote "Canadian Muslim Congress" when I meant to refer to the "Canadian Islamic Congress". I confused the similar names, but Tarek Fatah represents what I really respect, and the Canadian Islamic Congress represents the exact opposite.

-k

[eyeball]

It's not RAPE rape...

Fixed it for you.

Have you found that list of governents selling arms to somalia yet or are you going to continue to waste bandwidth?

Just scroll back up the page a bit.

That article makes it clear weapons are sold in Somalia....who is providing them it doesn;t say.

Perhaps that explains the other sources.

...I can't be bothered with the others.

That's probably what Whoopi said too.