Throw out 'bizarre' prostitution laws, court told

[Dave_ON]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/200...inalize685.html

This is an interesting article that raises several interesting points. One of which I didn't realize is that prostitution isn't technically illegal; just all activities associated with it are as the article explains.

One quote I think really sums up the issue that is facing our Country today is the need to separate moral preference from secular law.

Young said upholding the current laws on grounds of morality is "a good argument for [the] last century. It's not a great argument this century."

"Criminal law can support what are called core moral values, but it doesn't support moral preferences," he said. "And basically right now, the objective behind these laws are all secular, which is to prevent exploitation and to prevent nuisance."

I'm socially Liberal and believe that there needs to be a great many "moral preference" laws that need to be changed or repealed. This is something that has always been and always will be, it's my belief that regulation is the best form of management. The same would also apply to pot. Tax peoples vices like we do with gambling, liquor and cigarettes, and regulate them, history has shown prohibition to be vastly ineffective and expensive. Because it's unpalatable to some does not mean it should be illegal.

[Moonbox]

I'm socially Liberal and believe that there needs to be a great many "moral preference" laws that need to be changed or repealed. This is something that has always been and always will be, it's my belief that regulation is the best form of management. The same would also apply to pot. Tax peoples vices like we do with gambling, liquor and cigarettes, and regulate them, history has shown prohibition to be vastly ineffective and expensive. Because it's unpalatable to some does not mean it should be illegal.

I agree. Regulating prostitution does nothing but make it safer for the prostitutes themselves and the people who use them.

[Mr.Canada]

If it's going to taxed and licensed sure go for it. If it's not going to be regulated with hookers being tested regularly and such no thank you. It would put the public at too much risk.

If the goal is to get the hookers off the street corners then it's good if it's going to make the street level sex trade worse then it's bad. As with street level hooker come drugs and drug dealers and with drugs comes crime. With crime come violence.

Too many people are romanticizing the industry when in reality the lowest on the pole of this industry is really dirty with all the problems listed above.

[ToadBrother]

If it's going to taxed and licensed sure go for it. If it's not going to be regulated with hookers being tested regularly and such no thank you. It would put the public at too much risk.

Almost sounds like making them a Crown Corporation!

If the goal is to get the hookers off the street corners then it's good if it's going to make the street level sex trade worse then it's bad. As with street level hooker come drugs and drug dealers and with drugs comes crime. With crime come violence.

Too many people are romanticizing the industry when in reality the lowest on the pole of this industry is really dirty with all the problems listed above.

I can't imagine anyone romanticizing people selling their bodies for sex. Still, it's heartening that even a social conservative like yourself has got the point. The Victorian anti-prostitution laws we inherited have not stopped prostitution. What has consistently happened since this particularly set of morality laws came into force is even increased marginalization of probably the single most marginalized group in our society. There's no perfect solution, but legalized brothels might just go some distance to preventing the Jack the Rippers and Willie Pictons of the world from what has long been the easiest of prey.

We're never ever ever ever going to be able to stop prostitution. Even in hyper-conservative countries like Iran where one get stoned for that sort of activity, prostitutes exist, which tells you that it's economics at its most basic level; there's a demand, and there's someone willing to fill it.

[eyeball]

We're never ever ever ever going to be able to stop prostitution. Even in hyper-conservative countries like Iran where one get stoned for that sort of activity, prostitutes exist, which tells you that it's economics at its most basic level; there's a demand, and there's someone willing to fill it.

I just can't see the demand for state enforced morality ever going away myself. I predict the law will stand as it is and that moral preferences will generally be maintained if not increased throughout our justice system for at least several more generations.

[wyly]

what consenting adults do behind closed doors is their business alone...it's already been done in several countries successfully, it's state controled(taxes, health standards) and safer for all involved and doesn't lead to moral collapse or increased crime...crime and criminal will be around regardless, removing a prohibition on the sex trade weakens criminals hold over that industry...anything that is restricted will draw criminals...

[Who's Doing What?]

When you add up the money spent fighting Prostitution and Marijuana, and the money lost by not taxing Prostitution and Marijuana I think that on a purely fiscal basis they should be legalized.

One point for the legalization of Prostitution is the safety of the women involved. I think it is a valid point. Women are exploited and in some cases kidnapped and forced to work. They get hooked on drugs, beaten and generally abused by their pimps. Then there is the danger from clients who every once in a while can be a sicko pig farmer who kills them and feeds them to his pigs.

I would take a good look at Amsterdam and how well their Redlight District is working. See if it is something to try here. If not that idea then atleast some regulation to make sure that active Prostitutes are tested for STD's, and have a safe place to ply their trade.

[Michael Hardner]

CBC Metro Morning had Young and a Toronto Madam as guests on Monday. She seemed to be pro de-criminalization and against regulation.

Although regulation does provide some of the safeguards mentioned on this thread, it also risks making the government into the world's largest pimp, much as they have become the bookies of Canada.

Let's consider gambling for a moment. Governments are in a conflict of interest with regards to that particular vice. They're supposed to look out for the welfare of their citizens, yet they also victimize gambling addicts to a great degree in order to get tax revenue.

While there are indeed women who wouldn't bat an eye over becoming a prostitute, it's not a job like any other. What would happen if a woman on EI refused to take a job in the sex industry ? That certainly has happened somewhere in the world. The government could find itself in a position where it could solve a lot of economic problems by bulking up its pimping business.

Morality aside, is that the type of country we want ? I don't know how to answer that.

[wyly]

When you add up the money spent fighting Prostitution and Marijuana, and the money lost by not taxing Prostitution and Marijuana I think that on a purely fiscal basis they should be legalized.

One point for the legalization of Prostitution is the safety of the women involved. I think it is a valid point. Women are exploited and in some cases kidnapped and forced to work. They get hooked on drugs, beaten and generally abused by their pimps. Then there is the danger from clients who every once in a while can be a sicko pig farmer who kills them and feeds them to his pigs.

I would take a good look at Amsterdam and how well their Redlight District is working. See if it is something to try here. If not that idea then atleast some regulation to make sure that active Prostitutes are tested for STD's, and have a safe place to ply their trade.

prostitution has been with us forever and always will be so lets accept it, regulate it and make it safer for everyone...I would look at at how other countries do it as well, Netherlands is one, I've been to A'dams red light district but dutch ahve a more laisser faire attitude to life than canadians so that may not fit... Germany, Arizona, New Zealand, Australia, Japan take ideas from all and come up with something that would work best for our society...

Edited October 7, 2009 by wyly

[wyly]

CBC Metro Morning had Young and a Toronto Madam as guests on Monday. She seemed to be pro de-criminalization and against regulation.

Although regulation does provide some of the safeguards mentioned on this thread, it also risks making the government into the world's largest pimp, much as they have become the bookies of Canada.

Let's consider gambling for a moment. Governments are in a conflict of interest with regards to that particular vice. They're supposed to look out for the welfare of their citizens, yet they also victimize gambling addicts to a great degree in order to get tax revenue.

While there are indeed women who wouldn't bat an eye over becoming a prostitute, it's not a job like any other. What would happen if a woman on EI refused to take a job in the sex industry ? That certainly has happened somewhere in the world. The government could find itself in a position where it could solve a lot of economic problems by bulking up its pimping business.

Morality aside, is that the type of country we want ? I don't know how to answer that.

we regulate all types of occupations...requiring prostitutes to operate in areas zoned for that business or requiring medical health checks wouldn't make the government pimps...treat them as we would any other business selling a service...

[Dave_ON]

Let's consider gambling for a moment. Governments are in a conflict of interest with regards to that particular vice. They're supposed to look out for the welfare of their citizens, yet they also victimize gambling addicts to a great degree in order to get tax revenue.

Morality aside, is that the type of country we want ? I don't know how to answer that.

That's true that in fact governments are accessories to people's addictions and vices. We can't simply limit this to gambling, the same thing happens with tobacco and alcohol.

In terms of prostitution though, I think it's important to realize that the problem will be there regardless of whether it is regulated, decriminalized or illegal. So that leaves the question of what is the best way to manage the situation. To me it seems it should be managed the same way we do with all the other legal vices via taxation and regulation.

On the bright side the legalization would really take the heat off the government in regards to the HST.

[ToadBrother]

CBC Metro Morning had Young and a Toronto Madam as guests on Monday. She seemed to be pro de-criminalization and against regulation.

Although regulation does provide some of the safeguards mentioned on this thread, it also risks making the government into the world's largest pimp, much as they have become the bookies of Canada.

Let's consider gambling for a moment. Governments are in a conflict of interest with regards to that particular vice. They're supposed to look out for the welfare of their citizens, yet they also victimize gambling addicts to a great degree in order to get tax revenue.

While there are indeed women who wouldn't bat an eye over becoming a prostitute, it's not a job like any other. What would happen if a woman on EI refused to take a job in the sex industry ? That certainly has happened somewhere in the world. The government could find itself in a position where it could solve a lot of economic problems by bulking up its pimping business.

Morality aside, is that the type of country we want ? I don't know how to answer that.

Look at the list of women that Willie Picton killed, and then come back and tell me what kind of country you want.

As to your EI argument. Skydiving is legal, and yet I don't see EI forcing people to become skydiving instructors. Your argument betrays your ignorance of how EI works, and may actually qualify as one of the sillier arguments.

Prostitution cannot be stopped. Even the harshest possible laws do not stop it. What we can do, as a society, is try to mitigate its effects as much as possible.

[jdobbin]

This is an interesting article that raises several interesting points. One of which I didn't realize is that prostitution isn't technically illegal; just all activities associated with it are as the article explains.

I have pointed this out to people many times and they don't believe it.

An honest debate would be welcome for this. Don't know if we will get one.

[Mr.Canada]

I have pointed this out to people many times and they don't believe it.

An honest debate would be welcome for this. Don't know if we will get one.

Quite right dobbin. I posted this for all the people that doubt you dobbin.

In Canada, prostitution itself (exchanging sex for money) is not illegal, but most activities surrounding it (such as operating a brothel, being found in a brothel, procuring or soliciting in a public place) are illegal, making it difficult to engage in prostitution without breaking any law.

Although Canada is a federation, the criminal law applies throughout the country, the laws are the same all over Canada.

Soliciting in a public place is illegal (automobiles are considered public space if they can be seen). Running, owning or occupying a brothel is also illegal.

Private communication (telephone, e-mail etc) for the purpose of prostitution is legal.

Source

The problems with making brothels or places like this legal is that it wouldn't really save any women.

The most common reason supporters of prostitution being a legit profession give is that it would keep women from being victims. This just isn't true because the majority of women who are victims are a)drug addicted and/or B ) have mental health issues. Many of the women are also Native and from the reserves.

If brothels were legal the women that prostitution supporters are claiming they're trying to help wouldn't go to the brothels to ply their trade. They'd still be out on the streets due to a) their drug addiction and/or b)their mental health issues.

Legalizing brothels or prostitution or whatever you want to call it would only serve to make the situation worse as the type of people that would use brothels would only be a very small amount of the entire trade.

The women who are most often victimized, assaulted or what have you work the streets and are in the worst part of town because that's where the drugs are. Think lower East side of Vancouver. These women aren't going to work in a brothel.

In addition the sex trade is run by the pimps. How are they planning to get around that? It's not like the pimps are going to just give up their girls because it's legal now.

In my view if these people were really interested in helping the prostitutes that end up as victims they'd be supporting more funding for Mental Health and addiction treatment.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[Topaz]

IF you GUYS want a serious debate then answer this, why? Why do guys turn to pros. on the street and wouldn't society do more to keep women from turning into one?

[Mr.Canada]

IF you GUYS want a serious debate then answer this, why? Why do guys turn to pros. on the street and wouldn't society do more to keep women from turning into one?

Hold on Topaz. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. It isn't anyone's fault but their own for becoming a prostitute. Everyone has free will to choose as they wish.

[Michael Hardner]

wyly

we regulate all types of occupations...requiring prostitutes to operate in areas zoned for that business or requiring medical health checks wouldn't make the government pimps...treat them as we would any other business selling a service...

A separate tax on them would thereby NOT treat them as any other business and would make the government into a pimping service .

Dave

That's true that in fact governments are accessories to people's addictions and vices. We can't simply limit this to gambling, the same thing happens with tobacco and alcohol.

In terms of prostitution though, I think it's important to realize that the problem will be there regardless of whether it is regulated, decriminalized or illegal. So that leaves the question of what is the best way to manage the situation. To me it seems it should be managed the same way we do with all the other legal vices via taxation and regulation.

On the bright side the legalization would really take the heat off the government in regards to the HST.

This is what I mean by 'pimping'. The goal of making the girls safer, taking the pimps out of it is noble, but making them into a revenue source means that the government would now be better off promoting prostitution, ie pimping.

ToadB

Look at the list of women that Willie Picton killed, and then come back and tell me what kind of country you want.

As to your EI argument. Skydiving is legal, and yet I don't see EI forcing people to become skydiving instructors. Your argument betrays your ignorance of how EI works, and may actually qualify as one of the sillier arguments.

Prostitution cannot be stopped. Even the harshest possible laws do not stop it. What we can do, as a society, is try to mitigate its effects as much as possible.

I don't want serial killers, but that's a loaded question of course. Would decriminalized prostitution absolutely protect women from predators ? No.

The EI argument actually happened in Europe somewhere, although I admit I don't have a link. Your example doesn't work because Skydiving Instructors need qualifications and sex trade workers don't. I know that this situation would not happen however what's to prevent the slippery slope, ie. that it would happen some day.

I'm in favour of decriminalization, however I do think that society needs to have a discussion about how we feel about vices as an industry. Is the gambling, drug, alcohol, and prostitution industry in the same class as all other services, products and what should our collective attitudes be towards them ?

I agree that criminalizing these industries is hypocritical and harmful, but legal/illegal is such a binary classification. I'd like to find a classification something in between that's a little deeper than that, and 'regulated' isn't it. Something that says these are industries that support a certain type of lifestyle that we want to dissuade people from living. Perhaps tobacco is a good model to follow.

Topaz

IF you GUYS want a serious debate then answer this, why? Why do guys turn to pros. on the street and wouldn't society do more to keep women from turning into one?

I think we're on the same page here. I'd like to hear your ideas.

[Who's Doing What?]

Hold on Topaz. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. It isn't anyone's fault but their own for becoming a prostitute. Everyone has free will to choose as they wish.

I am sure those who have been victims of human trafficking would disagree with that statement.

[Michael Hardner]

We all have choices, however we're susceptible to certain choices given our situation, choices that we could regret later. What do we do to those who would satisfy our basest requests in the hour of our need ?

We would pay them of course.

[eyeball]

A separate tax on them would thereby NOT treat them as any other business and would make the government into a pimping service .

By the same token, liquor and tobacco control acts make governments drug dealers.

I agree that criminalizing these industries is hypocritical and harmful, but legal/illegal is such a binary classification. I'd like to find a classification something in between that's a little deeper than that, and 'regulated' isn't it. Something that says these are industries that support a certain type of lifestyle that we want to dissuade people from living. Perhaps tobacco is a good model to follow.

What we need is overarching legislation that speaks to all vices in general and that removes vice from the criminal code. A better place to start following examples would be to revisit why the prohibition of alcohol was repealed.

Topaz

I think we're on the same page here. I'd like to hear your ideas.

I would too. I think if the authorities are spending less time continually trying to shut down vices that history has proven cannot be eliminated they would have more time to enforce laws that deal with things like violence, slavery, protecting children and so on. Prohibition is not preventing any of this from occuring now.

[Topaz]

Hold on Topaz. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. It isn't anyone's fault but their own for becoming a prostitute. Everyone has free will to choose as they wish.

It has more to do with mental health, how many young girls say, "daddy, when I grow up I want to be a prostitute". Sure everyone is suppose to responsible for their life but can you hold a person responsible if they mental health is off? There's also education or lack of it and perhaps more education should be done at the high school level before they get out into the REAL world.

[wyly]

wyly

A separate tax on them would thereby NOT treat them as any other business and would make the government into a pimping service .

income tax is not a separate tax...GS(service)T...it would be service, a business...

[Dave_ON]

The women who are most often victimized, assaulted or what have you work the streets and are in the worst part of town because that's where the drugs are. Think lower East side of Vancouver. These women aren't going to work in a brothel.

In addition the sex trade is run by the pimps. How are they planning to get around that? It's not like the pimps are going to just give up their girls because it's legal now.

In my view if these people were really interested in helping the prostitutes that end up as victims they'd be supporting more funding for Mental Health and addiction treatment.

This is precisely where regulation comes in. The same arguments were made when alcohol prohibition was considered but look at the liquor industry now. Bootlegging is illegal; the same would apply to unregistered brothels, and prostitutes what have you. As mentioned in the thread we can't eliminate prostitution we can only really manage it. Putting regulations in place, which would pay for it and then some via taxation would make the situation better.

Many countries have done this very successfully, when something illegal of course it's going to operate in the more seedy parts of town. If you legalize it you eliminate the need to hide in the less desirable parts of town. Amsterdam has done this with their zoning of the red light district. Similar measures could be taken here, it wouldn't change overnight but it would certainly do a lot to clean up the industry.

Pimps, drugs issues and all the other problems you mentioned would be greatly lessoned if the industry were controlled just like gambling, liquor and tobacco.

[ToadBrother]

It has more to do with mental health, how many young girls say, "daddy, when I grow up I want to be a prostitute". Sure everyone is suppose to responsible for their life but can you hold a person responsible if they mental health is off? There's also education or lack of it and perhaps more education should be done at the high school level before they get out into the REAL world.

Which will end prostitution how? I'll reiterate; if stoning them doesn't end prostitution, then how will anti-prostitution laws do any better?

Yes, lots of women, maybe even most, fall into prostitution as an end of the line way of making a living. Yes, many have substance-abuse issues. But at the end of the day, these women, or at least some proportion of them, will do it anyways, because prostitution has outlived every attempt to eradicate it.

Legislating morality doesn't work. The Victorian experiment was tried, it's failed, and with disastrous consequences.

[ToadBrother]

Hold on Topaz. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. It isn't anyone's fault but their own for becoming a prostitute. Everyone has free will to choose as they wish.

There's the fantasy illusion held by a lot conservatives and Libertarians that social barriers don't exist. I have no idea where they get it from, because it certainly has nothing to do with history or with economics.

These women end up at the margins for a great many reasons, but it's universally true that the one commodity that will sell even if you're on hard times, or your whole environment is coming down, is sex. Yes, you choose whether you're going to be a prostitute or not, but historically it's been a choice between selling your body or starving.