lictor616 Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 So it wasn't Marxism, but you're going to call it that because it's the closest thing history has had? The Communist Manifesto was written less than 200 years ago and it is one of the most important political, social, historical, and economic works of all time. The "utopia" hasn't come and probably never will, but that doesn't make the argument any less valid, nor does it make the fascists in communist clothes Marxists. what argument? what on earth are you on about? What valid argument can you gather from that tawdry and crude hoax called the Communist Manifesto? Can you name even one specifically? Important how? It was responsible for the greatest squandering of wealth life and resources ever? That it destroyed the order and stability of the world? That it created a nightmarish dystopia rather then a utopia wherever communism reeled its grotesque head in the world? That it swindled so many people? Fascists in communists clothes? What a shameful comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 what argument? what on earth are you on about? What valid argument can you gather from that tawdry and crude hoax called the Communist Manifesto? Can you name even one specifically?Important how? It was responsible for the greatest squandering of wealth life and resources ever? That it destroyed the order and stability of the world? That it created a nightmarish dystopia rather then a utopia wherever communism reeled its grotesque head in the world? That it swindled so many people? Fascists in communists clothes? What a shameful comment. Lictor - I will start a new thread on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Lictor - I will start a new thread on this one. So do you believe that capitalist corporatism in full bloom is very similar to communism...just a little more profitable ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Time for a new thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Until such time as somebody produces information to convince me otherwise, I think Morris is full of shit in claiming that most Canadians are well informed about the Holodomor. (likewise, the horrors of Pol Pot, or of Mao.) I think ToadBrother (who is certainly a bright and well informed person, probably much more so than the typical person on the street) probably illustrated the typical level of knowledge when he said of the millions who died under Stalin and Mao: "it wasn't any malice in particular, just arrogance and stupidity." I think that if I go to the grocery store or the mall or the library and ask people at random what they know about the Holocaust and about the other genocides we're discussing, I think the general level of information about the Holocaust will be much higher than about any of the other events. lictor,Why are you angry that one holocaust is more well known than another ? I don't understand that. Is one less deserving of being known than the other? -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) What could be more democratic than communism? While there may have never been a democratic communist state, even if there has been democratically elected communist leaders in South America, what could be more democratic than the ideals of commons and community? Power in the hands of people. That's not democratic? It could be argued that our current state is not any more democratic than a true communist state would be. Communism is egalitarian by nature. Under our current system, however, it could be argued that power is truly in the hands of a few powerful interests. The ideologies of Stalin and Mao were not the ideologies of Marx. Don't confuse their fascist dictatorships with Marxism proper. Those states are worthy of condemnation based on the atrocities that they committed. Although they were "communist" in a sense, it's dishonest to assume that those ideologies were proper communism. that's pathetic discounting.... not "proper" communism? what is there faux communism? Communism is a "theory" and collection of ideas ... the communist manifesto isn't very useful as a statecraft manual and has many internal contradictions... it is a thoroughly flawed piece if garbage. Real communism is unworkable because it is based on a miss reading of reality... and the reason is that communism is not a political ideology, it is a global conspiracy. And again, I could use the same exact excuse for Nazism... and say that national socialism is a great and noble ideology that merely went a bit wrong since it had to juggle a world war in the mean time... I could even support my argument... because life in nazi germany before the war was actually quite impressive: zero unemployment, a roaring economy, a confident and virile people, and a purposeful well oiled machinery of government. but of course if I were to suggest that... all of the red guards here would be apoplectic... Edited October 22, 2009 by lictor616 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 lictor,Why are you angry that one holocaust is more well known than another ? I don't understand that. Because my mind is offended by double standards... Why do we hear endless yammering about the holocaust and not so much as a peep as the comparatively worse Holodomor? If the point (as we're often assured) of "teaching the holocaust" and making it some sort of education pillar and ultra protected subject is to show people what happens when people turn bad...why not use the better example of what the communist butchers did? 7 to 10 million people liquidated, many in ways to horrible to recite here... in ONE YEAR... and we hear NOTHING about it... I find that very maddening and disturbing. add to that the 119 worldwide victims of communist atrocity all over the globe... and the double standard become even more obvious. My only question is why aren't you similarly distraught by this state of affairs and why are you seemingly surprised at my reaction? by the way i'll tell you why they don't talk about the holodomor and sometimes even censor it: its because the only reason they push the holocaust is that it serves a political agenda, it silences criticism of Jews (who are very powerful in this country and the US) and it favors their globalist internationalist (crypto-communist) agenda... it supplements their religion of Political Correctness and egalitarianism... they teach the holocaust because the perpetrators were nazis... and not EGALITARIANS... and they keep the holodomor hushed up because the perpetrators of THAT atrocity were all egalitarians... and the message they want to forcefeed us and our children is that: COMMUNIST SOCIALIST EGALITARIANS... are good guys... that's why... and its sickening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Because my mind is offended by double standards... Well The Cambodian genocide should really piss you off. In terms of iits impact, with 25% of the population extermininated, it was much more severe than the Ukrainian famine. On the other hand they aren't as white as you might prefer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Until such time as somebody produces information to convince me otherwise, I think Morris is full of shit in claiming that most Canadians are well informed about the Holodomor. (likewise, the horrors of Pol Pot, or of Mao.) Funny, you seem to be aware of the Famine.....and I picture you as an average canadian girl. The anniversary is coming up...lets see how many news itens we will find the 1st 2 weeks of November.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 7 to 10 million people liquidated, Probably not anywhere that many and liquidated implies they were executed. They weren't. Most died of either starvation or disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 lictor Because my mind is offended by double standards... Public interest doesn't follow a 'standard', and it never will. Why do we hear endless yammering about the holocaust and not so much as a peep as the comparatively worse Holodomor?If the point (as we're often assured) of "teaching the holocaust" and making it some sort of education pillar and ultra protected subject is to show people what happens when people turn bad...why not use the better example of what the communist butchers did? 7 to 10 million people liquidated, many in ways to horrible to recite here... in ONE YEAR... and we hear NOTHING about it... I find that very maddening and disturbing. add to that the 119 worldwide victims of communist atrocity all over the globe... and the double standard become even more obvious. My only question is why aren't you similarly distraught by this state of affairs and why are you seemingly surprised at my reaction? by the way i'll tell you why they don't talk about the holodomor and sometimes even censor it: its because the only reason they push the holocaust is that it serves a political agenda, it silences criticism of Jews (who are very powerful in this country and the US) and it favors their globalist internationalist (crypto-communist) agenda... it supplements their religion of Political Correctness and egalitarianism... they teach the holocaust because the perpetrators were nazis... and not EGALITARIANS... and they keep the holodomor hushed up because the perpetrators of THAT atrocity were all egalitarians... and the message they want to forcefeed us and our children is that: COMMUNIST SOCIALIST EGALITARIANS... are good guys... that's why... and its sickening. Publicize your history. Talk about it. But it's petty to compare it to another atrocity, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Well The Cambodian genocide should really piss you off. In terms of iits impact, with 25% of the population extermininated, it was much more severe than the Ukrainian famine.On the other hand they aren't as white as you might prefer.... cambodia was bad enough... but 1.2 to 2 million dead in 4 years would be still less the 7 to 10 in ONE year... if you follow my arithmetic. couldn't you have figured that out by your lonesome dancer? how do you figure that an annual death rate of 7 to 10 million people is "less worse" then a yearly death toll of about 300 000 or 500 000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 lictorPublic interest doesn't follow a 'standard', and it never will. Publicize your history. Talk about it. But it's petty to compare it to another atrocity, IMO. ahahhahhah! public interest is by and large CREATED... its not as if the TV viewing population got together and said... "meh! we tired of hearing about the holodomor"... THERE IS NO COVERAGE ON THE HOLODOMOR... A TINY fraction of canada's population are even aware of what happened... the fact you aren't moved by 7 million people dying in one year and don't see what the big deal is... is proof of your bias here.... if it where fascists who would have been responsible for the Holodomor you'd be all over it in an instant. but its all pish posh when commies do it... and you urge me to "publicize my history" as if it falls on me to spread mass awareness of what should technically be a high school curriculum taught right alongside the holocaust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Funny, you seem to be aware of the Famine.....and I picture you as an average canadian girl.The anniversary is coming up...lets see how many news itens we will find the 1st 2 weeks of November.... okay dancer, could you stop this willful ignorance game? do you really think that you impase on anyone when you say that the holodomor is as widely known as the holocaust? I mean the word Holodomor isn't even in the word 2007 databank... yet the holocaust is. How many TV specials you see on the subject? I looked over my cousin's secondary 4 history book.... not a word on the holodomor... but an entire 23 page segment on the holocaust... testimonials, pictures, maps, timelines etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 okay dancer, could you stop this willful ignorance game? do you really think that you impase on anyone when you say that the holodomor is as widely known as the holocaust? I didn't say it is as widely known....and certainly not by the name of holodomar which didn't even exist untill about 20 years ago. But the great ukrainian famine is certainly known where there are Ukrainian communities....perhaps if there were as many Ukrainians in North America as there are Jews, it would be better known.....same goes with if there were more Cambodians....Armenians...Rwandins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 I didn't say it is as widely known....and certainly not by the name of holodomar which didn't even exist untill about 20 years ago.But the great ukrainian famine is certainly known where there are Ukrainian communities....perhaps if there were as many Ukrainians in North America as there are Jews, it would be better known.....same goes with if there were more Cambodians....Armenians...Rwandins... Rwandans? Rwanda is much more widely known because it is recent. But still, it doesn't explain the huge gap in awareness since jews are THEMSELVES A SMALL MINORITY wherever they live... there are approximately 300 000 jews living in canada! and 1.3 MILLION UKRAINIANS... yet nearly every major canadian city has a museum or awareness day parade coupled with anti defamation leagues, and organizations etc... yet ... still somehow... for some inexplicable reason... we know a helluva lot more about the HOLOCAUST then the Holodomor. Again, you're simply ignoring the painfully obvious truth here.. that there is no specific reason for us to heat about the holocaust ABOVE the holodomor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) Funny, you seem to be aware of the Famine.....and I picture you as an average canadian girl.The anniversary is coming up...lets see how many news itens we will find the 1st 2 weeks of November.... How many movies have there been about the Holocaust? How many about the Ukrainian slaughter? Some people speak desparagingly of the Holocaust Industry, but while overall I disagree, there is some truth to it. We hear about it constantly, even to this day, yet rarely, if ever, hear about the murders of the Ukrainians. The Holocaust was an Epoch Event, endlessly dramatized on TV, and in books, magazines and movies. The Ukraine was just a soft, quiet mass death the world has taken little note of. Edited October 22, 2009 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Rwandans? Rwanda is much more widely known because it is recent. But still, it doesn't explain the huge gap in awareness since jews are THEMSELVES A SMALL MINORITY wherever they live... there are approximately 300 000 jews living in canada! and 1.3 MILLION UKRAINIANS... yet nearly every major canadian city has a museum or awareness day parade coupled with anti defamation leagues, and organizations etc... I said North America... ...there are 2.1 million Ukes in NA, the Majority in Canada... ...there are 5.27 million jews in NA, the majority is USA Again, you're simply ignoring the painfully obvious truth here.. that there is no specific reason for us to heat about the holocaust ABOVE the holodomor. The Holocaust and the Ukrainian Famine are two spearate and different events. Both are horrific but there are differences. One was the sytematic extermination of an entire people, and one wasn't. One was in the end fully exposed and brought to light and the other is still shrouded in mystery. The estimates of the dead vary widely and there isn't even conscensu on whether it was a deliberate policy or the result of the inept soviet system. Personaly I think it ranks with the Irish Famine. Amazinly we hear little about the irish famine, possibly because they are white.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 The estimates of the dead vary widely and there isn't even conscensu on whether it was a deliberate policy or the result of the inept soviet system. Personaly I think it ranks with the Irish Famine. I personally consider that type of remark to be the equivilent of Holocaust denial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Funny, you seem to be aware of the Famine.....and I picture you as an average canadian girl. What? Seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 What? Seriously? Okay, I think Kimmy is well above average... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 I said North America......there are 2.1 million Ukes in NA, the Majority in Canada... ...there are 5.27 million jews in NA, the majority is USA ?!?!? so by your amazing deductive logic (remember we were talking about canada!) we should logically hear HALF as much at LEAST about the holodomor ... bus alas reality is more along the lines of next to ZERO. here's a compact list of holocaust movies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_films there are litrerally hundreds... and these don't even count the random movies that mention the holoaust in one form or another... on the subject of the holodomor there is ONE MOVIE... http://www.holodomorthemovie.com/ one movie that probably won't reach 20 000 views. and you call that equitable? disgusting... you should be ashamed of yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 and you call that equitable? disgusting... you should be ashamed of yourself. Why should I be ashamed. Are there no ukrainian film makers? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Ukraine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 The Holocaust and the Ukrainian Famine are two spearate and different events. Both are horrific but there are differences. One was the sytematic extermination of an entire people, and one wasn't. One was in the end fully exposed and brought to light and the other is still shrouded in mystery. The estimates of the dead vary widely and there isn't even conscensu on whether it was a deliberate policy or the result of the inept soviet system. Personaly I think it ranks with the Irish Famine. Amazinly we hear little about the irish famine, possibly because they are white.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor well the holocaust wrest 100% on eye whiteness testimonies... many contradicting themsleves.. the only reason we know about treblinka for instance is from the eye witness testinomy of 3 .. that's right 3 alleged survivors. and there are many logistical problems with the official story... one Nuremberg sworn testimony (that is technically illegal to deny in certain countries) is the notion that Germans gassed jews at treblinka with used captured soviet submarine diesel engines. Which doesn't make sense for many reasons: first diesel's gas is particulate... it is largely soot, and not effective for gassing people to death quickly, additionally, submarine engines are very complex machines that requires constant water cooling... which wouldn't work for outdoor gassing... on top of that there were never any captured Russian subs ... because subs don't tend to GET captured... since they usually sink when hit... add to that the fact tht germans would not have had the necessary parts and repair instructions to fix any problem... other testimonials include electrocuted floors as the preferred method of killing inmates in Auschwitz... oh and need I remind you that the official number of dead for Auschwitz was revised in 1992 from an original 4 million dead ... to a paltry 1 million... and no effort has since been made to locate where the other 3 million died... then you have the frightfully problematic cremation process in Hilderberg and you see that the scholarship supporting the Holocaust is far less satisfying then the one supporting the holodomor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 absolutely, the holocaust IS sacred for Jews, and rightly so. What's perverse is that the media is trying to force non-jews to feel the same kind of angst and pain for the holocaust as Jews (even more so!). Six million people were murdered because of their ethno-racial identity. Also look what happened to the Gypsies. The real Holocaust figures, including all the people that the Nazis herded into their death machine, is somewhere on the order of 10 to 12 million. Its like asking a family two blocks away to feel the same degree of empathy and pain over the death of a child of another family... I'm wondering whether you feel any particular empathy at all. They use the holocaust "ad infinitam nauseam" because it suits their program of multiculturalism so well... whenever someone has a nonleftist opinion about anything they can immediately get them on the run by saying "that's what hitler did"... that's how powerful the holocaust industry is... its the central pillar of Political Correctness and brainwashed left-wing politics. No kidding. Those damned Jews. Why can't they just shut up about the Nazis trying to wipe them all out. Left wing Bolshevik bastards... Just think, in our begrimed and defiled country, it is perfectly reasonable and OK to wear a hammer and sickle t shirt, or EL Che backpack pin... or any other type of Communist regalia, but for all practical purposes, it would ILLEGAL to wear a Hakenkreuz or Swastika, or say a Goebbels t-shirt... Communism never started and ended with the Soviet Union, China or Cuba. Marxism still has a following, and it isn't all Stalinists. I certainly don't see Marxism as a viable economic theory, but it is, after all, an economic theory. The double standard is quite obvious. I know I know. Just when you want to start going Heil Hitler, and trying to get rid of all the darkies, Jews, Catholics and Communists, some lefty tries to stop you. It's tough being a racist monster in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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