DogOnPorch Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 The Hell's Angels steal a fuel tanker and drive it into the bush where it gets stuck. They phone some of their non-HA friends who come out with jerry cans to grab some free gas. What are the expectations for these gas-grabbers? What would the RCMP do? Let them go as they are 'civilian'? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest American Woman Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 According to UN estimates, more Afghan civilians die from insurgent attacks than from coalition troops. link Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 What about the hearts and minds thing though? You'll never have an end to recruits or the war without them. To win this war you either need the technical ability to place ordnance on targets to avoid civilian casualties or the pagan ethos it takes to merely shrug them off. You don't usually seem have any problem with the latter but perhaps there is a bleeding heart beating deep within you after all. Nope.....as they say...war is hell...because it's suppose to be. NATO/Canada went ape shit with target qualification and lawyerly target reviews during Operation Allied Force (Kosovo), if only to give the appearance of giving a damn about minimizing "collateral damage" and "war crimes". As expected, most targets were found to legitimate, including a Belgrade broadcast center that killed some Chinese nationals. The "funny" part is that all this was to protect "human rights" and stop "genocide". Afghanistan is getting the full treatment, not just a bombing campaign. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 Afghanistan is getting the full treatment, not just a bombing campaign. Indeed...they now know what the 'fart of death' is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Iz5MwPsfyo Yowzers...that's wha' I'm takin' about! Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest American Woman Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 What about the hearts and minds thing though? You'll never have an end to recruits or the war without them. To win this war you either need the technical ability to place ordnance on targets to avoid civilian casualties or the pagan ethos it takes to merely shrug them off. You don't usually seem have any problem with the latter but perhaps there is a bleeding heart beating deep within you after all. The strategy is to place civilians in as little danger as possible. But look at what the UN say, that more Afghan lives are lost to insurgent attacks than from coalition troops. That's why I asked what I did in regards to this situation: If Taliban troops hijack fuel trucks and then call in the civilians to syphon the gas, who is to blame? Do you think it's fair to say the coalition didn't give enough care to the civilian lives? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 The strategy is to place civilians in as little danger as possible. But look at what the UN say, that more Afghan lives are lost to insurgent attacks than from coalition troops. That's why I asked what I did in regards to this situation: If Taliban troops hijack fuel trucks and then call in the civilians to syphon the gas, who is to blame? Do you think it's fair to say the coalition didn't give enough care to the civilian lives? Like my RCMP/Hell's Angels analogy...everyone is getting arrested...or in this case BBQ-ed. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 The Hell's Angels steal a fuel tanker and drive it into the bush where it gets stuck. They phone some of their non-HA friends who come out with jerry cans to grab some free gas.What are the expectations for these gas-grabbers? What would the RCMP do? Let them go as they are 'civilian'? Did the cops arrest the beneficiaries of Al Capone's largesse? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 The strategy is to place civilians in as little danger as possible. But look at what the UN say, that more Afghan lives are lost to insurgent attacks than from coalition troops. That's why I asked what I did in regards to this situation: If Taliban troops hijack fuel trucks and then call in the civilians to syphon the gas, who is to blame? Do you think it's fair to say the coalition didn't give enough care to the civilian lives? I guess its ultimately the civilian's fault and I'm not being facetious. In the meantime I imagine the relatives of the bombing victims are lining up to wade into the quagmire themselves. You can't blame us for that, apparently. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
DogOnPorch Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 Did the cops arrest the beneficiaries of Al Capone's largesse? Using a case from the 1930s as a precident...give me a break. They didn't even have proper Federal Law. You know what the point is... If you steal...expect to be punished if caught. If you hang out with the Taliban in a war-zone...expect an A-10 Warthog. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 I guess its ultimately the civilian's fault and I'm not being facetious. In the meantime I imagine the relatives of the bombing victims are lining up to wade into the quagmire themselves.You can't blame us for that, apparently. Sure...that works...just like the dead civilians in the former World Trade Center towers. No need to be delicate here, even as methods and technology have been upgraded to reduce collateral damage. But make no mistake, bombs will fall until the evil giant runs out of bombs.....then he will just get some more. Remember that delightful Chris Rock video? If you make the police chase your ass, they are bringing an ass whipping with them. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 Sure...that works...just like the dead civilians in the former World Trade Center towers. No need to be delicate here, even as methods and technology have been upgraded to reduce collateral damage. But make no mistake, bombs will fall until the evil giant runs out of bombs.....then he will just get some more. Remember that delightful Chris Rock video? If you make the police chase your ass, they are bringing an ass whipping with them. 'He's got weed! He's got weed!' (never drive with a mad woman) Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest American Woman Posted September 9, 2009 Report Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) I guess its ultimately the civilian's fault and I'm not being facetious. In the meantime I imagine the relatives of the bombing victims are lining up to wade into the quagmire themselves.You can't blame us for that, apparently. Do you blame us? Here's what I don't understand. It's the idea that people 'seek revenge' against innocent people. That's why I'm trying to figure out who is to "blame" here. If we do everything we can to try to prevent innocent deaths, and something like this happens, is it 'understandable' if the relatives of the bombing victims "line up" -- and I'm reading "to wade into the quagmire themselves" as 'to seek revenge' -- to seek revenge against innocent people? We aren't "seeking revenge" against any innocent people. I don't think "revenge" is even the explanation for why we are there. But if "relatives line up to wade into the quagmire themselves," wouldn't that be the only thing they were doing -- seeking revenge against other innocent people? Edited September 9, 2009 by American Woman Quote
eyeball Posted September 10, 2009 Report Posted September 10, 2009 Do you blame us? We're all responsible for the choices we make and in a democracy we all have to take responsibility for the decisions that are made in our name. Here's what I don't understand. It's the idea that people 'seek revenge' against innocent people. That's why I'm trying to figure out who is to "blame" here. If we do everything we can to try to prevent innocent deaths, and something like this happens, is it 'understandable' if the relatives of the bombing victims "line up" -- and I'm reading "to wade into the quagmire themselves" as 'to seek revenge' -- to seek revenge against innocent people? Everyone is to blame to some extent. I'm pretty certain that in the minds of at least a few relatives of the people killed in this attack there is no such thing as an innocent westerner. That's their failing. To me, a clash of cultures is like a collision between two vessels at sea, it is extremely rare for a board of inquiry to not apportion blame to both vessels. The point being that everyone is repsonsible to some extent. We aren't "seeking revenge" against any innocent people. I don't think "revenge" is even the explanation for why we are there. But if "relatives line up to wade into the quagmire themselves," wouldn't that be the only thing they were doing -- seeking revenge against other innocent people? Perhaps you weren't seeking revenge for 9/11 but I'm pretty certain more than a few people were thinking about a response in precisely those terms. As someone around here said recently the US had to attack someone in response to 9/11, the assumption being that if the government and politicians didn't they would have been pilloried and nailed to a cross. Who takes responsibility for that response? As for myself, I sought an answer to the question I asked within a minute of the 2nd plane impacting the WTC, 'why would anyone want to attack a nation that was so kind and gentle?' To me who has never been as important as why. That's why I'm trying to figure out who is to "blame" here. Perhaps you are but I suspect many are still buying into the idea that America was attacked right out of the proverbial blue for no reason whatsoever. I can appreciate how difficult it would be for a US politicians or government to acknowledge America's share of the blame for the situation its in, they don't call the US the Excited States of America for nothing but that's probably the lamest excuse there is for avoiding the impulse for revenge. Thankfully its never too late to hope that its not all bad news, as this article suggests, The US government under the Bush administration increased the military assistance to Ethiopia in the form of International Military Education and Training (IMET) and Foreign Military Financing (FMF) by more than three times between 2002-2006 compared to the previous four years (1997-2001). At the same time, the military sales (foreign military sales [FMS] and direct commercial sales [DCS] combined) to Ethiopia more than doubled in the 2002-2006 period compared to 1997-2001 (data: the Center for Defense Information - find link below). All this happened despite the Ethiopian regime’s gross human rights abuses documented consistently by international human rights organizations as well as the US State Department. As the following article by Mr. Alemayehu G. Mariam reveals, the new Obama administration has plans to “quietly and matter-of-factly cut off assistance for military training and equipment” to Ethiopia due to Ethiopia’s rampant human rights abuses. It is to be noted that Ethiopian officials, implicated in masterminding the human rights abuses, came out in full force recently to belittle human rights reports from such organizations as the US State Department, the Amnesty International (AI) and the Human Rights Watch (HRW)......The foregoing change in U.S. military assistance policy in Ethiopia is an extraordinary transformation in U.S. foreign policy. For the first time in decades, the U.S. government has decided to explicitly link human rights abuses in Ethiopia to its military aid program... Story Its a step in the right direction, now the next step is to accept the idea that the linkage between America's military aid and human rights abuses in the countries it sends this aids can lead to people there seeking revenge against Americans. When they do who is to blame? I'd have to say the first step the US took in this direction was when Madeleine Albright acknowledged America's overthrow of Mossadegh. Its a real shame me that America couldn't have built on this in back in 2000 but it was probably too little too late, especially at that point. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted September 10, 2009 Report Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) AW, recall my mention of how these threads interconnect around the issues of 9/11, super-rogues, and the ongoing pattern of western interference in the ME and surrounding region? Here is another case in point. Initially at least, Afghanistan was about getting you-know-who and his chums. Revenge pure and simple. Edited September 10, 2009 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Posted September 10, 2009 AW, recall my mention of how these threads interconnect around the issues of 9/11, super-rogues, and the ongoing pattern of western interference in the ME and surrounding region?Here is another case in point. Revenge is good.....just ask Japan. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
naomiglover Posted September 10, 2009 Report Posted September 10, 2009 What a useless and tactless war that has turned out to be. How long did it take the Russians before they gave up? Quote Jewish Voice for Peace Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East
M.Dancer Posted September 10, 2009 Report Posted September 10, 2009 What a useless and tactless war that has turned out to be. How long did it take the Russians before they gave up? The russians suffered over ten times the fatalities in the 9 years they were there compared to the 9 years we (nato) have been there. If we were to use their effort as a benchmark, we're good for another 81 years. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Posted September 10, 2009 What a useless and tactless war that has turned out to be. How long did it take the Russians before they gave up? Interesting....shall we only fight the wars with a guaranteed win ? That's not very sporting. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted September 10, 2009 Report Posted September 10, 2009 Interesting....shall we only fight the wars with a guaranteed win ? That's not very sporting. But it is the prefered method ... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
wulf42 Posted September 10, 2009 Author Report Posted September 10, 2009 What a useless and tactless war that has turned out to be. How long did it take the Russians before they gave up? The Russians had one major problem....it was to much of General Smirnoff...... Quote
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