Muslim Teen Fears for Life After Changing Religion

[Oleg Bach]

lictor,

What exactly does this thread accomplish? You want to convince other people to despise Islam and Muslims like you do?

You solve nothing with these threads and only encourage hatred and ignorance. People who think like you are what's wrong with this world.

I agree - You have to remember that this site comes out of Lethbridge Alberta - It is a red neck publication...full of educated and wanna be rich haters - what else is new? I just play along with them - It's fun.... IF you want peace in the world you have to make friends - one on one - one at a time - BUT these haters love war - it makes them rich. That's the bottom line - YOU must have a hate object ----It use to be the Jews not the Muslim is the new Jew...go figure.

[lictor616]

lictor,

What exactly does this thread accomplish? You want to convince other people to despise Islam and Muslims like you do?

You solve nothing with these threads and only encourage hatred and ignorance. People who think like you are what's wrong with this world.

citing real life news events... is tantamount to "ignorance"

any politically incorrect opinion is somehow "ignorant"

for instance to claim that all men (by the very laws of biological evolution) are UNEQUAL... is ignorant...

To remind people that blacks rape white women at scandalously higher rates then white men rape black women (showing the evidence for it)... is "ignorance".

To say that majority black cities are disagreeable to live in... is ignorance...

If language has not become mere babbling to excite the glands of liberals... ignorance can only mean ONE THING: "

: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness"

How is looking at the world around us, and trying to reason from it "ignorance", why is it "ignorance" to talk about race?

you know I'm starting to get really tired of people using that leery word " ignorance" in association with any statement that isn't hardcore leftist, or which may may be unflattering to certain aggrieved segments of our sacrosanct "minorities"

You know what graham, its people like you ruin the world... you are a "mass man".... a lemming, who parrots the TV party line and browbeats anyone who doesn't subscribe to your point of view... its you who has blinders on your eyes to avoid looking too far into what it is not politically correct for you to look at... it is you who is ignorant and shuts down debate and rational arguments (just as this post does) because (like a REAL bigot and ignoramus) you simply assume that you are right without bothering to argue or challenge your beliefs...

your comment exemplifies the kind of mob mentality that use to lead to witch hunts in the middle ages... you're against what I say not because its objectively wrong... but because its RELIGIOUSLY wrong... it contradicts your religion of political correctness.

I'm not saying that you're an ignoramus in the sense that you're mentally retarded, not at all, in fact you probably learned to use much of the machinery of civilization, but you are characterized by root-ignorance of the very principles of that civilization.

Edited September 8, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

lictor,

What exactly does this thread accomplish? You want to convince other people to despise Islam and Muslims like you do?

You solve nothing with these threads and only encourage hatred and ignorance. People who think like you are what's wrong with this world.

how fitting it is that the guy calling others "ignorant" here has as his signature:

"The enemy advances, we retreat; the enemy camps, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack; the enemy retreats, we pursue." - Mao Tse-Tung on how to defeat the more powerful enemy through guerrilla warfare.

"Did you know that today 27,000 children will die of preventable diseases such as diarrhea, measles, and malnutrition? That's the same as if an airplane full of children crashed every 16 minutes, killing everyone onboard." - Aug. 2005 edition of 'Warcry', official magazine of the Salvation Army

??? Did you know how many millions of children died of preventable hunger under mao during his artificial famines? about 1000 times the 27 000 you quote and bemoan...

[JB Globe]

Hey - wait...I remember an incident...I was stuck with my family in that nasty place called Scarborough - for a couple of years..not that I would move to such a place through my own free will. It was due to a bad set of circumstances. Anyway my pale skinned blonde son enrolled in one of the local schools where he was a minority. The Muslims students were allowed a "prayer room" AND they got use of one of the washrooms to do their ritutal washing. My son wandered in and one dark eyed little bastard looked at my son ....and said - "My feet are cleaner than your head" - The little Muslim elitist jerk held my son in contempt and loathing...because he was very white......The Muslim gave it no thought that my family were ancient orthodox Christians - who had everything contained in our blood line including being Muslims at one time - Not to mention every other damned religion on earth.....The MUSLIM assumed my son and my family were dirty infidels ----I would say that we are more holy than them - but do I persecute them? NO!

While it sucks to be the odd guy out in a school, these kinds of stories are true on the other side - ie: being on of the only Muslim/black/Hindu/etc in a school will get you these kinds of results as well.

The difference is of course, once school is done, that your son is not going to continue to experience bigotry on a regular basis from Muslims. Whereas a Muslim kid who goes to a school with no other Muslims will still have to endure bigotry once he leaves - because there's simply a lot more hatred towards Muslims in the larger society.

[Bonam]

The difference is of course, once school is done, that your son is not going to continue to experience bigotry on a regular basis from Muslims. Whereas a Muslim kid who goes to a school with no other Muslims will still have to endure bigotry once he leaves - because there's simply a lot more hatred towards Muslims in the larger society.

That is only because Muslims are for now the minority and non-Muslims the majority. But that is the very issue at stake in all the threads on this topic. We are importing Muslims at a far higher rate than our population is otherwise growing, and furthermore demographics show that they tend to have more children than many other groups in society. They will constitute an ever larger minority, and if our policies remain the same for long enough, eventually a majority. Then his son will indeed experience this bigotry on a regular basis, and if the violent tendencies associated with extremist Islam remain in place, he will experience far worse than mere bigotry. Is that really the future we want for our country?

Edited September 8, 2009 by Bonam

[Oleg Bach]

Islam will be the majority eventually - they maintain the traditional family unit - the father is the head of the house and they breed..You can social engineer all you want and drag off all their males to take anger management courses.. hoping they will submit our phagotry..but they will prevail - a system that has endured for a thousand years will over come some half baked western experiment based on subjugation and duping.

[JB Globe]

That is only because Muslims are for now the minority and non-Muslims the majority. But that is the very issue at stake in all the threads on this topic. We are importing Muslims at a far higher rate than our population is otherwise growing, and furthermore demographics show that they tend to have more children than many other groups in society. They will constitute an ever larger minority, and if our policies remain the same for long enough, eventually a majority. Then his son will indeed experience this bigotry on a regular basis, and if the violent tendencies associated with extremist Islam remain in place, he will experience far worse than mere bigotry. Is that really the future we want for our country?

1 - What data do you have that shows that Muslims will eventually become a majority in Canada? Even in Europe in 2100 the data shows at most 25% - and that's only if present immigration trends continue (which is pretty much unheard of over a 90 year period).

2 - Birth rates tend to decline with subsequent generations that live in Canada - any idea how big the average size Italian-Canadian family was in the 30's - 50's?

3 - What besides anecdotal evidence do you have that Muslim-Canadians are somehow more intolerant than other groups of people? Because if all you have is anecdotal evidence, I have my own to counter yours: I'm Jewish, I count Muslims among my best life-long friends and future in-laws, I've been to mosques before, many of my co-workers have been/are Muslim, and to date the only antisemitism I've experienced directly in real life has been from Anglo-Canadians.

I know antisemitism exists in the Muslim community, but from my anecdotal experience it does not seem that Muslims are drastically more intolerant than other groups of people. Until I see some hard data - I'm not buying it.

[Bonam]

1 - What data do you have that shows that Muslims will eventually become a majority in Canada? Even in Europe in 2100 the data shows at most 25% - and that's only if present immigration trends continue (which is pretty much unheard of over a 90 year period).

Simple extrapolation of current trends. You are right, present immigration trends may not continue. They may decline, or, they may grow even higher. But the reality is that Islam is the fastest growing religion, and many of those nations where population growth is highest have a large number of Muslims. India, south-east Asia, central Asia, some parts of Africa, etc, are all rapidly growing in population and have substantial numbers of Muslims. Our population, on the other hand, is not increasing, rather, birth-rates are at or below replacement in most countries that share our culture. Sooner or later, unless something drastic changes, we will become a minority. For how long can an ever-decreasing segment of the world's population hold claim to and maintain majority in such a large portion of the world's land area?

2 - Birth rates tend to decline with subsequent generations that live in Canada - any idea how big the average size Italian-Canadian family was in the 30's - 50's?

Perhaps, it depends on to what extent they integrate into our mainstream culture which promotes relatively low birth rates. Immigration today often results in "ethnic enclaves" and the policies of multiculturalism encourage immigrants to retain their original cultures. The birth rates of recent immigrants may not decline as much or as quickly as those of generations past. But even if their birth rates normalize to be comparable to that of average Canadians, immigration will continue to shift the demographic.

3 - What besides anecdotal evidence do you have that Muslim-Canadians are somehow more intolerant than other groups of people?

There is nothing special about "Muslim-Canadians" as compared to Muslims anywhere else around the world. Coming to Canada does not magically transform them. Incidents of violence and repression related to intolerance of views outside of those prescribed by religion and local cultures is substantially higher in many Muslim countries than it is in Canada. Do you disagree? This is where these people are coming from, and they are bringing their views with them.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Bonam

[JB Globe]

There is nothing special about "Muslim-Canadians" as compared to Muslims anywhere else around the world. Coming to Canada does not magically transform them.

You can say this about any immigrant group. Usually intolerance in an immigrant group is a result of that group coming from a monocultural country, or one that is just not as close to the makeup of say, Toronto. They have to learn how to live with difference, and the vast majority of them have the growing pains and fit in, or at least their kids do. And I'd say that it's no more likely a scenario than some kid who grew up in a small rural town and moved to the big city and had to live with difference. A few will never be able to, but most eventually break down their prejudices and learn a thing or two.

Incidents of violence and repression related to intolerance of views outside of those prescribed by religion and local cultures is substantially higher in many Muslim countries than it is in Canada. Do you disagree?

I agree, but unlike yourself, I'm able to put that fact in its proper context: namely, that incidents of violence and repression related to intolerance of views outside of those prescribed by religion and local cultures is substantially higher in most countries IN GENERAL than they are Canada. And especially developing countries.

The incidents you are describing aren't correlated to countries based on if they're Muslim-majority or not, but rather if they're a developing nation or not - essentially if they're rich or poor. The obvious reason being is you're more likely to get into a fight with your neighbour over something if there's not much money or resources to go around.

The fact that Burma is Buddhist doesn't stop the Junta from persecuting the Mon, the fact that Rwanda was 90% Christian didn't stop them from slaughtering each other. And the fact that South America is overwhelmingly Catholic doesn't seem to have an affect on how indigenous people are treated there today.

All societies are just as capable of persecuting people based on difference.

[Bonam]

I agree, but unlike yourself, I'm able to put that fact in its proper context: namely, that incidents of violence and repression related to intolerance of views outside of those prescribed by religion and local cultures is substantially higher in most countries IN GENERAL than they are Canada. And especially developing countries.

The incidents you are describing aren't correlated to countries based on if they're Muslim-majority or not, but rather if they're a developing nation or not - essentially if they're rich or poor. The obvious reason being is you're more likely to get into a fight with your neighbour over something if there's not much money or resources to go around.

I most certainly agree with you, we should be careful with immigration from all poor and violent countries, not just Muslim ones.

[wulf42]

1 - What data do you have that shows that Muslims will eventually become a majority in Canada? Even in Europe in 2100 the data shows at most 25% - and that's only if present immigration trends continue (which is pretty much unheard of over a 90 year period).

2 - Birth rates tend to decline with subsequent generations that live in Canada - any idea how big the average size Italian-Canadian family was in the 30's - 50's?

3 - What besides anecdotal evidence do you have that Muslim-Canadians are somehow more intolerant than other groups of people? Because if all you have is anecdotal evidence, I have my own to counter yours: I'm Jewish, I count Muslims among my best life-long friends and future in-laws, I've been to mosques before, many of my co-workers have been/are Muslim, and to date the only antisemitism I've experienced directly in real life has been from Anglo-Canadians.

I know antisemitism exists in the Muslim community, but from my anecdotal experience it does not seem that Muslims are drastically more intolerant than other groups of people. Until I see some hard data - I'm not buying it.

Immigration the way it is now needs to be halted now!! This country is in dire danger and only now

are Canadians waking up to it!

Edited September 8, 2009 by wulf42

[JB Globe]

Immigration the way it is now needs to be halted now!! This country is in dire danger and only now

are Canadians waking up to it!

Was this meant to convince me of anything? Or are you operating in your own echo-chamber?

[naomiglover]

There seems to be a lot of stereotyping here.

It's sad and also alarming to see such bigotry on here.

The owner of the penthouse in our building (in Canada) is one of the nicest people I've encountered. He is, I'm sure, quite wealthy but his approach is modest and respectful. He's a Muslim Arab and has been living in Canada with his family for 4 years after immigrating from Abu Dhabi (spelling?). Last week, when I was in Canada, I had a talk with him and he told me about Ramadan and his diet. I can't say enough about how gentle and respectful this man is.

My husband who works at a hospital has 2 Saudi Arabian co-workers who I've met and they are also very delightful and respectful people.

[DogOnPorch]

Only 1,499,999,997 anecdotes to go!

[lictor616]

There seems to be a lot of stereotyping here.

It's sad and also alarming to see such bigotry on here.

The owner of the penthouse in our building (in Canada) is one of the nicest people I've encountered. He is, I'm sure, quite wealthy but his approach is modest and respectful. He's a Muslim Arab and has been living in Canada with his family for 4 years after immigrating from Abu Dhabi (spelling?). Last week, when I was in Canada, I had a talk with him and he told me about Ramadan and his diet. I can't say enough about how gentle and respectful this man is.

My husband who works at a hospital has 2 Saudi Arabian co-workers who I've met and they are also very delightful and respectful people.

oh really you know someone who works with 2 (wow TWO) saudi co workers...

wow, I see the error in my ways... with such incontrovertible and gripping proof... I admit that I was wrong...

who would of thunk it... you could have put away all of our doubts with unverifiable, unprovable pieces of anecdotal trifle... and called anybody with different impressions ... "bigots"

[M.Dancer]

you could have put away all of our doubts with unverifiable, unprovable pieces of anecdotal trifle... "

I know...there was one here who tried to pass on some nonsense about the south shore cops having racial quotas when it comes to arrests.

I take you agree that poisting such unverifiable unproven trifle a waste of time

[naomiglover]

It's interesting that the allegations against the parents have turned into facts. I guess this is how hate mongers feed themselves.

Carry on boys.

[Guest TrueMetis]

It's interesting that the allegations against the parents have turned into facts. I guess this is how hate mongers feed themselves.

Carry on boys.

It is Interesting, I've already pointed out that nothing in the article is fact, That if some of the things that are said are true than these people don't come close to fanatics and that christians are just as capable of brainwashing people as anyone else. Although that's seems to have been completly ignored becuase it would ruin the bigots fun at pointing out the how bad muslims are.

ETA hey this is interesting too http://www.newsweek.com/id/215100

three separate investigations—two by authorities in Ohio and one by law enforcement in Florida—have found no reason to believe that her allegations are true or her life is imperiled.

At New Albany High School, Rifqa excelled. She maintained a 3.5 grade-point average and became a member of the cheerleading squad. Mohamed "is so proud of his children," says Gary Abbott, his closest friend in the U.S. (and a Christian). "He values them more than his own life."

Soon after arriving in Ohio, Rifqa began exploring Christianity. (Though the Barys raised their kids Muslim, Mohamed says the family didn't attend mosque regularly, due to his travel schedule as a gem dealer.)

Mohamed, a polite, mild-mannered man who seems deeply pained by the acrimony, responds that all this is nonsense. He and his wife learned that Rifqa considered herself a Christian when she was 14, he says, and though they would have preferred she remain Muslim, "we did not make a big fuss about it." Plus, he points out, if they were indeed such fanatics, why would they have let their daughter prance around as a cheerleader?

Mohamed says Rifqa's behavior began to change more markedly at the beginning of this summer. She became withdrawn, barely speaking to him when they drove places together. She rejected the company of her little brother, with whom she'd always been affectionate. She would stay up late, reading her Bible on the balcony. Aysha also found books in the girl's room that she found troubling, like Is the Injeel Corrupted? (Its author, Fouad Masri, believes that "radical Islam is a reflection of a spiritual thirst that can only be quenched through the teachings and the life of Christ," according to one of his press releases.) Moreover, Rifqa was constantly on Facebook, interacting with people her parents had no clue about. "We were worried," says Mohamed.

Bary's parents, who knew none of this, became frantic when they discovered their daughter was gone. They filed a missing-persons report with Columbus police and reached out to everyone they could think of. Police say the Barys cooperated fully with their investigation and seemed like loving parents who were worried sick. Searching among Rifqa's personal items, the Barys found a flash drive filled with spiritual writings by Williams. He'd already spoken to the family and told them he didn't know where Rifqa was. But on Aug. 5—more than two weeks after the girl went missing—Columbus police interviewed him by phone (he was now living in Kansas City, Mo.). He says they threatened to arrest him if Bary didn't appear in the next 24 hours. Immediately after that call, he says, Kansas City police went to his home looking for the girl. Alarmed, Williams says he called and e-mailed all the people he knew Bary had been in touch with, including Blake Lorenz, who's a Facebook friend of his.

On Aug. 7, Orlando police picked up Bary, and soon she was in DCF custody. In a procedural error, however, the agency allowed the girl to return to the Lorenz home for three days before moving her to a licensed foster family. During that time, the couple allowed a local TV news crew to tape an interview with Bary that soon appeared on YouTube. Distraught and at times hysterical, the girl alleged that her parents had threatened to commit an honor killing against her. "If they love God more than me, they have to do this," she said. "I'm fighting for my life." (Muslim scholars say that in Islam, there's no such thing as an honor killing for apostasy.)

Once Bary's case became public, numerous Christian conservatives fanned the flames. "This conflict between Islam and Christianity is going to grow greater," said Blake Lorenz, according to the St. Petersburg Times. "This conflict between good and evil is going to grow greater." Stemberger, Bary's lawyer, filed a 33-page memorandum in her case that's filled with innuendo and provocative allegations against the Noor Center, the mosque that the Barys occasionally attend (on a conference call with reporters, Stemberger insisted that the accusations have been "documented extensively"). Among them: that the center is connected to an FBI terror probe (which the FBI denies) and that its CEO has connections to the Muslim Brotherhood (which, along with every other allegation, the Noor Center denies). The mosque is actually regarded as mainstream and regularly hosts interfaith events. "Unfortunately, hate groups appear to be using this family matter as an opportunity to attack the Muslim community and Islamic organizations in order to further their religious and political goals," the center said in a statement.

"It's very hard for us to believe that it has gone so far," says Mohamed. "We love her; we want her to come back. She can be a Christian, that's not a problem."

Ya they seem like the hardcore fanatic type. I wonder, if this proves to be the Christian fanatics fearmongering, if Lictor or anyone will condemn them?

Edited September 10, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Moonlight Graham]

any politically incorrect opinion is somehow "ignorant"

your comment exemplifies the kind of mob mentality that use to lead to witch hunts in the middle ages... you're against what I say not because its objectively wrong... but because its RELIGIOUSLY wrong... it contradicts your religion of political correctness.

You are not politically incorrect, you are factually incorrect (and, in my opinion, also morally incorrect). Your logic is nuts. You find evidence to justify your views, but the logic in your arguments don't add up. You ignore the considerable evidence that conflicts your views. This makes you ignorant.

ie: Black neighborhoods in the U.S. aren't filled with crime because black people are violent, they are filled with crime because black people are poor. Poverty is the #1 indicator of crime. Poor white neighborhoods also have high crime. Why are blacks poor? Not because they have inferior intellect, but because they are stuck in a cycle that has pushed black people down (whether diectly or indirectly) for centuries (which is improving but will still take a long time to disappear fully). The average black person in the U.S. makes considerably more per capita than they did 100 years ago. Have their brains evolved to be smarter? No. They have better education, more job oportunities etc.

Anyways, you'd do well to go out and actually become good friends with some black people, arabs, and whatever other races who find to be inferior to whites. Might give you a new perspective.

Also, please don't have any children & teach them your wisdom. But if you do i hope somebody calls the Children's Aid Society on you for intellectual abuse.

[Moonlight Graham]

??? Did you know how many millions of children died of preventable hunger under mao during his artificial famines? about 1000 times the 27 000 you quote and bemoan...

Mao is referenced in my signature because i think it's an interesting quote, not because i think he's a great person.

[lictor616]

Mao is referenced in my signature because i think it's an interesting quote, not because i think he's a great person.

what's the bleeding heart hand wringing about "famine" then?

At first you sound off like a militarist praising warfare, then you go soft and bemoan famine (often caused by wars)... seems quite ridiculous.

on top of it you reference the quote from MAO of all people... who was neither an intelligent military strategist, and actually used famines to control his people... i couldn't help myself, I had to comment.

Edited September 17, 2009 by lictor616