Melanie_ Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 why not check it and get preferrential treatment.. he should reconsider. Because his skin colour doesn't define who he is, and he doesn't see himself as a minority. That's the point - good integration results in discarding all the differential treatment, and treating each person according to his/her own merits rather than according to their ethnic background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 You're right, I worded that badly. My husband is an immigrant from India, and our children are varying shades of brown. OK.....but the point of this silly game is that he/they could still be considered "Caucasian" and/or "white". That' why I laugh at the entire scheme of race (a social construct). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 If it were prejudice, perhaps. But it is informed discrimination. World of difference.Because I would be doing a disservice to those who do not already know you by not advising them of your distasteful intransigence on certain issues? I am only having this conversation because it is a meta-debate. Otherwise, I would be ignoring you. well I haven't been dignified with an answer to many of honest questions here... many people prefer to simply flip me off and call me name A B or C instead of answering me directly and without circumlocution (as you just did... and did a coupla times before)... perhaps this is why I insist in delving further. I mean its very maddening for me to say something like: "Look, the government enforces racial quotas with its program of affirmative action and preferential treatment of minorities... here's the evidence "exhibit A: the charter of rights and freedoms describing the right to institutional racism, and exhibit B: accounts of workplaces admitting they hire ONLY minorities" and to have a response that looks like: "sniff sniff... lictor is a diseased bigot and probably a serial pedophile... he should die... everyone ignore him now please".. you know what? I find that to be distasteful intransigence... people resorting to ad hominems instead of simply answering dispationntely... Although I don't expect monkeyman, or you or MDancer to react any differently... After all when you rudely jab a pen in the ripe boil on the enfevered body politics of Canada that is called "multiculturalism", you expect to get splashed with some puss! tata! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) Because his skin colour doesn't define who he is, and he doesn't see himself as a minority. That's the point - good integration results in discarding all the differential treatment, and treating each person according to his/her own merits rather than according to their ethnic background. his skin color doesn't but his ethnic cline or race does... many attributes he has are genetically determined by heredity... you realize this right? did you not notice his appearance? So why say that what your husband looks like counts for nothing? Are you saying that your husband's cultural background or ethnicity didn't make him more or perhaps less attractive to you? That's weird... india has such an interesting cultural baggage... how unfortunate that you didn't "take notice"... And either way I really do have a problem with unverifiable, anecdotal, hearsay nonsense such as this. How much of what you say can be verified? Also, earlier i listed example after example on many minorities were positively treatment preferentially BECAUSE of their race. a anyhoozle! Edited August 26, 2009 by lictor616 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 I mean its very maddening for me to say something like: "Look, the government enforces racial quotas with its program of affirmative action and preferential treatment of minorities... here's the evidence "exhibit A: the charter of rights and freedoms describing the right to institutional racism, and exhibit B: accounts of workplaces admitting they hire ONLY minorities" That would be one way to describe how you argue; a way that tries to sanitize what we despise and pretend that we are at fault for demonizing a demonizer. What you describe might be more like a generous way to portray Argus, but is way out of line with how you actually act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Although I don't expect monkeyman, or you or MDancer to react any differently... Eh? I care not a whit if a person is black, white or what ever. Skin colour has no meaning to me. I only judge a person by their table maners.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 well I haven't been dignified with an answer to many of honest questions here... many people prefer to simply flip me off and call me name A B or C instead of answering me directly and without circumlocution (as you just did... and did a coupla times before)... perhaps this is why I insist in delving further. I mean its very maddening for me to say something like: "Look, the government enforces racial quotas with its program of affirmative action and preferential treatment of minorities... here's the evidence "exhibit A: the charter of rights and freedoms describing the right to institutional racism, and exhibit B: accounts of workplaces admitting they hire ONLY minorities" and to have a response that looks like: "sniff sniff... lictor is a diseased bigot and probably a serial pedophile... he should die... everyone ignore him now please".. you know what? I find that to be distasteful intransigence... people resorting to ad hominems instead of simply answering dispationntely... Although I don't expect monkeyman, or you or MDancer to react any differently... After all when you rudely jab a pen in the ripe boil on the enfevered body politics of Canada that is called "multiculturalism", you expect to get splashed with some puss! tata! Multiculteralism is the melting of many cultures into "puss" - we in this nation are all different - and we are not a multicultural soup - we are made up of many distinct cultures - and they must be maintained - not mixed into a mess causing strife and in the end the loss of all culture....Why should I take the heritage and history away from another person? Why should I have my heritage taken away - my past is what I am - it's my power - Mutual co-existance is the key - not f**king corporate absorption under the term multi-culture - there is no such word! Culture is singular as is the individual - Orewellianism creeps up with the best intentions and ruins all cultures. Leaving us with none - Friendship is the key not submission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Because his skin colour doesn't define who he is, and he doesn't see himself as a minority. That's the point - good integration results in discarding all the differential treatment, and treating each person according to his/her own merits rather than according to their ethnic background. I had a similar experience while helping a friend fill out scholarship applications. I was momentarily discombobulated when she checked off a "visible minority" box. Although she is, indeed, visibly of Chinese descent, she is such a thoroughly Canadian creature that I simply never thought of her as a visible minority; seeing her put that crass little checkmark in that crass little box just felt ... odd. I find myself in agreement with Dick on this issue... "visible minority" as a euphemism for "not white" is not very progressive for a country that imagines itself to be so progressive. I see my friend's parents as exactly the kind of immigrants I hope Canada continues to bring. They have learned English to the best of their abilities, have successful careers, are enthusiastic friends to everyone they know regardless of ethnicity, and have raised a wonderful Canadian child who will be a great asset to this country. I believe that 100 years ago, my ancestors were the same sort of immigrants. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 his skin color doesn't but his ethnic cline or race does... many attributes he has are genetically determined by heredity... you realize this right? Nonsense. I've known many balck men who couldn't dance....and even a few chinese amd telagus who were bad at math.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyman Posted August 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 well I haven't been dignified with an answer to many of honest questions here... many people prefer to simply flip me off and call me name A B or C instead of answering me directly and without circumlocution (as you just did... and did a coupla times before)... perhaps this is why I insist in delving further. I mean its very maddening for me to say something like: "Look, the government enforces racial quotas with its program of affirmative action and preferential treatment of minorities... here's the evidence "exhibit A: the charter of rights and freedoms describing the right to institutional racism, and exhibit B: accounts of workplaces admitting they hire ONLY minorities" and to have a response that looks like: "sniff sniff... lictor is a diseased bigot and probably a serial pedophile... he should die... everyone ignore him now please".. you know what? I find that to be distasteful intransigence... people resorting to ad hominems instead of simply answering dispationntely... Although I don't expect monkeyman, or you or MDancer to react any differently... After all when you rudely jab a pen in the ripe boil on the enfevered body politics of Canada that is called "multiculturalism", you expect to get splashed with some puss! tata! ok answer DIRECTLY TO THIs: YOU KNOW THAT THESE QUOTAS ARE THERE BECAUSE IF THEY WERE NOT, LESS ETHNIC MINORITIES WOULD BE ABLE TO GET GOOD JOBS. YOU ARE FOR HIRING SOMEONE BECAUSE OF HIS QUALITIES, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS RACE OR RELIGION. HOWEVER, SOME PEOPLE JUST WON'T HIRE A BLACK PERSON OR AN ARABIC ONE OR A MUSLIM ONE OR A CHINESE ONE. THEREFORE, THEY STARTED TO PUT SOME QUOTAS IN SOME PLACES..... THE QUOTA THING IS ONLY THERE TO PREVENT SOME ETHNIC MINORITIES TO HAVE LESS DISCRIMINATION TOWARD THEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 ...I find myself in agreement with Dick on this issue... "visible minority" as a euphemism for "not white" is not very progressive for a country that imagines itself to be so progressive. Agreed....."visible minority" is profoundly backwards instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanie_ Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 his skin color doesn't but his ethnic cline or race does... many attributes he has are genetically determined by heredity... you realize this right? did you not notice his appearance? So why say that what your husband looks like counts for nothing? Are you saying that your husband's cultural background or ethnicity didn't make him more or perhaps less attractive to you? That's weird... india has such an interesting cultural baggage... how unfortunate that you didn't "take notice"... And either way I really do have a problem with unverifiable, anecdotal, hearsay nonsense such as this. How much of what you say can be verified? Also, earlier i listed example after example on many minorities were positively treatment preferentially BECAUSE of their race. a anyhoozle! OK, what I have posted is unverifiable, and goes against your pet peeve of ethnic minorities taking advantage of the system. So lets talk in general terms instead. What specific attributes do you believe to be determined by genetics, other than physical characteristics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Nonsense. I've known many balck men who couldn't dance....and even a few chinese amd telagus who were bad at math.... anecdotal ... unverifiable... and exceptions aren't the rule either way... i,ve once met a black jew converted to islam... ... were do we go with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 I find myself in agreement with Dick on this issue... "visible minority" as a euphemism for "not white" is not very progressive for a country that imagines itself to be so progressive. I will admit that I have used that term often enough, but for my part I wish we could get rid of describing people as colours altogether. I mean, it is no longer acceptable to refer to someone as "red" or "yellow" except in some cases of satire and comedy, but we still refer to people of European descent as "white" and people of African descent as "black". I also view the category of "brown" as pretty questionable, seeing as it looks to simply refer to someone as "not white" and "not black". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 anecdotal ... unverifiable... and exceptions aren't the rule either way... i,ve once met a black jew converted to islam... ... were do we go with this? All your claims are unverifiable....get used to it. Oh, I met a whiteman with a small penis....of course he was a neo nazi which while it doesn't explain the small penis, it does explain his feeling of racial inequality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 ok answer DIRECTLY TO THIs: YOU KNOW THAT THESE QUOTAS ARE THERE BECAUSE IF THEY WERE NOT, LESS ETHNIC MINORITIES WOULD BE ABLE TO GET GOOD JOBS. YOU ARE FOR HIRING SOMEONE BECAUSE OF HIS QUALITIES, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS RACE OR RELIGION. HOWEVER, SOME PEOPLE JUST WON'T HIRE A BLACK PERSON OR AN ARABIC ONE OR A MUSLIM ONE OR A CHINESE ONE. THEREFORE, THEY STARTED TO PUT SOME QUOTAS IN SOME PLACES.....THE QUOTA THING IS ONLY THERE TO PREVENT SOME ETHNIC MINORITIES TO HAVE LESS DISCRIMINATION TOWARD THEM. Now that's really interesting.... Let's recap shall we: Black (race) Arabic (race) Muslim (???? Is Muslim a race now?) Chinese (race) Kinda weird how you threw that one in. I'm also pretty sure that there are a number of (racial) businesses that only hire people of a race acceptable to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 OK, what I have posted is unverifiable, and goes against your pet peeve of ethnic minorities taking advantage of the system. So lets talk in general terms instead. What specific attributes do you believe to be determined by genetics, other than physical characteristics? There are many (impossible to list here for lack of concision), but race has an huge impact on medical treatment... every doctor racially profiles... some types of heart medication for instance are actually racially sensitive: BiDil is such a drug which works almost exclusively on african americans. http://www.bidil.com/ We also know that the gene microcephalin (MCPH1) which is responsible for brain development differs again along racial lines. http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazi...4/ff_brainatlas, craniometry (although rarely talked about) does display variations on skull shapes and the like... and we're all aware (although many of us refuse to admit it) that certainly types and degrees of intelligence do seem to follow geographical racial lines. Asian children develop their cognitive and motor development at different rates... blacks learn to be mobile at younger ages and we know that they have cranial sutures which close "earlier"... all of this is undisputed and widely known. Asians are vulnerable to different types of cerebral ailments as well.. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...ba82f47be35498c i mean EVERYTHING is genetic... Its obviously true that "nurture is very important" but really without "genes" nurture is useless. A person with downs is a genetic congenital affliction its determined by GENES not nurture... In "Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies", Hua Tang and a large number of other scientists recruited 3,636 subjects from 12 different locations in the U.S. and 3 in Taiwan who all identified themselves as black, white, Hispanic, or Asian. Tang et al. analyzed these subjects at 326 genetic markers. you should read this journal to shed some light on your son's self identity quandary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 That would be one way to describe how you argue; a way that tries to sanitize what we despise and pretend that we are at fault for demonizing a demonizer. What you describe might be more like a generous way to portray Argus, but is way out of line with how you actually act. (As much as this is gonna hurt) I'm going to have to side with lictor on this one. For that group of people on this board that espouse Charter arguments and freedom of speech and equality for all, it seems rather hypocritical for that same group to badmouth and issue warnings to ignore him simply because they disagree with his point of view. (This still hurts) While you may disapprove of his arguments and the content thereof, he posts in a very respectable manner. I have yet to see him resort to vulgarity or personal attacks even though his "opponents" have. I disapprove of a lot of his thoughts, but he is a far more astute poster than you, or me for that matter. Play the ball Remiel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanie_ Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 There are many (impossible to list here for lack of concision), but race has an huge impact on medical treatment... every doctor racially profiles... some types of heart medication for instance are actually racially sensitive: BiDil is such a drug which works almost exclusively on african americans. http://www.bidil.com/ ~~~~~ you should read this journal to shed some light on your son's self identity quandary. I thought we weren't talking about my hypothetical son anymore, because he is unverifiable and anecdotal. But anyway, this stuff you've posted is meaningless in terms of the basic discussion of the thread - what constitutes good integration? I asked you what specific attributes you believe to be connected to ethnic background other than physical characteristics, as physical characteristics really don't have a role to play in cultural integration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 So lictor, have you come up with your definition of "good integration" yet? (I gotta hear this!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 ok answer DIRECTLY TO THIs: YOU KNOW THAT THESE QUOTAS ARE THERE BECAUSE IF THEY WERE NOT, LESS ETHNIC MINORITIES WOULD BE ABLE TO GET GOOD JOBS. YOU ARE FOR HIRING SOMEONE BECAUSE OF HIS QUALITIES, NOT BECAUSE OF HIS RACE OR RELIGION. HOWEVER, SOME PEOPLE JUST WON'T HIRE A BLACK PERSON OR AN ARABIC ONE OR A MUSLIM ONE OR A CHINESE ONE. THEREFORE, THEY STARTED TO PUT SOME QUOTAS IN SOME PLACES.....THE QUOTA THING IS ONLY THERE TO PREVENT SOME ETHNIC MINORITIES TO HAVE LESS DISCRIMINATION TOWARD THEM. loool, I see because people *MIGHT* be "raycuss" we have to BE racists to beat em to the chase... that has to be some of the most crackpot alice in wonderland thinking i've ever seen... nevermind that its obviously not at all true that every human resource person is a ku kluxer... So the cure to "racism" is "institutionalized racism". So the problem is also a solution? Hmmmm.. That's like fighting and AIDS epidemic by injecting healthy people with AIDS... That's like trying to make people be polite by slapping them in the face impolitely if they forget to hold a door for you... It's like trying to drain a bathtub by leaving the tap full on... Racism cannot be the answer to racism... sorry... you lose... eat what we eat . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 I have yet to see him resort to vulgarity or personal attacks even though his "opponents" have. Play the ball Remiel. Perhaps then either you have not noticed some of the same comments I have, or you have different criteria for vulgar. Also, if you looked closer at this very thread you would notice he is not above personal attacks. It is precisely because of this vulgarity that I lost interest in "playing the ball". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 That's like fighting and AIDS epidemic by injecting healthy people with AIDS... Do you have any idea how vaccines actually work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 I thought we weren't talking about my hypothetical son anymore, because he is unverifiable and anecdotal. But anyway, this stuff you've posted is meaningless in terms of the basic discussion of the thread - what constitutes good integration? I asked you what specific attributes you believe to be connected to ethnic background other than physical characteristics, as physical characteristics really don't have a role to play in cultural integration. but Melanie!!! cookie!! you asked: "So lets talk in general terms instead. What specific attributes do you believe to be determined by genetics, other than physical characteristics?" And i named a couple of suggestive examples that dealt with mental faculties and brain development which differ along "racial" lines... Genetics are in deed tied in to culture whether you like it or not... Ethnicity does have a racial component to it.. You don't expect proper Dinka tribesmen to be blonde or fair skinned right? And many Persians see fair skin as MORE Persian... Chinese people look down upon dark hued people (tanned people are associated with peasants) so physical characteristics positively DO play a role in integrating a culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lictor616 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Do you have any idea how vaccines actually work? oh for the love of god! I know exactly how immunization works.... Go ahead and inject yourself with some aids contaminated blood if you want to pursue your inane argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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