August1991 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 I started this thread elsewhere against subsidizing "hybrid" cars. Cash for clunkers? I have a good two year old car. Why should pay for my neighbour to change his 10 year old car? This is economic policy by press release, and irritates me to no end. First, if the government is serious about greenhouse gas emissions, then it should tax carbon emissions, and lower other taxes such as income taxes to be revenue neutral. With these rebates for hybrids, people who walk, take the metro, ride a bicycle are in effect subsidizing buyers of new SUV hybrids. This is crazy. Second, about 1% of car sales are hybrids so this will cost the provincial governments little in the way of lost tax revenues. The governments are doing this as a PR measure, with taxpayer money. Third, governments should not play around with the tax system in this way. It invariably leads to more problems than it is worth. Fourth, no one has yet convinced me that hybrids are better for the environment. What is going to happen in a few years when we have to start disposing of these cars and their large batteries? Fifth, if these cars consume less gasoline, then that should be incentive enough to buy them. ----- Governments have a critical role to play in protecting the environment but this is not the way to do it. This is just a subsidy to a few rich, urban drivers that, for some reason, is politically possible. IMV, if we are going to subsidize people with my tax dollars, I can think of many others more deserving than buyers of hybrid cars. Link------ I can sort of understand why Obama and a Democratic congress folded on this. Obama gave out several billion dollars. I hope Harper doesn't do the same. Fortunately, Canadian federal politics are regional. Quote
M.Dancer Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 When we sold our car to the dealer, they gave us sight unseen $200. more than the book value, which was about $500 more than the value of an 11 year old car with persistant electrical troubles and other flaws.... That was the dealer and Mazda making that offer to get their cars off their lots...I have this feeling they are saving these clunkers and shipping them in containers to the US for Obama to buy.... I approve of this. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Cuzzin E Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 This is very bad economic policy. All this does is offset future demand, 2 years from now the auto manufacturers will be back hat in hand asking for another bailout. Why should the taxpayers subsidize people buying new cars? This policy also takes good cars off the resale market, bringing prices up for those who can't afford new cars. An environmentally friendly policy would encourage people to make what they have last longer, not disposing of perfectly good cars. The solution to this problem is not tricking people into more debt by purchasing new cars, the gov't should be encouraging people to save. Record job losses, record bankruptcies... cover your ears & buy a new car, your problems will go away. Quote
Moonbox Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 When we sold our car to the dealer, they gave us sight unseen $200. more than the book value, which was about $500 more than the value of an 11 year old car with persistant electrical troubles and other flaws.... Was it a Volkswagen? Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
M.Dancer Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Was it a Volkswagen? 1997 Sunfire..front end damage, had a tendency to stop running while on the highway. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Topaz Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 Was it a Volkswagen? Did you know that Volkswagen has a plant in Mexico and the workers are on strike for more pay? They make $35 per day and maybe they are getting smart to the corporations. Volkswagen did put out a recall today though. Quote
punked Posted August 20, 2009 Report Posted August 20, 2009 When we sold our car to the dealer, they gave us sight unseen $200. more than the book value, which was about $500 more than the value of an 11 year old car with persistant electrical troubles and other flaws....That was the dealer and Mazda making that offer to get their cars off their lots...I have this feeling they are saving these clunkers and shipping them in containers to the US for Obama to buy.... I approve of this. The VIN wouldn't match up. Quote
M.Dancer Posted August 21, 2009 Report Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) Did you know that Volkswagen has a plant in Mexico and the workers are on strike for more pay? They make $35 per day and maybe they are getting smart to the corporations. Volkswagen did put out a recall today though. So that about $15 more than tey could make elsewhere? They get paid 370 pesos a day, the average wage in Mexico is about......wait for it......wait..... 209 pesos a day Edited August 21, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
kimmy Posted August 21, 2009 Report Posted August 21, 2009 I started this thread elsewhere against subsidizing "hybrid" cars.Cash for clunkers? I have a good two year old car. Why should pay for my neighbour to change his 10 year old car? If the government is going to be giving money to car companies willy-nilly, this seems like a reasonable way to do it. I recall reading a long time ago that a major reason for the success of Japanese automakers are Japans' domestic laws regarding automotive emissions which require inspections (every five years?) that are so stringent that even brand new cars can't pass them. Giving people money to buy cars seems like a less draconian way of generating sales for your car-companies than forcing people to unnecessarily upgrade their vehicles every 5 years using bogus emissions inspections... By the way: Canadians can get cash for their clunkers too... indirectly. The Kidney Foundation accepts donations of unwanted vehicles. They tow the vehicle, if required, and either strip it for parts and sell it for scrap metal, or return it to drivable condition and sell it. You receive a tax credit for a charitable donation, in an amount corresponding to how much financial benefit the Kidney Foundation received from the donation. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
DFCaper Posted August 21, 2009 Report Posted August 21, 2009 So that about $15 more than tey could make elsewhere?They get paid 370 pesos a day, the average wage in Mexico is about......wait for it......wait..... 209 pesos a day That seems high. I though unskilled labour was closer to 150 pesos. I wonder if the union at that plant created the poisonous attitude that unions have up here. "It's not my job" or the general resistance to change and efficiency improvements has been a cancer here. Maybe now we can be more competitive now that Mexico's workforce is slowly becoming as unstable as ours. Although, they are probably fighting for human rights vs Slackers rights the local unions fight for. On topic, I don't think cash for clunkers will be good for much of the auto plants that we have here. The domestic plants don't build small cars, only Toyota and Honda do. Plus auto sales in Canada haven't seen the sharp decline in sales like the other countries that had implemented cash for clunkers. So why should the government??? Why subsidize the "import" brands when the Government owns the domestics... That and then young people who are under employeed will not be able to find many cars under $4500 to buy... Quote "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it" - Hellen Keller "Success is not measured by the heights one attains, but by the obstacles one overcomes in its attainment" - Booker T. Washington
M.Dancer Posted August 21, 2009 Report Posted August 21, 2009 That seems high. I though unskilled labour was closer to 150 pesos. Could be....the 209 number is the average...minimum wage is quite a bit less. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Topaz Posted August 21, 2009 Report Posted August 21, 2009 Could be....the 209 number is the average...minimum wage is quite a bit less. Dancer, maybe you should check this out. I'm saying you are wrong but the floowing says dhttp://www.blueroadrunner.com/laborlaws.htmifferent. Quote
M.Dancer Posted August 21, 2009 Report Posted August 21, 2009 Dancer, maybe you should check this out. I'm saying you are wrong but the floowing says dhttp://www.blueroadrunner.com/laborlaws.htmifferent. Yeah topaz I see your linking skills have suffered... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted August 21, 2009 Report Posted August 21, 2009 Dancer, maybe you should check this out. I'm saying you are wrong but the floowing says different. http://www.blueroadrunner.com/laborlaws.htm Fixed it for you. This says the highest DAILY minumum wage is 52.59 pesos VW pays 370 per day Now twy weally weally hard and expwain what you think I am wrong about. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
August1991 Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) When we sold our car to the dealer, they gave us sight unseen $200. more than the book value, which was about $500 more than the value of an 11 year old car with persistant electrical troubles and other flaws....That was the dealer and Mazda making that offer to get their cars off their lots...I have this feeling they are saving these clunkers and shipping them in containers to the US for Obama to buy.... I approve of this. You may be right, Morris. I am entirely in favour of American taxpayers subsidizing Canadians who purchase a new car. As a Quebec taxpayer, I prefer shifting the burden to any place with people stupid enough to pay my share.If the government is going to be giving money to car companies willy-nilly, this seems like a reasonable way to do it.I recall reading a long time ago that a major reason for the success of Japanese automakers are Japans' domestic laws regarding automotive emissions which require inspections (every five years?) that are so stringent that even brand new cars can't pass them. Giving people money to buy cars seems like a less draconian way of generating sales for your car-companies than forcing people to unnecessarily upgrade their vehicles every 5 years using bogus emissions inspections... Why should taxpayers give money "willy-nilly" to car makers, or candle makers?I live in a city (Montreal) that spends my money on bicycle routes but has collapsing overpasses. And yet, as a taxpayer, I am also subsidizing the manufacture of cars in Ontario. Why? It's madness. We supposedly want to limit CO2 emissions and global warming and yet Obama subsidizes the purchase of private cars. I don't want this "Cash for Clunker" madness in Canada. By the way: Canadians can get cash for their clunkers too... indirectly. The Kidney Foundation accepts donations of unwanted vehicles. They tow the vehicle, if required, and either strip it for parts and sell it for scrap metal, or return it to drivable condition and sell it. You receive a tax credit for a charitable donation, in an amount corresponding to how much financial benefit the Kidney Foundation received from the donation.Different story. Edited August 22, 2009 by August1991 Quote
Guest Oldcrow Posted August 22, 2009 Report Posted August 22, 2009 Well our Government gave our money to the automotive company's to help bail them out.. Should have let them go Bankrupt and found there own funds for survival.. That being said, our Government should now give us the taxpayer something in return. Why not give us three or four grand towards the purchase of a new car. I'm sick of this lousy Government doing what they want when they want! Quote
August1991 Posted August 22, 2009 Author Report Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) Well our Government gave our money to the automotive company's to help bail them out.. Should have let them go Bankrupt and found there own funds for survival..That being said, our Government should now give us the taxpayer something in return. Why not give us three or four grand towards the purchase of a new car. So OldCrow, you object to the government giving money to car manufacturers but you agree if the government gives money to car manufacturers if ordinary people choose to give the money.How does that change anything? It's still other people's money. Oldcrow, you have merely changed who decides who gets the money. It is still other people's money. I disagree with the whole idea of taking money from people like you and me and giving it to corporations - however governments or anyone else decides how to give the money. I'm sick of this lousy Government doing what they want when they want!I suggest that you go back to the "That being said" idea. IOW, I suggest Old Crow that you think again before posting. Edited August 22, 2009 by August1991 Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted August 22, 2009 Report Posted August 22, 2009 Cash for clunkers? I think not, then again I was against the auto bailout in the first place. The program would make sense to those that supported the bailout, but it makes no sense to me. Either we are a capitalistic society or not, this kind of thing suggests not. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted August 22, 2009 Report Posted August 22, 2009 Where do all these "clunkers" go - we can't even find a place to bury household garbage let alone dump a couple of tons of plastic grease and steel. The ruse they like to use is that "cluckers" pollute - what a joke - it's just buisness types manipulating the wanna be green mind. Every clunker you recycle if you can will produce a lot of toxins - and the pay back will never be seen. Human beings have evolved or should I say de-evolved into creatures with to many arififical body parts - in the shape of a shell that is a car! The car companies should have been allowed to collapse totally. Look at Cuba - they have clunkers that are 40 years old and running well. Why do we have to continue to support the spoiled and intergenerationally rich - they are not doing a good job - fire everybody Quote
Topaz Posted August 22, 2009 Report Posted August 22, 2009 Where do all these "clunkers" go - we can't even find a place to bury household garbage let alone dump a couple of tons of plastic grease and steel. The ruse they like to use is that "cluckers" pollute - what a joke - it's just buisness types manipulating the wanna be green mind. Every clunker you recycle if you can will produce a lot of toxins - and the pay back will never be seen. Human beings have evolved or should I say de-evolved into creatures with to many arififical body parts - in the shape of a shell that is a car! The car companies should have been allowed to collapse totally. Look at Cuba - they have clunkers that are 40 years old and running well. Why do we have to continue to support the spoiled and intergenerationally rich - they are not doing a good job - fire everybody The clunkers are going to the scrap yards, from the news, they said this one scrap yard had 400 come in just in one day and another 400 was due shortly. In Canada, I heard Chrysler is giving up to $7500. if you buy a new car. I'm keeping my car, if they get rid of all the older cars, maybe mine will be worth more in few years. Quote
fellowtraveller Posted August 23, 2009 Report Posted August 23, 2009 The most astonishing fact in this thread is the tale of a 1997 Sunfire that is still running. Wow. Quote The government should do something.
madmax Posted August 23, 2009 Report Posted August 23, 2009 Cash for clunkers? I think not, then again I was against the auto bailout in the first place. The program would make sense to those that supported the bailout, but it makes no sense to me. Either we are a capitalistic society or not, this kind of thing suggests not. We are a Capitalist society. Corporate Welfare Bums have existed as long as their has been "Capitalist" at the trough. From wiki... David Lewis... He led the NDP through the 1972 federal election in which he uttered his best known quotation calling Canadian corporations "corporate welfare bums".[99] Quote
madmax Posted August 23, 2009 Report Posted August 23, 2009 In Canada, I heard Chrysler is giving up to $7500. if you buy a new car. I'm keeping my car, if they get rid of all the older cars, maybe mine will be worth more in few years. Not if its a Topaz... Quote
Oleg Bach Posted August 23, 2009 Report Posted August 23, 2009 Can we trade in fat bitter wives - these clunkers should be worth something? Or maybe not? Quote
M.Dancer Posted August 25, 2009 Report Posted August 25, 2009 The most astonishing fact in this thread is the tale of a 1997 Sunfire that is still running.Wow. Yes....but it had the tendancy to cut out after 4 hours of highway driving. Another thing in it's favour was there was not one spec of ruct on the body or under carriage...the muffler mount is another story. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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