Views of Islam

[Shraytus]

Discrimination is nothing new to humankind, and in this modern era, it's common for less educated individuals to label the entire Muslim population as .... well you know how they're labelled. So, as intelligence scholars here, let's hear your opinion, some practical experience, like meetings and travel to the Arab world would be appreciated as well.

[AngusThermopyle]

it's common for less educated individuals to label the entire Muslim population as .... well you know how they're labelled.

I find this statement to be presumptious and arrogant at the highest order.

As for travel in those parts of the world, the last time I was in Egypt was back in 90, I would never go back again. A few high lights of the trip were a tour bus full of Germans being bombed with multiple fatalities and traders trying to trade a fishing boat and a Camel for one of our blond female crew members. draw your own conclusions.

[M.Dancer]

traders trying to trade a fishing boat and a Camel for one of our blond female crew members. draw your own conclusions.

How much did she eventually go for?

[Argus]

Discrimination is nothing new to humankind, and in this modern era, it's common for less educated individuals to label the entire Muslim population as .... well you know how they're labelled. So, as intelligence scholars here, let's hear your opinion, some practical experience, like meetings and travel to the Arab world would be appreciated as well.

Does your evaluation of the intelligence of a poster depend on their agreement with you?

The Koran was written long ago. So was the Bible. The difference is that centuries ago, religious scholars began a long process of reevaluating the beliefs people had ascribed to the Bible, and modernizing those beliefs in tune with the modernization of society. The harsher, more violent elements of the book were basically discarded.

This never happened with the Koran. Nor can it. The Muslims consider that the last interpretation, some four hundred odd years ago, I believe, was perfect, and every word in the Koran is perfect, and any attempt to change or redefine its meaning is heresy. And since the Koran teachers an entire way of living, including the laws people should live under (unlike Jesus, Muhammad was a warrior prince and ruler) much of the Islamic world finds itself in stasis, stuck in the past, unable to progress.

Their education lags the world and continues to fall farther behind. Of the top 500 universities in the world, ranked according to quality of education, none are in Islamic countries.

If you really want to get a good idea of what's wrong with the Islamic world, read the following citation by a Pakistani university teacher.

Academic and cultural freedoms on campuses are highly restricted in most Muslim countries. At Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad, where I teach, the constraints are similar to those existing in most other Pakistani public-sector institutions. This university serves the typical middle-class Pakistani student and, according to the survey referred to earlier, [5] ranks number two among OIC universities. Here, as in other Pakistani public universities, films, drama, and music are frowned on, and sometimes even physical attacks by student vigilantes who believe that such pursuits violate Islamic norms take place. The campus has three mosques with a fourth one planned, but no bookstore. No Pakistani university, including QAU, allowed Abdus Salam to set foot on its campus, although he had received the Nobel Prize in 1979 for his role in formulating the standard model of particle physics. The Ahmedi sect to which he belonged, and which had earlier been considered to be Muslim, was officially declared heretical in 1974 by the Pakistani government.

Science and the Islamic world

[Muddy]

Christians had their dark days too. But they evolved. Can Islam evolve? As noted,Christ was a Prince of Peace and love. Good start.The hope is in the youth who are more tolerant. In the middle east ,I believe that hope of modernizing Islam is in Iran. I know how it looks right now ,but the youth of that country are educated and are striving for a modern life of dating and the other norms western kids enjoy.

If the followers of Islam want acceptance in a modern world they must speak up when Islamic terrorists target , kill and maim the innocent non combatants. Not all of Islam followers are terrorists ,but it seems the vast majority of terrorists in todays world are followers of strict Islamic teaching.

How can one not look with a prejudicial eye upon the followers. Thank good ness we have some courageous followers now speaking up.

[lictor616]

Discrimination is nothing new to humankind, and in this modern era, it's common for less educated individuals to label the entire Muslim population as .... well you know how they're labelled. So, as intelligence scholars here, let's hear your opinion, some practical experience, like meetings and travel to the Arab world would be appreciated as well.

Islam is one of the three desert dogmas that. (like Christianity) selected ignorant and illiterate boors as apostles and made believers emulate the intellectual processes of vegetables.

Like the Bible, its historical value is virtually nil. Like the Bible, there numerous flaws and contradictions within the text of the Qur'an. And for what is called 'human interest' it cannot vie with Flaubert or Thackery or Dickens. But persons who think a god the author should overlook their god's awkwardness.

Islam is a cancerous ideology, an ugly way of viewing of the world and anti-intellectual. It has no place in any civilized country, and it especially has no purpose in the West.

Edited July 31, 2009 by lictor616

[M.Dancer]

And for what is called 'human interest' it cannot vie with Flaubert or Thackery or Dickens or Tolkien.

Proof the stupidity abounds...

[lictor616]

Proof the stupidity abounds...

jeez look at how immediately hateful you get Dancer! shheesh we haven't even dialogged (er i mean insult each other) in weeks, how about a "hello" first maybe?

yeah I scrambled that one up, remove Tolkien ...

i changed that sentence from "literary quality" to "human interests".

[M.Dancer]

yeah I scrambled that one up, remove Tolkien ...

i changed that sentence from "literary quality" to "human interests".

.. too stupid to grasp his stupidity.

[GostHacked]

How much did she eventually go for?

This is a legitimate question. I love it !!

[DogOnPorch]

Islam = Peace

[Sir Bandelot]

There is no religion, just a product of our minds, thoughts, and deeds. Islam does not exist. Christianity, does not exist. There is only the mind of man and all the good and evil that comes out of it, the same in any society.

[jbg]

Discrimination is nothing new to humankind, and in this modern era, it's common for less educated individuals to label the entire Muslim population as .... well you know how they're labelled.

By failing to condemn the violence, ignorance and intolerance of many Muslim lands, the Muslim people, including most so-called "moderates" have earned themselves the approbrium from which they suffer.

[Guest American Woman]

Discrimination is nothing new to humankind, and in this modern era, it's common for less educated individuals to label the entire Muslim population as .... well you know how they're labelled. So, as intelligence scholars here, let's hear your opinion, some practical experience, like meetings and travel to the Arab world would be appreciated as well.

Since Egypt was mentioned, my daughter (a natural blue eyed blond in her early twenties) traveled to Egypt on vacation, by herself, three years ago. She had a great time, and the week went by without incident.

Since Obama was evidently born in Mombasa, I'll also mention that my daughter and I traveled there on vaction four years ago, when there was a travel warning not to go there issued by the U.S. government. We went by train, from Nairobi, and again, found nothing but friendliness towards us while we were there (the whole time we were in Kenya, actually). We experienced nothing but love for America.

It's funny how stereotypes and misconceptions abound, because when I mentioned that Nairobi was considered the second most dangerous city in the world and wondered aloud what the first might be, all of the British tourists we were with assumed it "must be somewhere in the United States." And they were serious. Furthermore, I couldn't convince them otherwise.

As for how the entire Muslim population is labeled, first of all, they aren't "labeled" that way by everyone by any stretch of the imagination. I know you said "by less educated people," not everyone, but I'm not sure education has anything to do with who thinks what.

I recently read the book by bin Laden's sister-in-law, Carmen bin Laden, "Inside the Kingdom: My Life in Saudi Arabia," and it's a very interesting, informative read. It took her ten years to do it, but she divorced her Saudi husband (from outside Saudi Arabia so Saudi laws wouldn't apply, which means so her kids wouldn't go to her husband) to keep her daughters from being raised in that environment. She said besides objecting to the way women were treated, her daughters would come home from school with 'we hate jews' and 'death to Israel' written, by them, in their notebooks. They were parroting what they were being taught in school.

She says, in her mind and experience, Muslim law always comes first, so even when people there don't agree with it, when push comes to shove, they will usually silently stand by and 'honor it' and the customs of Islamic nations. I'm paraphrasing there, but she says we must be aware of this, and we must not, in our tolerance, tolerate their intolerance. She said too many women there are accepting of their way of life and thought she, along with all westerners, were going straight to hell. She said when they would look at her, she knows they would think 'you are going to hell,' while she would look at them and think 'you are living in hell.'

I by no means paint all Muslims with the same brush, far from it, but I now believe that those who point out that there isn't enough objection to what is done in the name of Islam do have a valid point.

Edited August 10, 2009 by American Woman

[JB Globe]

So, as intelligence scholars here, let's hear your opinion, some practical experience, like meetings and travel to the Arab world would be appreciated as well.

You clearly haven't spent too much time on this board if you're expecting scholarly debate on issues pertaining to Islam.

Welcome to the gutter.

[GostHacked]

You clearly haven't spent too much time on this board if you're expecting scholarly debate on issues pertaining to Islam.

Welcome to the gutter.

I will have to agree here. What starts out as a genuine scholarly debate often ends up with name calling and such by page 3. The quality of some of these interjections are laughable at best. (yes some of mine can be included in there)

American Woman

Since Egypt was mentioned, my daughter (a natural blue eyed blond in her early twenties) traveled to Egypt on vacation, by herself, three years ago. She had a great time, and the week went by without incident.

Egypt is in my top 5 destinations. Has always been in my top five. I must see those pyramids for myself! Because after seeing the pictures of the Rockies in BC and Alberta this year in person, pictures just can't give you that real sense of awe. So I have been wondering about Egypt and security for westerners. But now, I am definatley going.

[jbg]

I'm paraphrasing there, but she says we must be aware of this, and we must not, in our tolerance, tolerate their intolerance. She said too many women there are accepting of their way of life and thought she, along with all westerners, were going straight to hell. She said when they would look at her, she knows they would think 'you are going to hell,' while she would look at them and think 'you are living in hell.'

I by no means paint all Muslims with the same brush, far from it, but I now believe that those who point out that there isn't enough objection to what is done in the name of Islam do have a valid point.

I couldn't agree more. If Muslims want Westrn support rather than suspicion and even hatred, the moderate and responsible Muslims must stand up and be counted.

[JB Globe]

I will have to agree here. What starts out as a genuine scholarly debate often ends up with name calling and such by page 3. The quality of some of these interjections are laughable at best. (yes some of mine can be included in there)

Yeah, it's that, plus the gross generalizations, taking facts out of context, omitting other facts, and not being aware of one's own biases & knowledge about the subject at hand that are the problems here.

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman

Egypt is in my top 5 destinations. Has always been in my top five. I must see those pyramids for myself! Because after seeing the pictures of the Rockies in BC and Alberta this year in person, pictures just can't give you that real sense of awe. So I have been wondering about Egypt and security for westerners. But now, I am definatley going.

Should be an awesome trip-- I would love to see the pyramids myself. It's like you said, pictures just can't do such grand scenery justice. My daughter went horse-back riding at the Pyramids and really enjoyed it. She did travel around Egypt a bit, so she took cabs and buses, and I can't really remember if she stayed at hostels there or not, but if not, I know she didn't stay at pricey hotels and was fine.

[posted to Shraytus]You clearly haven't spent too much time on this board if you're expecting scholarly debate on issues pertaining to Islam.

With all due respect, your posts certainly haven't added any pertinent scholarly debate to the thread.

[Oleg Bach]

Should be an awesome trip-- I would love to see the pyramids myself. It's like you said, pictures just can't do such grand scenery justice. My daughter went horse-back riding at the Pyramids and really enjoyed it. She did travel around Egypt a bit, so she took cabs and buses, and I can't really remember if she stayed at hostels there or not, but if not, I know she didn't stay at pricey hotels and was fine.

With all due respect, your posts certainly haven't added any pertinent scholarly debate to the thread.

"Scholarly?" - not everything is about school - what's it like to be a professing professor professing? Speaking of Egypt - spoke to a Russian immigrant to the area - she said she fell in love with the place-- and stayed ---not everyone withers off to Israel you know..There is a whole world out there and it is what you make it - Jezz - that was not very scholarly - but personal--- I would rather have a report from a human living in Egypt than a schooler.

[GostHacked]

Christians had their dark days too. But they evolved. Can Islam evolve? As noted,Christ was a Prince of Peace and love. Good start.The hope is in the youth who are more tolerant. In the middle east ,I believe that hope of modernizing Islam is in Iran. I know how it looks right now ,but the youth of that country are educated and are striving for a modern life of dating and the other norms western kids enjoy.

I'd also say there is a better chance in Turkey for Islam to mature. They would be the first Islamic country to be part of the EU and NATO if accepted into those entities. They are trying for sure. Turkey is also trying to be western at the same time it is Islamic in nature. Iran may have a chance if other countries stop meddling in their affairs.

I had a muslim roomate some time ago (had to eventually kick him out because he made direct insults and threats to me and my other roomate... no to mention the theft of other roomates items... long story) he was not a hardcore muslim, and did not really follow the faith at all. But anyways, I had the chance to actually pick up and go through his copy of the Koran. If I recall it was in arabic and english. And when it was all said and done, he agreed it is just like the bible and other religious texts. It is a general guide to life and should never be taken litteraly because of the time frame in which it was written.

I am not sure what triggered his rage towards me and my other roomate, which is another story altogether.

American Woman. I am going to be talking to a travel agent in the next month to see what it will cost for a week or so in Egypt. Life is short!! Explore the world.

[jbg]

I'd also say there is a better chance in Turkey for Islam to mature. They would be the first Islamic country to be part of the EU and NATO if accepted into those entities. They are trying for sure. Turkey is also trying to be western at the same time it is Islamic in nature.

Turkey is in NATO. The EU must be another story because open borders would pose a severe problem unless Turkey closed its borders to certain Muslim nations. That is scarcely imaginable.

Iran may have a chance if other countries stop meddling in their affairs.

Maybe Iran would have a chance if they didn't kill Westernizers.

I had a muslim roomate some time ago (had to eventually kick him out because he made direct insults and threats to me and my other roomate... no to mention the theft of other roomates items... long story)

That goes to the very core of why Islam is a cult and not a religion. Their ethical system has different standards for how Muslims and non-Muslims are treated. Any real religion must be neutral on most such issues.

I am not sure what triggered his rage towards me and my other roomate, which is another story altogether.

Sudden Jihad syndrome (link).

[Sir Bandelot]

That goes to the very core of why Islam is a cult and not a religion. Their ethical system has different standards for how Muslims and non-Muslims are treated. Any real religion must be neutral on most such issues.

Ahem! Ahem! Choke!

When you find such a real religion, please share.

I assume it would be one, without human beings...

[jbg]

Ahem! Ahem! Choke!

When you find such a real religion, please share.

I assume it would be one, without human beings...

Judaism, Christianity?

[monkeyman]

To be honest, the more bad things I heard about Islam were said by people who never met some ever!

Now, the problem is not ISLAM, it's the culture in some countries. For example, did you guys know that the right to vote for women was given in Tunisia like 20 years before France. Tunisian women are as free as French, North American etc. Political women are well known in Indonesia (biggest Muslim country, Bangladesh and many more).

I think it's written in the Koran (I'm Muslim but never read it!) " If someone steels, cut his hand". That sentence is applied only in Saudi Arabia, which means that 95% of Muslim countries don't to that and 99.9% of Muslim people. Muslim people are victimized because the Medias tend to show what the want, since they want us to think that Islam is bad and Muslim people are bad. They prefer to show us some terrorists, some women that are dominated, instead of showing us the friendliness of Muslim people etc .

My parents come from Tunisia and I went there many times, I went also in Morocco with a White Canadian girlfriend, she didn't have ONE PROBLEM. People there are friendly, no one asked her if she wanted to marry him of them etc. They were flirting a lot, but it has nothing to do with it ! Go in an African Christian country and you'll see that they flirt a lot also.

Some Muslim people are assholes, it's true, but some French, English, Spanish, Chinese are also.

People who say that Islam cannot evolve don't know much, how come Tunisia evolved? Morocco? Indonesia, Turkey, Bosnia? It's not about the religion, it's about the culture in some countries. And Yes, in Morocco you will find an ANECDOTE that says a woman was killed by her husband because she cheated on him, it happens and will always do. But it's not the MAJORITY of people who are like that.

By the way, Muslim people where ''are'' allowed to have many wifes in the past, but it was not to dominate women, it was because women could not live by themselves, so they needed a man to help them to survive. As I said before, MOST OF THE MUSLIMS don't have many wifes, as a matter of fact I never knew one, in my family, here or etc.

The problem is not Islam, it's the interpretation of it by a couple of assholes.

Edited August 13, 2009 by monkeyman