Canuck selling out Canada's Health Care on Fox News

lily · July 21, 2009

You can choose your own doctor, if you can find one. It is illegal to pay him or her.

Which is not that same as claiming that in Canada it's illegal to choose your own doctor.

August1991 · July 21, 2009

Which is not that same as claiming that in Canada it's illegal to choose your own doctor.

Lily, I wrote above that is illegal (in principle) to choose your own doctor and pay him/her.

To clarify, I then added that it is illegal (in principle) to pay the doctor of your choice. In theory, the provincial health system will pay the doctor you choose - so you are correct to quibble. But since increasingly fewer people can find a family doctor, they accept whomever they can find. What kind of choice is that?

Lily, you may be in the enviable position of having a trusted family doctor and maybe you even have a family member or close friend who works in the health system.

That's not the case of many Canadians, particularly immigrants - unless they can use contacts within their community.

----

IME, our health system has a military "I'm alright, Jack" mentality. For many people, those with good inside contacts in particular, it's a functioning system. For others, it's a bureaucratic nightmare.

Edited July 21, 2009 by August1991

lily · July 21, 2009

Lily, I wrote above that is illegal (in principle) to choose your own doctor and pay him/her.
To clarify, I then added that it is illegal (in principle) to pay the doctor of your choice. In theory, the provincial health system will pay the doctor you choose - so you are correct to quibble. But since increasingly fewer people can find a family doctor, they accept whomever they can find. What kind of choice is that?

It's illegal to pay your doctor. Why do you insist on keeping the "choosing him/her" in there?

Lily, you may be in the enviable position of having a trusted family doctor and maybe you even have a family member or close friend who works in the health system.

Yes, I do have a trusted family doctor, and when he retires, I can't see I'll have a problem finding a new one.

My sister is a nurse... but that's completely irrelevant.

IME, our health system has a military "I'm alright, Jack" mentality. For many people, those with good inside contacts in particular, it's a functioning system. For others, it's a bureaucratic nightmare.

THat's funny. I usually associate the "I'm all right Jack" line of thinking with those such as bush/cheney who prefer the American system because they can afford it. THey don't seem to care about those who can't.

bush_cheney2004 · July 21, 2009

Upon further reflection.....
Nope. you still don't have a point.

But I do have better health care...a fair trade.

Nope. I would say that Canadians on average have better than average teeth.

Good...must not be paid by government insurance.

Hint: next time you use an example of why private care is better, choose someone who didn't die prematurely of what may turn out to be doctor error.

You missed that point as well....choice is a very American idea. "Give me liberty or give me death".....it's a very American kind of thing.

lily · July 21, 2009

But I do have better health care...a fair trade.

Better health care than.... me? I'm not convinced of that.

You missed that point as well....choice is a very American idea. "Give me liberty or give me death".....it's a very American kind of thing.

You know, just because you type up some words in a reply window doesn't mean you're saying anything especially clever.

Or relevant.

bush_cheney2004 · July 21, 2009

Better health care than.... me? I'm not convinced of that.

Do you have 100% coverage for medical, dental, and prescription drugs. How fast can you get an MRI or CAT scan?

How about colonoscopy? It's not really a fair fight , because I have "double coverage" through two employers.

You know, just because you type up some words in a reply window doesn't mean you're saying anything especially clever.
Or relevant.

Hey rookie, I've done OK around here before you ever showed up. Try to keep up with us if you can.

lily · July 21, 2009

Do you have 100% coverage for medical, dental, and prescription drugs. How fast can you get an MRI or CAT scan?
How about colonoscopy? It's not really a fair fight , because I have "double coverage" through two employers.

I work in the dental industry and I don't even have dental... go figger. :blink:

We have decent drug coverage through Pharmacare, I pay a monthly premium in addition to the taxes for my medical. My son had a CAT scan fairly quickly several years ago... it was non-emergency, or it would have been faster. Colonoscopy? No idea.

Hey rookie, I've done OK around here before you ever showed up. Try to keep up with us if you can.

Rookie? On most forums I'd be referred to as a n00b.

bush_cheney2004 · July 21, 2009

I work in the dental industry and I don't even have dental... go figger.

Strike 1.....

We have decent drug coverage through Pharmacare, I pay a monthly premium in addition to the taxes for my medical. My son had a CAT scan fairly quickly several years ago... it was non-emergency, or it would have been faster. Colonoscopy? No idea.

Strike 2....

Rookie? On most forums I'd be referred to as a n00b.

Strike 3....You're OUT!

lily · July 21, 2009

Strike 1.....
Strike 2....

Strike 3....You're OUT!

Too bad you're a lousy catcher. You dropped the ball, allowing me to steal 1st.

Gawd, can you please try really really hard to make sense?

Just once?

Edited July 21, 2009 by lily

jdobbin · July 21, 2009

Yes, private insurance bureaucrats make health care decisions in the US just like government bureaucrats do in Canada. But there's a difference.
Firstly, this woman had the option of going to the US for treatment. If the US didn't exist, what would she do? In Canada, it is illegal to choose your own doctor and have private treatment.

Aside from paying for surgery yourself, what option do you have when private insurance isn't around or denied?

One of the largest component of bankruptcies is health care costs.

In the US, there are a multitude of HMOs and health insurance companies. People pick and choose.

And can you conclude what some of the problems from this might be?

What is the safety valve in a mostly private system?

I am largely in favour of some kind of State involvement in health care and insurance. But it is utopic to believe that Canada's system is perfect and will last for another 1000 years. Canada's system is hardly a model.

You haven't indicated what sort of state involvement.

bush_cheney2004 · July 21, 2009

Too bad you're a lousy catcher. You dropped the ball, allowing me to steal 1st.
Gawd, can you please try really really hard to make sense?

Just once?

Nope...you are just warm-up entertainment until the main act shows up. This OP is really about Canadian doubts about their own health care "system", not mine.

August1991 · July 21, 2009

THat's funny. I usually associate the "I'm all right Jack" line of thinking with those such as bush/cheney who prefer the American system because they can afford it. THey don't seem to care about those who can't.

Lily, I appreciate your honesty.

In some ways, the Canadian health system changes the idea of "rich". In America, a person is rich if they have money. In Canada, a person is "rich" if they have patience or contacts in the health system.

----

Consider this "hypothetical" story: a smart engineer with a sick son in need of an operation.

In America, the engineer works overtime to make the money, or get the job to cover the son's treatment - before the son is sick.

In Canada, the engineer discusses with her husband in bed at night whether the specialist really knows what to do, how to get the son moved to a different hospital, on a better waiting list, or whether the specialist really has pull with the surgery people. She asks friends about contacts and wonders whether their condo in Fort Lauderdale will change things.

And in Europe? What happens in sophisticated/civilized Europe? When a German engineer has a sick son, what does she do?

Edited July 21, 2009 by August1991

Topaz · July 21, 2009

On the news tonight they had the company that made that film and they said they didn't go to her ,she came to them. The woman had to borrow money and take a second mortgage on her home, just like most US citizens have to do. Both, the US and Canadian systems have problems. Right now, the US is having shortages of GP's because they only make 199,000 yearly over specializing and making $500,000 and up. Frankly, I don't think people who become Drs., first for the money make good caring doctors. So the major differences of the two syatem is we Canadians have to wait and the US have to pay out of their own pockets to medical care. The HMO's will only pay for so much and most time its not want the patient or the doctor thinks what is best for the patient. Just recently, we had to take over our medical payments here in Ontario because of layoff until contract is signed. For drug plan, eye care, semi- private, and dental and a $34 monthly life insurance, we have to pay 305.00 monthly. Hopefully the company and the workers will come to an agreement and it won't be for more than two months but on a one-pay cheque that alot!

capricorn · July 22, 2009

Frankly, I don't think people who become Drs., first for the money make good caring doctors.

What. You think doctors become doctors because they answer to a higher calling, like priests or nuns? Maybe in the Hollywood version, but not in real life.

Don't kid yourself. Health care professionals are in it because the money's good and the availability of work practically assured.

M.Dancer · July 22, 2009

Don't kid yourself. Health care professionals are in it because the money's good and the availability of work practically assured.

Don't forget the intellectual challenge...if it was only about money and job security they could be plumbers...

capricorn · July 22, 2009

You're right Dancer. Looking at an MRI or an x-ray of my large intestine would certainly be mind boggling. Whereas a plumber could look after a blockage with a snake. :lol:

Riverwind · July 22, 2009

At very least healthcare should be means tested.

I disagree. Means tested programs create disincentives for people who earn close to the cutoff income level. What we need is an end to a notion that all types of care will be provided for everyone at any time. The public system should provide a basic level of coverage to everyone and people with the means should be entitled to purchase supplimentary insurance that covers the difference. We also need governments to get out of the business of running hospitals and focus entirely on providing health care coverage.

bush_cheney2004 · July 22, 2009

Shona Holmes testimony before a Congressional committee:

My name is Shona Holmes and I am a Canadian citizen but I am eternally grateful to Americans for their health care system....

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cac...hl=en&gl=us

lily · July 22, 2009

Nope...you are just warm-up entertainment until the main act shows up. This OP is really about Canadian doubts about their own health care "system", not mine.

No. It's about A Canadian's doubts.

Lily, I appreciate your honesty.
In some ways, the Canadian health system changes the idea of "rich". In America, a person is rich if they have money. In Canada, a person is "rich" if they have patience or contacts in the health system.

----

Consider this "hypothetical" story: a smart engineer with a sick son in need of an operation.

In America, the engineer works overtime to make the money, or get the job to cover the son's treatment - before the son is sick.

In Canada, the engineer discusses with her husband in bed at night whether the specialist really knows what to do, how to get the son moved to a different hospital, on a better waiting list, or whether the specialist really has pull with the surgery people. She asks friends about contacts and wonders whether their condo in Fort Lauderdale will change things.

And in Europe? What happens in sophisticated/civilized Europe? When a German engineer has a sick son, what does she do?

huh?

Rich is rich. If we're talking money, it means the same everywhere. It's just a matter of how much money makes you rich in any given area... cost of living factored in, of course.

When my son needed surgery, we went to the specialist our doctor referred us to, did the tests and booked the time. That's it. No fretting, no shopping around.

Same with Dad's hip surgeries, Mum's elbow surgery, her stroke... everything, actually.

punked · July 22, 2009

huh?
Rich is rich. If we're talking money, it means the same everywhere. It's just a matter of how much money makes you rich in any given area... cost of living factored in, of course.

When my son needed surgery, we went to the specialist our doctor referred us to, did the tests and booked the time. That's it. No fretting, no shopping around.

Same with Dad's hip surgeries, Mum's elbow surgery, her stroke... everything, actually.

It is like he does not even live in this country eh?

nicky10013 · July 22, 2009

You have created a right where none exists...not in your Constitution or Charter. You are making it up as you go along.
You do not have a right to a triple organ transplant.

Indirectly...yes. I can exchange my money for the services of another. If I am born with a genetic disorder, is that less fair than those who are not so born?

Get a job.

I don't give a crap about which doctor I see...in the "states". We know how it works in Canada, especially the wait queues and rationing....no thanks.

But you said that ALL human beings had a right to health care? How can you be so selfish?

They had to change some of the words or we would know where it was copied from (US Declaration of Independence).

We do....see Blackwater.

Telling people to get a job doesn't admit the fact that a vast amount of people who can't afford care do have jobs and can't afford care because costs of skyrockted so much despite it being a free market system. But who cares about them?

I also do believe that people deserve health care. Though we can't physically provide care for people in Sub-Saharan Africa, despite how unpragmatic my position may be is that everyone regardless of where they come from or where they go should be given health care when they enter the country. As you say, it's the humanitarian thing to do.

Also, how dare I question your knowledge of the Canadian health care system when not only have I gone through the system but all of my family. Of course there are waits, however, they're no where near as catastrophic as you or other free market conservatives believe. Non-essential services you wait for, but you will be seen if you're ill.

What's the point of defending the Declaration of Independence when you clearly don't uphold the values it proscribes?

Why not go all the way? Let Blackwater take over the entire pentagon. Get rid of it all! Government fire sale! Soon enough, libertarian conservatives will get their wish: the United States of Somalia.

July 22, 2009

Telling people to get a job doesn't admit the fact that a vast amount of people who can't afford care do have jobs and can't afford care because costs of skyrockted so much despite it being a free market system. But who cares about them?
I also do believe that people deserve health care. Though we can't physically provide care for people in Sub-Saharan Africa, despite how unpragmatic my position may be is that everyone regardless of where they come from or where they go should be given health care when they enter the country. As you say, it's the humanitarian thing to do.

Also, how dare I question your knowledge of the Canadian health care system when not only have I gone through the system but all of my family. Of course there are waits, however, they're no where near as catastrophic as you or other free market conservatives believe. Non-essential services you wait for, but you will be seen if you're ill.

What's the point of defending the Declaration of Independence when you clearly don't uphold the values it proscribes?

Why not go all the way? Let Blackwater take over the entire pentagon. Get rid of it all! Government fire sale! Soon enough, libertarian conservatives will get their wish: the United States of Somalia.

Why not make it the United States of the Somalia Republic. USSR. :lol:

bush_cheney2004 · July 23, 2009

Telling people to get a job doesn't admit the fact that a vast amount of people who can't afford care do have jobs and can't afford care because costs of skyrockted so much despite it being a free market system. But who cares about them?

Correct...many people do have one or more jobs and manage to get it done. The US health care system delivery via employer based insurance was driven by labor unions who wanted something in the face of wage and price controls during WW2. There is no social contract for "free health" care.

I also do believe that people deserve health care. Though we can't physically provide care for people in Sub-Saharan Africa, despite how unpragmatic my position may be is that everyone regardless of where they come from or where they go should be given health care when they enter the country. As you say, it's the humanitarian thing to do.

This platitude solves nothing, and only reinforces the lack of care for "all human beings". That's why I challenged such a position. If no care or resource sharing for "them", why must it be so domestically?

Also, how dare I question your knowledge of the Canadian health care system when not only have I gone through the system but all of my family. Of course there are waits, however, they're no where near as catastrophic as you or other free market conservatives believe. Non-essential services you wait for, but you will be seen if you're ill.

Waiting is your choice and civic duty.....not mine or my neighbor's. It is not an American value to suffer equally in queue when one has the means to do better. What are you waiting for? Why do Canadians flee south for faster treatment?

What's the point of defending the Declaration of Independence when you clearly don't uphold the values it proscribes?

But I am....health care is not an enumerated or natural right. You do not have the right to a lung transplant.

Why not go all the way? Let Blackwater take over the entire pentagon. Get rid of it all! Government fire sale! Soon enough, libertarian conservatives will get their wish: the United States of Somalia.

That would be unconstitutional.

M.Dancer · July 23, 2009

This platitude solves nothing, and only reinforces the lack of care for "all human beings". That's why I challenged such a position. If no care or resource sharing for "them", why must it be so domestically?

While I certainly don't buy that healthcare is a universal human right, it is a Canadian right. Like the US constitution applies only to those on US soil, the Canadian Health act applies here. The real difference between a legal contract like the constitution and the health act is cost and the ease of mutation. Our right to first class heathcare should not be shackled by anachronistic ideaology and we must always be looking at ways to change and improve delivery and a find better ways to fund and share the costs.

bush_cheney2004 · July 23, 2009

While I certainly don't buy that healthcare is a universal human right, it is a Canadian right. Like the US constitution applies only to those on US soil, the Canadian Health act applies here. The real difference between a legal contract like the constitution and the health act is cost and the ease of mutation. Our right to first class heathcare should not be shackled by anachronistic ideaology and we must always be looking at ways to change and improve delivery and a find better ways to fund and share the costs.

I think we have already covered this before....your "right" to healthcare is the right to a queue that may or may not result in access to "care". There is no right to actual care, organs, therapies, etc., if only because of the logistics involved. Health care fails the basic tests for enumerated and natural rights.

http://jpands.org/hacienda/aubrey.html