Progressive Conservatives

Alta4ever · July 18, 2009

By Canadian standards they were far right. The Conservative Party is centre right.

no you mean by communist standards.

kimmy · July 18, 2009

I came across this article and I think its good reading and asked the question are the PC's actual gone from Canada's poilitical arena? Could the PC's come back and IF they did how many would leave the Conservatives to go back to the original Conservative party? http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/667580

Party's over for Canada's Progressive Conservatives
We are all the losers as Red Tories no longer have a prominent role in this country's public life

Welcome back! How was your trip to 1993?

-k

Smallc · July 18, 2009

no you mean by communist standards.

The party was full of social conservatives. Communism is a fiscal policy and one that has very few supporters in Canada. You can try to deflect by throwing words around, but the reality is that on social values, the Reform party had no chance of connecting with the vast majority of people in central and eastern Canada.

Alta4ever · July 18, 2009

The party was full of social conservatives. Communism is a fiscal policy and one that has very few supporters in Canada. You can try to deflect by throwing words around, but the reality is that on social values, the Reform party had no chance of connecting with the vast majority of people in central and eastern Canada.

The party was full of small c conservatives, something you would not be familar with.

Machjo · July 18, 2009

I came across this article and I think its good reading and asked the question are the PC's actual gone from Canada's poilitical arena? Could the PC's come back and IF they did how many would leave the Conservatives to go back to the original Conservative party? http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/667580

The Progressive Conservative Party never left, except in name. Legally, since the Progressive Conservative Party had amalgamated with another party, the dissenters who refused such amalgamation had no choice but to abandon the name and form a new party, the Progressive Canadian Party. I'm sure they took the acronym into consideration in the naming of their party. Their website is here:

http://progressivecanadian.ca/

Smallc · July 18, 2009

Yes, clearly they were very mainstream, what with their strong opposition to abortion, gay rights, minority rights, immigration of almost any kind, it's lack of support for national unity, and their view that aboriginals are a bunch of freeloaders (even if I agree with them that change is needed in that area). Yep, they were very centrist....if they were based in the deep south.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Smallc

Machjo · July 18, 2009

And I wouldn't be surprised if a few progressive conservatives have switched to the Green Party. No, the Green Party is indeed different from the old Progressive Conservative Party, but it still comes closest among the big 5 parties.

kimmy · July 18, 2009

Yes, clearly they were very mainstream, what with their strong opposition to abortion, gay rights,

I don't know if you've looked at a public opinion poll on either of these topics, but opposing unregulated access to abortion and gay marriage *are* mainstream opinions.

minority rights,

bullshit.

immigration of almost any kind,

bullshit.

it's lack of support for national unity,

Since the Clarity Act, that crowning jewel of Liberal national unity achievements, was lifted more or less word-for-word from Preston Manning's own policy statements on the subject, I think you're full of crap here as well.

and their view that aboriginals are a bunch of freeloaders

bullshit.

(even if I agree with them that change is needed in that area). Yep, they were very centrist....if they were based in the deep south.

How do you sleep at night?

-k

Smallc · July 18, 2009

Nothing like coming out swinging...even when you're wrong I suppose. I will go even further. The Reform Party was on the extreme right in Canada, and many members could have ran for the CHP with no problem. Even further, Manning was a hypocrite who did one thing and said another, and let Stornoway stand as an example of that.

Smallc · July 18, 2009

Manning denies the francophone people of this country as equal partners in Confederation. He had very little desire in doing anything to have Quebec stay. Unlike other federal parties, Reform didn't believe in the entire country, and much of that is seen in supporters today.

Reform believed in further decentralizing what is already the most decentralized federation in the world. There is probably nowhere else where provinces or states have as much power, but of course, such talk appeased to the Alberta base.

Reform wanted to sell of the most visible of federal assets that provide important services across the country. This included Canada Post and the CBC. They suggested introducing private insurance along with public insurance in healthcare. it would be fine if this was something that would make the system better....of course, their desire for change wasn't driven by this. It was an ideological opposition to government. They also supported tax cuts...and never explained how they would balance the budget or maintain necessary levels of government service with these cuts. That is beyond reasonable fiscal conservatism. Of course, the party has nothing to do with being reasonable.

Reform had a goal of 'lessening the dependence on government of aboriginal people.'

Reform called for abortion to be made illegal, not regulated, which is really an argument about nothing anyway since very few of the abortions that would be regulated are even performed.

The Reform was simply opposed to same sex anything. Lets not even go to marriage. Articles (referred to on Wiki) talk about how many of the members of the party saw it as morally wrong. If Reform had it's way, the state would have probably returned to the bedrooms of the nation.

Reform's blue sheet talked about how they were opposed to "suddenly altering the ethnic makeup of Canada." Scary stuff. They also opposed official bilingualism and multiculturalism. Essentially, the opposed large parts of what Canada is. They wanted a single Canadian identity, something that hasn't existed at any time since Confederation.

Most disturbing Reform believed that the majority (as long as they were white [that belief of course doesn't extend to all members]) was always right. There was almost no protection against a majority opinion. That's where the threat to minority rights comes in.

In the words of one supporter, when talking about Manning: "You’re a fine white person. You know, we are letting in too many people from the Third World, the low blacks, the low Hispanics. They’re going to take over the province.”

Or: “Let them [Quebeckers] go. We don’t need Quebec.”

Now, these things aren't true of all Reform members, but they are true of a much higher percentage than in other parties.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Smallc

Smallc · July 18, 2009

In the words of Dalton Camp in 1994:

"The speechifying gives off acrid whiffs of xenophobia, homophobia, and paranoia—like an exhaust—in which it seems clear both orator and audience have been seized by some private terror: immigrants, lesbians, people out of work or from out of town and criminals."

Moonlight Graham · July 18, 2009

The term "progressive conservatives" is an oxymoron, so they never existed in the first place.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Moonlight Graham

Argus · July 18, 2009

The party was full of social conservatives.

Being a social conservative does not, believe it or not, equate to being "far right".

Smallc · July 18, 2009

In Canada, it does. Canadians are OK with the fiscal right (to a point), but most have no desire to have their social lives dictated by policy.

Argus · July 18, 2009

Yes, clearly they were very mainstream, what with their strong opposition to abortion, gay rights, minority rights, immigration of almost any kind, it's lack of support for national unity, and their view that aboriginals are a bunch of freeloaders (even if I agree with them that change is needed in that area). Yep, they were very centrist....if they were based in the deep south.

There was never a view the Reform Party held which wasn't held by huge numbers (40%-50% of Canadians, be it on immigration, abortion or gay rights.

What you simply can't wrap your mind around is that so many Canadians believe entirely differently than you do on a wide variety of subjects. I mean, I'm pro-choice, but I freely acknowledge that huge numbers of Canadians have serious issues with wide open abortion and deserve to be heard.

But you people on the left don't seem to feel that people who have a different belief than you do on social issues have any legitimate right to be heard or represented. You sneeringly dismiss them with a variety of pejorative terms without regard to their numbers.

Argus · July 18, 2009

Nothing like coming out swinging...even when you're wrong I suppose. I will go even further. The Reform Party was on the extreme right in Canada, and many members could have ran for the CHP with no problem. Even further, Manning was a hypocrite who did one thing and said another, and let Stornoway stand as an example of that.

So you think even if 40%-50% of Canadians hold a belief which is different than yours, they are still "extremists" and "far right", have I got that, genius?

Smallc · July 18, 2009

I haven't searingly dismissed anyone. The Reform party didn't share the views of the majority in almost any case. That was never their purpose. Of course you're in favour of their more bigoted positions, but It's hard to believe that most Canadians think that we should outlaw abortion.

Smallc · July 18, 2009

So you think even if 40%-50% of Canadians hold a belief

I have yet to see an example of this support for their beliefs.

Argus · July 18, 2009

Nothing of substance.

What a frightened little man you must have been, cowering under your bed lest the evil westerners with their "radical" ideas come get you.

All your babbling drivel above is the figment of your imagination. You take a small fraction of the truth on any given subject, slant it, add in paranoid delusions, and then start weeping in fear and pulling at your hair because the "extremists" are gonna come get you.

Argus · July 18, 2009

I haven't searingly dismissed anyone. The Reform party didn't share the views of the majority in almost any case. That was never their purpose. Of course you're in favour of their more bigoted positions, but It's hard to believe that most Canadians think that we should outlaw abortion.

You didn't answer the question. Do you think that on an issue where 30%-40%-50% of Canadians believe the opposite of you they are still extremists and "far right"?

I never said most Canadians wanted to "outlaw" abortion either. This is just an example of how you take a viewpoint, slant it, and add your own petulant whiny accusations.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Argus

Sir Bandelot · July 18, 2009

What you mean, in this towering intellectual argument, is that you hate conservatives, and want a new liberal party which somehow you imagine would take votes away from the Conservative Party - so long as it had the name "conservative" somewhere in it - even though there was nothing conservative about it.

Are you saying, the Progressive Conservatives were actually another Liberal party? Maybe, when compared to the CPC? Its just a question of how much right wing, and where we are being right wing, and where we are not...

Sir Bandelot · July 18, 2009

You want a party that "smallc" can support - in other words, another liberal party.

I see no reason to be insulted, sir... rest assured there will be a response to this. Your insults have simply gone too far this time.

Molly · July 18, 2009

It's all a matter of how one balances those priorities, Argus. You might be tepidly pro-choice, but it's not particularly important to you. Not important enough to sacrifice any other priorities.

I'm a fiscal conservative, but I'd campaign NDP before I'd put up with (insert expletive)s who would undermine that fundamental right.

For instance.

Sir Bandelot · July 18, 2009

Brian Mulroney killed the federal PC's. After him, they deserved to die as a party, and much of the blame lies on Mulroney himself, IMV. But there is room for another conservative party, eastern conservatives lets say. IE. More financial, less biblical...

Argus · July 18, 2009

I have yet to see an example of this support for their beliefs.

Well let's look at abortion since you brought that up. The first poll I found was an angus-reid poll from last year which should reassure you in that it states that HALF of Canadians are in favour of continued abortion access under any circumstances.

Of course, the converse is that 42% of Canadians believe abortions should be restricted in some way. But I guess they're just all far right extremists.

angus-reid on abortion

As to immigration, the first thing which turned up was, unsurprisingly, from an anti-immigraton web site. but I'm going to post it anyway because it cites a wide pantheon of opinion polls on immigration which you can, if you choose, verify. In virtually every poll taken large numbers, from 40%-65% are uncomfortable with the current levels of immigration.

Opinion polls on immigration

What other subject did you have in mind, genius? Oh wait, gay rights. This was a subject the Liberals mostly ignored not that long ago. In fact, during the Reform era the Liberals actually altered their initial draft of a new marriage act so as to insert words to reassure their own caucus, that the new bill would absolutely in no way, shape or form suggest any legitimacy to gay marriage. I gather a lot of Liberals had problems with the notion. But then, Canadians' opinion on gay marriage has been evolving over the past ten years. In 2005, when the law was changed (this was after Reform's time) 40% of Canadians were still opposed to legalizing gay marriage. We sure do have a lot of Far Right Extremists in this country!

Angus reid on gay marriage