10 Billion for military equipment

Argus · July 8, 2009

I hope you're talking about the Sea King, since the one that crashed yesterday isn't old at all.

The one that crashed yesterday was a crappy, cheap civilian model painted green, which never should have been in Afghanistan.

Jerry J. Fortin · July 8, 2009

Well guess what?

I am on your side of the street! I still think killing the Arrow lead to this problem we now face. Yet the reality is that Canadians suffer from the delusion of entitlement.

We live in a nanny state with cradle to grave benefits. Changing that mindset is the reality before you. I would suggest that we could and should do something about the problem. I even know how we can do it, but I would get burned at the stake for trying it.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

The one that crashed yesterday was a crappy, cheap civilian model painted green, which never should have been in Afghanistan.

Army generals and experts disagree. I'll take their word. It crashed into a wall in a blinding sand storm. It never should have been flying in that.

M.Dancer · July 9, 2009

Army generals and experts disagree.

Disagree with what? That they have to make do with what is given to them?

Or are you seriously trying to foist on us that the Griffon is a military helicopter well suited to afghanistan and the military leadership loves it, wants it and wouldn't have it any other way?

Please, don't treat people as fools.

Army Generals and experts Indeed...

The CH-146 was ruled out for the Afghan mission by General Rick Hillier when he was Chief of Defence Staff in 2008 due to being underpowered. It has also been criticised for being underpowered by Martin Shadwick, a defence analyst and professor at York University. Shadwick stated in July 2009:[8]
“ Its engines are fine for most domestic requirements in Canada and a more moderate temperature, but [the Griffon] doesn't really have the horsepower to reach its full potential in a place like Afghanistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CH-146_Griffon#Criticism

Smallc · July 9, 2009

It wasn't good in the roll that it was being considered for at the time. The Chinook is performing that job. That isn't the roll that it's performing now, and it is well suited for the mission that it's performing now. The Defense Minister defended it today and so did a retired general.

I heard it on The World this hour...or The World at 6, one of the two.

M.Dancer · July 9, 2009

The Defense Minister defended it today and so did a retired general.
I heard it on The World this hour...or The World at 6, one of the two.

The Minister who sent them and Lou Cuppens who works for Bell defended the copter? Wow....

Smallc · July 9, 2009

They are being used for recon and support. That's what they're good at. No, they aren't ideal for the heat, but they're reliable and capable. Nothing can fly properly in a dust storm, and this will probably come down to human error.

M.Dancer · July 9, 2009

They are being used for recon and support.

And armed escort. Something they were not designed to do.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

Similar helicopters used to do it all the time in the US (until quite recently actually). The crash had nothing to do with that mission anyway. This was a support mission.

M.Dancer · July 9, 2009

Similar helicopters used to do it all the time in the US (until quite recently actually). The crash had nothing to do with that mission anyway. This was a support mission.

Until recently.....mid 70s....

It was a suport mission in a nation that they aren't suited for. There can be no denying that better copters exist for the theatre....we just ignored the need to have them.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

Of course they exist. Fortunately we don't deny the reality that we have to live within a budget. Or at least we didn't. We can't always have the best of everything. No force ever can. We have to make due and live within our approximately $20B budget.

M.Dancer · July 9, 2009

Of course they exist. Fortunately we don't deny the reality that we have to live within a budget. Or at least we didn't. We can't always have the best of everything. No force ever can. We have to make due and live within our approximately $20B budget.

Tell that to a widow. Tell the widow that funding gay pride and the calgary stampede were more important than having proper equipment so her husband had to fly a civilian aircraft designed for europe and north america in an asian desert.

Tell her our army is only worth 20B...that our security is only worth 20B....

Get back to me with her answer.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

I'll tell her exactly what I just said. I believe in social liberalism and fiscal conservatism. Large military budgets (we already have one) aren't always compatible with that, especially given our current situation.

Also, as I've already said, it looks like this accident may come down to human error. What should I tell the widow about that?

Wilber · July 9, 2009

We lost a helicopter due to an accident flying in a war zone. It probably won't be the last. Tragic for the people involved, their friends and families but hardly relevent to this topic. Helicopters are inherently more dangerous than fixed wing aircraft merely because of what they are capable of doing.

Wilber · July 9, 2009

I believe in social liberalism and fiscal conservatism. Large military budgets (we already have one) aren't always compatible with that, especially given our current situation.

Neither are wars. Do it right or don't bother.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

We make due with what we have. With the mentality of do it right or don't bother, we'd all still be sitting in our caves grunting. I don't look forward to such a reality.

I wish that we could spend much more on the military. I truly due as I above most other people have great pride in the institutions of this country. That said, this country has many institutions and priorities. Now we as individuals might not always put great importance on certain priorities, but that doesn't mean that they aren't important. We have to allocate money wisely, and often that means that everything has to make due with less than it needs. We do this all of the time and we still manage to get by.

Wilber · July 9, 2009

We make due with what we have. With the mentality of do it right or don't bother, we'd all still be sitting in our caves grunting. I don't look forward to such a reality.
I wish that we could spend much more on the military. I truly due as I above most other people have great pride in the institutions of this country. That said, this country has many institutions and priorities. Now we as individuals might not always put great importance on certain priorities, but that doesn't mean that they aren't important. We have to allocate money wisely, and often that means that everything has to make due with less than it needs. We do this all of the time and we still manage to get by.

Who is we? Is your neck on the line? We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world yet we struggle to keep a couple of thousand troops in the field during a shooting war. Pretty pathetic.

Wilber · July 9, 2009

With the mentality of do it right or don't bother, we'd all still be sitting in our caves grunting.

Yes, it was all those folks doing things half assed that got us to where we are.

Moonlight Graham · July 9, 2009

I'm so-so on the military funding. On one hand, i don't support the war in Afghanistan since it is unwinnable the way it is fundamentally being handled so more equipment for crap like this angers me.

On the other hand, our military is a joke and needs better funding so it can at least stand on 2 feet. In the end i suppose it's needed, but will be used poorly.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Moonlight Graham

Smallc · July 9, 2009

We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world yet we struggle to keep a couple of thousand troops in the field during a shooting war. Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and we have one of the largest defense budgets in the world in total dollars and are higher than the European average in per capita spending. We are doing a great deal of work and spending a great deal of money, but the pot isn't endless. Perhaps we should raise taxes?

The fact is that we have a good helicopter that is not ideal for Afghanistan (what is) but does the job. There was an accident. These things happen. It's tragic when they do, but it's reality.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

On the other hand, our military is a joke

I think not. Some of our equipment may be old, but the Canadian Forces aren't nearly a joke.

Wilber · July 9, 2009

Yes, and we have one of the largest defense budgets in the world in total dollars and are higher than the European average in per capita spending. We are doing a great deal of work and spending a great deal of money, but the pot isn't endless. Perhaps we should raise taxes?

If any of that is true it is because we let it go to seed. That's the false economy, instead of updating weapon systems on a regular systematic basis and spreading out the cost, we let them all wear out at once then have a fit because of the cost of replacing them all at once. In the meantime, the people who put their lives on the line for the self proclaimed best place to live in the world, do it with substandard equipment. We did the same before the two world wars and the result was, a lot of people got killed who shouldn't have.

If we really believe this is the best place in the world to live, you would think we would take more interest in defending it.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

We really do think that this is the best place in the world to live. I'm sure many of us would lay down our lives for it. We're simply not willing to lay down our wallets when we live so securely.

Wilber · July 9, 2009

We really do think that this is the best place in the world to live. I'm sure many of us would lay down our lives for it. We're simply not willing to lay down our wallets when we live so securely.

Why do we live so securely? Without an effective means of defending yourself, all you could do is lay down your life.

Smallc · July 9, 2009

And who do we have to defend ourselves against? How much money is it going to cost? We have a relatively effective plan in place now for modernization and expansion. I think that we should let it work. There isn't much else we can do short of raising taxes.