'They saved the NDP from itself'

[punked]

Perhaps, as I mentioned, they don't see it as a problem as you do.

I said the system as it applied to Manitoba was unfair. You said that you thought a form of PR might be good. Well, that was a form of PR and it wasn't good.

If you want a pure form of PR then look at Israel. You think that is a great system?

You can't do PR right. If you you don't like first past post then I suggest you go for run off elections. It might kill my party but it is fairer then first past the post, I personally like it how it is.

[myata]

If you want a pure form of PR then look at Israel. You think that is a great system?

I guess it depends on priorities. "Governability" or choice? Everybody choses what's closer to their heart.

[August1991]

A fairly harsh indictment of all parties but a big jab at the NDP from a guy who knows the party.

The NDP just elected its first government in Nova Scotia. Vancouver and Toronto arerun by NDP mayors. Montreal could possibly elect a mayor in November that is from the left wing of the PQ. The US just elected arguably its most interventionist and leftist president ever. Newsweek proclaimed that "We are all socialists now". The federal NDP still polls in the high teens.

----

I frankly think that partisan Dobbin is just frustrated that his beloved Liberals have no growth potential. What will the Liberals do if they are out of power?

[Smallc]

I guess it depends on priorities. "Governability" or choice?

Right now we have both. I think I'll stick with that.

[jdobbin]

The NDP just elected its first government in Nova Scotia. Vancouver and Toronto arerun by NDP mayors. Montreal could possibly elect a mayor in November that is from the left wing of the PQ. The US just elected arguably its most interventionist and leftist president ever. Newsweek proclaimed that "We are all socialists now". The federal NDP still polls in the high teens.

I think what happened in Nova Scotia has a lot to do with an implosion of Tories, don't you?

As for municipal politics, there has always been in recent years a tug of war between left and right politicians.

You think this bodes well for the federal NDP. You think your observations have anything to do with that of a prominent NDPer who wrote the column?

I frankly think that partisan Dobbin is just frustrated that his beloved Liberals have no growth potential. What will the Liberals do if they are out of power?

Methinks, that you are just frustrated with me over your party struggling to get out of minority status and not acting like conservatives.

[jdobbin]

I guess it depends on priorities. "Governability" or choice? Everybody choses what's closer to their heart.

Think for the most part voters have chosen governability. It isn't like they haven't voted for it a number of time.

[myata]

Well, then, we have nothing to complain about, and nobody to blame. The system with only two "feeders" at the trough is inherently slow to react, and only in the utmost need and any idea that anything can be done about it without addressing the core problem is either an illusion, or a distraction. As I mentioned earlier, the simpliest and the most efficient strategy to bring the change is to demonstrate that this model is out of touch with reality.

[jdobbin]

As I mentioned earlier, the simpliest and the most efficient strategy to bring the change is to demonstrate that this model is out of touch with reality.

If it was simple and efficient, it would be easy to do. However, since it requires a Constitutional amendment, it is not at all simple nor would it efficiently represent certain regions of the country.

[myata]

If it was simple and efficient, it would be easy to do.

There're aren't many cool things around that were easy to do. Like inventing a car (before it, a bike) wasn't an easy business; neither were airplanes; radio; etc; it's easy to make a bunch of children, but not easy at all to bring them all all up as successful individuals. So if in the federal politics, we're only in the business of doing "easy", better be ready for a good measure of mediocre, wasteful and plain dumb useless. And don't complain, because that is our choice.

..nor would it efficiently represent certain regions of the country.

In other words, a vote in one "certain region" of the country is worth more than somewhere else? Are we all democratically aware of the fact and agree that we want it that way?

[jdobbin]

So if in the federal politics, we're only in the business of doing "easy", better be ready for a good measure of mediocre, wasteful and plain dumb useless. And don't complain, because that is our choice.

I think what I am saying is that if you want to open the Constitution, expect it to be very, very hard. Run for office and see for yourself.

In other words, a vote in one "certain region" of the country is worth more than somewhere else? Are we all democratically aware of the fact and agree that we want it that way?

I don't know that I have seen a form of PR that is fair to the regions. Do you have an example?

Edited June 27, 2009 by jdobbin

[Remiel]

I think what I am saying is that if you want to open the Constitution, expect it to very, very hard.

You are certainly right on that account. Some people are so pessimistic about it that they think that it is unopenable at this point.

[punked]

You are certainly right on that account. Some people are so pessimistic about it that they think that it is unopenable at this point.

That is because the last time we opened it, it almost tour the country apart.

[Remiel]

That is because the last time we opened it, it almost tour the country apart.

I am well aware of that, naturally.

[myata]

You are certainly right on that account. Some people are so pessimistic about it that they think that it is unopenable at this point.

That would be a pretty damning conclusion. The only way from that state of affairs would be down. If there's a major problem one can't even think of challenging, they are done for, and I won't even have sympathy because it's entirely self imposed.

[Topaz]

I've listened to the NDP in the Commons and their questions are very good except the Tories have no respect for them until they need their votes. They seems to be for the common person and if they run the country no one knows for sure how they would do. I think the Libs and the Tories wouldn't want that because the two parties know that they take turns being in the government. Perhaps the NDP should do what Harper did with the Alliance, change your name to Conservatives and get the votes. The NEWER DP, the newer Conservative DP. The NDP and the Greens should join as one making them a little stronger.

[myata]

No, the system will not reform itself, it'll be up to us to force it do so. If we're content with endless faceless Lib-Con slow dance we'll have it for a long long time, and we shouldn't complain about lack of choice, parties being the same etc, because, understand, it's in the nature of this system (and our aging society). If we want the change we'll have to force one of the duet to agree to it, even reluctantly. How - by following the promise to not vote for it, until it accepts the need for the change.

Regarding PR and regional representation, in a country as geographically spread and diverse as ours, there's certainly a case for the second, democratically elected chamber of the house, with fixed (or adjusted in some way) representation by regions. One'd think that adoption of constitution would mart the start of the democratic trek, not the end of it. If we, collectively believe otherwise, we can all go to sleep, because all good things were done for us in the past, and there's no more that could be done here.

[Molly]

That's hilarious!

First insist that, because the parties do what parties do, we should provide them with even more, and more direct power by taking it away from constituencies.... then, because constituencies will obviously be very badly (if not un-) represented, propose adding another 'elected chamber'!

When your fixit requires that large a patch before it even starts, it's tough to think of it as an 'improvement'.

[jdobbin]

No, the system will not reform itself, it'll be up to us to force it do so. If we're content with endless faceless Lib-Con slow dance we'll have it for a long long time, and we shouldn't complain about lack of choice, parties being the same etc, because, understand, it's in the nature of this system (and our aging society). If we want the change we'll have to force one of the duet to agree to it, even reluctantly. How - by following the promise to not vote for it, until it accepts the need for the change.

Even if you did get that, you would still require the provinces to go with it. Don't forget that you had Ottawa agree twice to changes only to have it shot down by the provinces.

Regarding PR and regional representation, in a country as geographically spread and diverse as ours, there's certainly a case for the second, democratically elected chamber of the house, with fixed (or adjusted in some way) representation by regions. One'd think that adoption of constitution would mart the start of the democratic trek, not the end of it. If we, collectively believe otherwise, we can all go to sleep, because all good things were done for us in the past, and there's no more that could be done here.

For you to get your wishes on this, you would have to find support for it within the provinces themselves. I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying I've seen no evidence that the many of the provinces are even open to much change in the Senate.

[normanchateau]

I frankly think that partisan Dobbin is just frustrated that his beloved Liberals have no growth potential.

And the Conservatives have growth potential with social conservative Harper as their leader?

[August1991]

Well, then, we have nothing to complain about, and nobody to blame. The system with only two "feeders" at the trough is inherently slow to react, and only in the utmost need and any idea that anything can be done about it without addressing the core problem is either an illusion, or a distraction.

What?

The NDP has a seat at the table and a rather wide seat (despite Dobbin's OP and Caplan's spurious piece). Moreover, the BQ also has a place at the table.

----

You can play around with electoral systems just like Disneyland plays around with its pricing structure or ebay may alter its auction rules but the basic fact remains: if Canadians don't like the party in power, it's history.

I frankly consider our electoral system "random choice" of a "local fiefdom" and I'm happy with that since it's far, far better than "dictator of all for life". Imagine living in a country where Stephen Harper or his handpicked successor was Supreme Leader of the sole government. Like federal President Bush Jnr (and his friends) in the US, federal PM Harper will be gone in a few years.

The essence of a good electoral system is to ensure an easy way to throw the buggers (and their friends) out, and to ensure that they can't do much while they're there.

Edited June 28, 2009 by August1991

[normanchateau]

Personally, I would like to see Taliban Jack get around 25% of the vote.

Taliban Jack? It was Taliban Steve who said we'd never cut and run in Afghanistan then not only announced the date on which Canada would cut and run but also bizarrely went on CNN to tell Americans why we'd cut and run:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...me=&no_ads=

Other than to stay in power, there are few remaining principles in the Harper arsenal.

[jdobbin]

The NDP has a seat at the table and a rather wide seat (despite Dobbin's OP and Caplan's spurious piece). Moreover, the BQ also has a place at the table.

That is not what the post was and you know it.

It was how Layton's position left him no room except to say no even if it meant that his party would face damage from it.

Caplan is an NDPer. His observations would seem pertinent as to what the party faces in the next while.

[punked]

That is not what the post was and you know it.

It was how Layton's position left him no room except to say no even if it meant that his party would face damage from it.

Caplan is an NDPer. His observations would seem pertinent as to what the party faces in the next while.

Accept what he says isn't true. When he wrote that they were still accepting resolutions for the convention and had not published the resolutions which have been accepted. I should know I wrote a resolution for the convention so no what he says isn't true.

[jdobbin]

Accept what he says isn't true. When he wrote that they were still accepting resolutions for the convention and had not published the resolutions which have been accepted. I should know I wrote a resolution for the convention so no what he says isn't true.

Then I fully expect that Caplan's points in his article will be refuted by Layton or some other higher party official in a letter to the editor. I haven't seen one yet.

[punked]

Then I fully expect that Caplan's points in his article will be refuted by Layton or some other higher party official in a letter to the editor. I haven't seen one yet.

You honestly think we have one resolution at the convention? Honestly you believe that? I knew Liberals were east to fool but seriously.