Hand Sanitizers denied

[Argus]

The substitutes that were suggested to go north are not as good. The wipes have been rejected since 2002 as being unproven at best. The non-alcoholic cleaners don't work effectively against viruses.

Well, all I can say is I've been using the wipes the last three years, whenever I leave my office and have to touch doors, escalators and elevator buttons, and while colds and flue spread wildly in these buildings in the winter I rarely catch anything.

[sharkman]

A few thoughts:

Those on reservations consider themselves to be separate nations for the most part and have campaigned for self government. They are dropping the ball on this big time, and so go to the usual response of blaming the Canadian government. The chiefs should be getting off their asses to provide proper soap and even 5 gallon buckets of water for homes with no running water instead of whining about the issue, which regularly seems to be their only response to any new problem.

I can't believe I'm on the same side as dobbin and Bubber on something!

[Bonam]

WTF? Why can't natives buy their own hand sanitizers? Do bureaucrats wash natives' hands too?

That was pretty much my reaction, and really the only "discussion" this particular issue deserves.

[jdobbin]

Well, all I can say is I've been using the wipes the last three years, whenever I leave my office and have to touch doors, escalators and elevator buttons, and while colds and flue spread wildly in these buildings in the winter I rarely catch anything.

They are likely quite good for bacterial infections. A virus takes 70% alcohol to limit the effects and the wipes probably fall short of that in places such as hospital settings. Also, as one doctor was describing the situation with wipes: It takes one hand to clean the other with a wipe whereas both hands are used with the gels to clean each other. In the short time, it takes to use the wipe from one hand to the other, you can re-infect the other hand.

As many people have seen when surgeons scrubs their hands, they do so with both hands in the water at the same time and shut off the flow of water with a foot pedal or in older hospitals with their elbow.

In all the talk about the sanitizers, I think the real concern on reserves is that when a vaccination is created, there are some elders and holistic practitioners who are urging their fellow First Nations residents not to take the injection because they say it will make them sick.

[Sir Bandelot]

Liberal MPs who visited the affected native reserves on Tuesday condemned the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, saying there has been a lack of action in helping the community prevent and cope with the outbreak.

"What we saw was so sad and an embarrassment to all the people of Canada," said Liberal health critic Carolyn Bennett. "The residents of Garden Hill have been abandoned by the Conservative government."

Manitoba chiefs want H1N1 emergency declared

[Sir Bandelot]

In all the talk about the sanitizers, I think the real concern on reserves is that when a vaccination is created, there are some elders and holistic practitioners who are urging their fellow First Nations residents not to take the injection because they say it will make them sick.

So what, there are a lot of people who think that. And some of them are not natives.

What does this statement have to do with the governments inadequate response ingetting supplies out to the remote communities.

Are you a proponent of forcing vaccinations?

[sharkman]

Liberal MPs who visited the affected native reserves on Tuesday condemned the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, saying there has been a lack of action in helping the community prevent and cope with the outbreak.

"What we saw was so sad and an embarrassment to all the people of Canada," said Liberal health critic Carolyn Bennett. "The residents of Garden Hill have been abandoned by the Conservative government."

Manitoba chiefs want H1N1 emergency declared

And did these Liberal MPs bring any hand sanitizer? Didn't think so.

[jdobbin]

So what, there are a lot of people who think that. And some of them are not natives.

Anyone with medical knowledge knows that the vaccine is the way to go to stop the pandemic from tearing through a community.

What does this statement have to do with the governments inadequate response ingetting supplies out to the remote communities.

Just that there is a debate that goes back and forth about fighting a pandemic. On the issue of hand sanitizer, the fears of the pandemic were weighed against the diseases of alcoholism. Even First Nations leaders were worried about rushing sanitizers in.

Are you a proponent of forcing vaccinations?

Not at all. I am saying that a pandemic can be a lot worse because people refuse to get vaccinated. Those that don't get vaccinated risk spreading the illness to others.

Are you a proponent of not getting vaccinated? And if so, what medical reason do you give to support that view?

Edited June 25, 2009 by jdobbin

[joepublic]

This is on the federal government and their refusal to help by putting a extra tax on the indian reservation casinos.

With that extra money they can increase social programs to help those communities.

[Argus]

So what, there are a lot of people who think that. And some of them are not natives.

What does this statement have to do with the governments inadequate response ingetting supplies out to the remote communities.

I'm with those who ask why the natives can't buy their own freaking soap or hand sanitizer. Are they little babies or ignorant savages roaming in the woods who have to be guided by a benevolent, patronizing govenrment agent to learn how to wash their hands?

[Sir Bandelot]

I'm with those who ask why the natives can't buy their own freaking soap or hand sanitizer. Are they little babies or ignorant savages roaming in the woods who have to be guided by a benevolent, patronizing govenrment agent to learn how to wash their hands?

I don't know. But it seems to me that is the governments role in any part of the country- to provide supplies and whatever other resources are needed to cope with an emergency. Whether that be a natural disaster, environmental catastrophe or disease outbreak. Especially in remote areas.

Would the poster raise the same criticism for a similar emergency in a small remote, non-native community?

[Bonam]

I don't know. But it seems to me that is the governments role in any part of the country- to provide supplies and whatever other resources are needed to cope with an emergency. Whether that be a natural disaster, environmental catastrophe or disease outbreak. Especially in remote areas.

Would the poster raise the same criticism for a similar emergency in a small remote, non-native community?

I dunno about Argus, but I sure as heck would. Except it wouldn't need to be raised in the first place, because they would have just gone to the store and bought their own hand sanitizer.

[Borg]

Funny thing is I do not believe the feds have a dog in this fight

Time for those lazy assed chiefs to find some personal responsibility and man up - if this stuff is important to the indians then go out and get it - they have money and they have telephones and they can stop acting like whining babies with no ability to fend for themselves.

This is simply another political whine

No one buys it for me and the family

Borg

[lictor616]

Canada's health minister must apologize on behalf of Health Canada for withholding hand sanitizers from flu-stricken reserves because they contained alcohol, one of Manitoba's grand chiefs said Tuesday.

A representative from the Assembly of First Nations told the committee time was wasted discussing whether it would be appropriate to send the disinfectants to communities battling alcohol addiction.

"If we're going to fight this pandemic flu, we have to do something. Something has to be done now, and not when a virus has spread over the community, you don't wait for that. There should be an immediate apology issued," Garrioch said.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090623/..._hand_sanitizer

According to the article, native communities have been hit quite hard by the swine flu pandemic. It seems stupid to idly sit around debating while the disease spreads. The bureaucrats at Health Canada need a serious shake up. Is this an insult, or are they really just that stupid?

Once upon a time the white man committed genocide, by giving them fire-water. Now...

and yet another curious reminder of the world canadians have made for themselves! A Diversity which causes problems that political correctness make impossible to fix. If only we didn't have these log rolling problems!

Just like the preposterous "solvent abuse program" for natives which squanders 4 MILLION of our tax paying dollars on keeping locking devices and guarding the use of solvents (so that natives don't get all hoped up and high on them)...

we're damned if we leave em alone and we're racists if we don't!

let the lot of them figure our their own salvation. but for the love of god stop taxing me for these people!

[August1991]

But it seems to me that is the governments role in any part of the country- to provide supplies and whatever other resources are needed to cope with an emergency.

If your house was leaking water, would you wait until a government bureaucrat came and solved the problem.

SB, your viewpoint is strange and even terrifying given recent experience. Of all human institutions, surely government is one that inspires little trust. How many people died in the 20th century because they trusted various governments?

I was impressed with the people of North Dakota who faced floods a few months ago. They got together and solved the problem as individuals. Government like fire is a wonderful servant but a terrible master. Government bureaucrats should be our servants, not our masters.

[Smallc]

The reserves only declared a state of emergency today, so until today, i don't know that it was the government's responsibility to supply emergency supplies.

[Sir Bandelot]

If your house was leaking water, would you wait until a government bureaucrat came and solved the problem.

SB, your viewpoint is strange and even terrifying given recent experience. Of all human institutions, surely government is one that inspires little trust. How many people died in the 20th century because they trusted various governments?

Not if my house was leaking in water, but maybe if hundreds were, in a flood. The local stores only keep enough stuff for a few random incidents, theres not enough supplies for a mass breakout. Thats when you need an emergency shipment.

->I was impressed with the people of North Dakota who faced floods a few months ago. They got together and solved the problem as individuals. Government like fire is a wonderful servant but a terrible master. Government bureaucrats should be our servants, not our masters.

I agree, ok, to be self sufficient. Then I should stop paying all these taxes and use the money I save to buy proper supplies to protect myself. But until that system is adopted in this country, I will complain, LOUDLY, that I or others are paying for services and infrastructure but getting nothing in return.

Otherwise, what the hell are we paying for the social system... to pad their wallets? Enough with the fat cats, away with them all, be damned. But you just try and withold your taxes, see what happens. So they deserve to be confronted, and even charged, when they do a shit job. Because yes, they are our servants.

Now I know, this doesn't apply to the natives in quite the same way, They do not pay or collect taxes in their society. For them its a whole other more complex issue.

[Sir Bandelot]

let the lot of them figure our their own salvation. but for the love of god stop taxing me for these people!

The native problem will not go away, no matter how much you try to ignore it and the world is condemning Canada for not solving this issue. Whatever we have tried has not worked. It is a black mark on our conscience (if you have one). We lke to pride ourselves in our humanitarian fairness. Wake up, the stink is in your own backyard.

[lictor616]

The native problem will not go away, no matter how much you try to ignore it and the world is condemning Canada for not solving this issue. Whatever we have tried has not worked. It is a black mark on our conscience (if you have one). We lke to pride ourselves in our humanitarian fairness. Wake up, the stink is in your own backyard.

The world? Who in the world is so beyond reproach that they can actually have to gall to reprimand CANADA of all places for anything?! Who is saying this? Why even pretend to care?

Canada will never resolve its native issue short of complete separation and non intervention. Every time we deal with natives... it turns into an all-out catastrophe... and we always get the blame in the end... to hell with it!!!!!... why not recognize that we simply do not have what it takes to resolve and get control of the situation and that the natives would be ever so better off simply doing as they wish in their part of the world... whether its drinking metal polishers, chugging antibacterial purell bottles, rubbing alcohol or gas? Let em' do what they gotta do... I just don't think we should be involved in cleaning them, clothing them, showing them what to eat, how to treat their women, educate their children... if they want to not learn english or french and chew whale blubber... who are we to decide the standards for their conduct? let em do what they want... so long as they are in THEIR part of their land and we are in ours...

Let us not be so presumptuous as to know what's best for them... let them discover that for themselves.

[Sir Bandelot]

Let us not be so presumptuous as to know what's best for them... let them discover that for themselves.

We are talking about the basic necessities for life here. Thats not being presumptuous. Neither is it so easy to simply wash our hands of a situation that was created and further aggravated by previous generations, who also thought they knew what was best for natives.

->Canada will never resolve its native issue short of complete separation and non intervention. let em do what they want... so long as they are in THEIR part of their land and we are in ours...

Where would you like to draw the line? Natives legally own land that would separate this country into different regions, let alone the parts that span the Canada/ US border. The insidious nature of this problem cannot be so easily solved... if it could, it would have been done already. We made this bed, now we don't want to lie in it?

Edited June 25, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[lictor616]

We are talking about the basic necessities for life here. Thats not being presumptuous. Neither is it so easy to simply wash our hands of a situation that was created and further aggravated by previous generations, who also thought they knew what was best for natives.

->Canada will never resolve its native issue short of complete separation and non intervention. let em do what they want... so long as they are in THEIR part of their land and we are in ours...

Where would you like to draw the line? Natives legally own land that would separate this country into different regions, let alone the parts that span the Canada/ US border. The insidious nature of this problem cannot be so easily solved... if it could, it would have been done already. We made this bed, now we don't want to lie in it?

The situation would have been avoided if those previous generations NEVER MEDDLED in the first place. but they did! and today we are where we are because of it.

Basic necessities of life? Purell? I don't think so... basic necessities are food, clothing shelter... which they are perfectly capable of acquiring ON THEIR OWN.

But wait a minute... our government tells us again and again... that Diversity is OUR STRENGTH!??!

If native diversity is our "strength"... why are there "PROBLEMS"!? Why has the situation done nothing but deteriorate ... no matter how liberal and leftist we have come to be over the past centuries!?

I think i've answered the question... we DO NOT HOLD THE ANSWER... its best we just pony up, and secure our most immediate strategic lands... and let them settle nunavut or whatever... let them make money off their resources over there....

Imagine how much healthier these communities would be if we shut off all the trash food we send them... lays potato chips, pepsi, booze and mouthwash they use to get drunk with... let them be SOVEREIGN..

[Topaz]

I found the following on the net and this may help about if it kills virus or not, you judge. http://www.superbugongoingsolutions.com/no...-sanitizer.html

[Borg]

We are talking about the basic necessities for life here.

Hardly

We are talking about indians not looking after themselves - instead needing a babysitter

Time they used some of that grant money for someting other than wine - ing

Adults with personal responsibility? Or babies that needtaking care of?

They pick? You pick?

I no longer care - they can walk of the cliff and the world will continue - they never have anything good to say - and they never seem to have anything on their mind but more money from thetax payer

Almost as bad as sending money to Africa - it disappears down a dark hole

Borg

[Jerry J. Fortin]

We are talking about the basic necessities for life here. Thats not being presumptuous. Neither is it so easy to simply wash our hands of a situation that was created and further aggravated by previous generations, who also thought they knew what was best for natives.

->Canada will never resolve its native issue short of complete separation and non intervention. let em do what they want... so long as they are in THEIR part of their land and we are in ours...

Where would you like to draw the line? Natives legally own land that would separate this country into different regions, let alone the parts that span the Canada/ US border. The insidious nature of this problem cannot be so easily solved... if it could, it would have been done already. We made this bed, now we don't want to lie in it?

I will suggest that the Federal Government is going to take a hit on this. I am not very happy about that, but there it is. As much as I dislike this government, its not all their fault and I will not blame them for a disease.

The simple fact is that the First Nations are as much to blame