And another thing about that Jack Layton

[Alliance Fanatic]

Alright the ACLU is America's most left leaning organization today. The ACLU is present at most pro-choice celegrations, and gay rights parades. A few years ago a young child was raped and murdered by members of NAMBLA, who recieved materials from NAMBLA on how to rape little boys. When the parent of the boy sued NAMBLA, the ACLU jumped up to NAMBLA's defense to produce those reading materials.

http://www.thepolitic.com/articles/archive...ves/000031.html

http://www.catholicinsight.com/original/po...homo/adult.html

"Now NAMBLA (pedophilia’s biggest advocacy group) has come under the protection of the ILGA (International Lesbian & Gay Association), a group that Canadian delegates recently supported as a recipient for observer status from the UN."

SICK

[Black Dog]

Alright the ACLU is America's most left leaning organization today.

You haven't the faintest idea, do you? The ACLU fronts for a range of civil liberties issues, including abortion, but also has taken up many right-wing causes. The ACLU recently came to Rush Limbaugh's defense and also counts many hard right libertarian conservatives (such as Georgia Senator Bob Barr) among its membership. With regard to the ACLU's defense of NAMBLA, you (to my utter lack of surprise) completely misrepresent the issue.

Here's the story from the horse's mouth:

The ACLU of Massachusetts has agreed to represent the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) in a civil lawsuit brought in U.S. District Court by the family of Jeffrey Curley.

The suit, an action for wrongful death and for civil rights violations, alleges that NAMBLA is responsible for the kidnapping, rape and murder of the 10-year-old boy by Charles Jaynes and Salvatore Sicari because its publications and the material which appeared on its Internet site "urged the general public to illegally rape male children." The plaintiffs claim that Jaynes and become a member of NAMBLA approximately one year prior to the murder and that, as a result of reading its publications and the material on its web site, "became obsessed with having sex with and raping young male children."

NAMBLA, which takes the position that sexual relationships between men and boys can be appropriate and should be legal, is considered to be one of the most controversial organizations in the United States.

ACLUM Executive Director John Roberts described the concerns which prompted ACLUM to take on NAMBLA’s defense. "While we join with all others in deploring the heinous crimes committed against Jeffrey Curley, two people have been convicted of his murder and are serving life sentences. The Curley lawsuit seeks millions of dollars in damages against NAMBLA because one of the murderers allegedly looked at the organization’s publications and web site prior to committing the crimes. There was nothing in those publications or web site which advocated or incited the commission of any illegal acts, including murder or rape." 

Link

And more:

In the United States Supreme Court over the past few years, the American Civil Liberties Union has taken the side of a fundamentalist Christian church, a Santerian church, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In celebrated cases, the ACLU has stood up for everyone from Oliver North to the National Socialist Party. In spite of all that, the ACLU has never advocated Christianity, ritual animal sacrifice, trading arms for hostages or genocide. In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children.

What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.

It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today.

Link.

Also, the ILGA kicked NAMBLA out in 1994. That's 10 years ago, if you can count that high.

All of this is, of course, not really relevant to the duiscussion of NDP policy today in Canada. On that subject:

New Democrats also want to basically ban religion from nearly every aspect of Canadian life.

Prove it.

Y'know, I've know some intelligent, moderate and articulate conservatives, small-"C" and otherwise, and, while I disagree with many of their views, I respect them. AF is not one of those individuals but is a lying ignoramus who perpetuates the stereotype of conservatives as Bible-thumping, homophobic, bigotted rednecks pushing a narrow, fundamentalist agenda that would make teh Taliban proud.

[BigGunner]

Alright the ACLU is America's most left leaning organization today. The ACLU is present at most pro-choice celegrations, and gay rights parades. A few years ago a young child was raped and murdered by members of NAMBLA, who recieved materials from NAMBLA on how to rape little boys. When the parent of the boy sued NAMBLA, the ACLU jumped up to NAMBLA's defense to produce those reading materials.

http://www.thepolitic.com/articles/archive...ves/000031.html

http://www.catholicinsight.com/original/po...homo/adult.html

"Now NAMBLA (pedophilia’s biggest advocacy group) has come under the protection of the ILGA (International Lesbian & Gay Association), a group that Canadian delegates recently supported as a recipient for observer status from the UN."

SICK

Ok, well you are certainly not a genius then...I thought you were going to provide evidence to back up your libelous allegation that somehow the NDP has endorsed NAMBLA or paedophelia..

YOU make me sick.

But keep up the great work...because if you are an average sampling of what the Conservative party is all about, then they are dead in the water.

[Alliance Fanatic]

I think the fact that NDP member Svend Robinson wants it to be legal to bag 14 year old kids is proof enough. The fact is that the NDP was against the war in Afganistan and sided with Osama Bin Laden, or at least never found Bin Laden evil. I have very little respect for the narrow minded, hippy, communist, anti-west, anti-judeo christian, anti-family, anti-free market, and anti-free speech New Democrats. You know what their was a guy that was on this forum named Pellaken, who was a New Democrat, and actually made some valid points, and brought about some constructive criticism. While Black Dog, and Big Gunner, are simply the same Bev-Meslo, Marxist, Leninist people, that still believe the Bin Laden is better than Bush, and that Vladmir Lenin and Castro were the greatest leaders ever. Why don't you hippies move back to Cuba or North Korea.

Hey name calling, what you give is what you get.

[playfullfellow]

Boy have things strayed from the original thought of this thread. Before reading this forum, I didn't really know who Layton was. Couldn't really say that I cared either, never been a fan of the NDP but that is my choice. I dont need call people names and I prefer argeu my choices more sensibly. Getting back to Maples original thought about Layton uniting Broadbent as showing the NDP as being united and that for a party to show strength, they need to appear united. Very true but for bringing Broadbent back into the fold, well he is kind of old news sort of like Clark. All I ever remember of Broadbent was him screaming about something and a big vein popping out of his head. He was good at voicing his opinion but in all reality, who cares and who remembers? Broadbent wont be savy with the younger voters or get people off their butts and go out there and vote.

[BigGunner]

I think the fact that NDP member Svend Robinson wants it to be legal to bag 14 year old kids is proof enough. The fact is that the NDP was against the war in Afganistan and sided with Osama Bin Laden, or at least never found Bin Laden evil. I have very little respect for the narrow minded, hippy, communist, anti-west, anti-judeo christian, anti-family, anti-free market, and anti-free speech New Democrats. You know what their was a guy that was on this forum named Pellaken, who was a New Democrat, and actually made some valid points, and brought about some constructive criticism. While Black Dog, and Big Gunner, are simply the same Bev-Meslo, Marxist, Leninist people, that still believe the Bin Laden is better than Bush, and that Vladmir Lenin and Castro were the greatest leaders ever. Why don't you hippies move back to Cuba or North Korea.

Hey name calling, what you give is what you get.

In a free democratic society, you are totally within your rights to disagree with Svend and his approach to issues, just as I am just as free to disagree with your views on issues.

But you do not, and never have had the right to committ libel and slander against anyone, anytime, for any reason...

You have failed to demonstrate a link between the NDP and NAMBLA, you have failed to provide evidence that suggests that the NDP supports in any way paedophelia...both of which are libelous allegations.

Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are murderers, and the Republicans knew this when they supported them with money, weapons, and international political support when they were killing innocent people.

I oppose totalitarianism and dictatorship no matter what angle its coming from. Whether its fascist dictators installed by America, or Communist dictators supported by China, or the former USSR. Freedom is freedom.

I can understand your hate towards Svend. The fact that he is gay is very upsetting to a lot of fringe-right wingers. I say that because even the Conservative party and the Republican party have a small core of gay supporters, and such. But the far right, which includes white-supremists and various biggoted groups hate gays and go out of their way to commit violent crimes against them.

Even Christians do not hate gays...they certainly disapprove of the acts, but not the persons. So, which group do you belong to?

[willy]

I can understand your hate towards Svend.

I didn't see any comments about hating Svend. I wish him well. He seems a little nuts and he should take care of that.

Politically Svend had some strange ways of doing business. As an MP he had a seat at the table but he still preferred to be in the protest. I don't agree with him much in the way of policy but I do respect that he was doing what he thought was right.(my impression) Those that I know that have met him said he was a nice guy.

But the far right, which includes white-supremists and various biggoted groups hate gays and go out of their way to commit violent crimes against them.

These are not people from the right. They are people who hate. Hating is not on the political continuum. It can be done from any side of the ship, even in the middle.

When ever one party blames another for there circumstance and then vilifies that group, the result can be hate. BG you should check yourself because many of the comments you have made recently make me believe you would hate me for just being a Conservative.

If you want to through crap against the wall do it in your own house and not in the forum.

[BigGunner]

I am more than happy to debate real issues that matter with anyone in this forum. I respect your views, but of course I do not agree..

But the gloves come off when some wingbat commits slander and libels another person. If YOU were slandered, you could equally expect me to fire back in your defence.

[Black Dog]

Methinks it's time to bring "plonking" into this forum.

I for one won't be feeding any fanatical trolls anymore.

[August1991]

Methinks it's time to bring "plonking" into this forum.

I for one won't be feeding any fanatical trolls anymore.

Plonking, I gather, means filtering out certain posters from your own screen. Feeding fanatical trolls, I guess, means encouraging pointless debate.

To each one's own, but "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen..." This after all is an anonymous forum and no harm is done. Keep it all in perspective.

[Black Dog]

To each one's own, but "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen..." This after all is an anonymous forum and no harm is done. Keep it all in perspective.

True, but how many times can one attempt to counter the same baseless accusations, only to see them continue to crop up? I'm sick of A.F.'s constant repition of the same old lies and misrepresentations, so I won't be bothering with that individual anymore.

[maplesyrup]

Actually Jack Layton has nothing but absolute admiration for Tommy Douglas, and Rev Douglas is the principal reason for Dr Layton's involvement with the NDP today. Combining Jack Layton's leadership with the likes of Ed Broadbent, and the Rev Bill Blaikie, the NDP is beginning to look like a very credible alternative in the eyes of a larger and larger number of Canadian voters, as exemplified by all the most recent polls.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Alright, the left wing nuts are screwing up what I said again, I am against Svends stand on various issues, such as Euthanasia, Abortion, Age of Consent, freedom of religion, and the war on terrorism. I don't believe in Svends belief that it is alright for a 14 year old to recieve anal copulation from a 45 year old sicko. I also believe that Svend Robinson should have been charged for murder for having assisted in a suicide. I have also reiterated before in the forum that I have a relative who is gay, and have no hatred towards him. However I do have a problem when communities are forced to have gay pride parades, showcasing naked men, and acts of sado-masichism. So Black Dog and Big Gunner, you guys should go back to Rabble if you have a problem with free speech. Rabble seems to take away peoples posts in the night, and also seem to quench any opposing debate, which is Stalinist, and is obviously fine with you guys.

Was'nt Svend Robinson the guy that went on the march for those people at Concordia that hated Jewish people, and did'nt those people that Svend protested with spit on jews at concoridia. So in conclusion if you support Svend Robinson you are an anti-semite. Wow its that easy to screw up what people say, now I know how Black Dog and Big Gunner feel.

[Black Dog]

Because, apparently, I'm a sucker for punishment, I'm going back into the breach.

. I don't believe in Svends belief that it is alright for a 14 year old to recieve anal copulation from a 45 year old sicko.

Canada's age of consent law in a nutshell:

In Canada, sexual activity is allowed for minors 14 years and older so long as the relation is not one based on trust or dependency (IE having sex with a teacher, police officer or guardian).  In cases based on those type of relationships, you cannot have consensual sex with a person until they reach 18 years of age.

Even consensual activity with those under 14 but over 12 may not be an offence if the accused is under 16 and less than two years older than the complainant. The exception, of course, is anal intercourse, to which unmarried persons under 18 cannot legally consent, (although the Ontario Court of Appeal has struck down the relevant section of the Criminal Code.)

So to clarify, what Svend wanted was for the age of consent for anal intercourse be brought into line with the age of consent for all other sexual activities.In otehr words, a 14 year old girl can legally have sex with a 45 year old man, just so long as it's not anal sex. So is your problem with age or with anal? If you have a problem with the age of consent, fine, but get your facts straight first.

. I also believe that Svend Robinson should have been charged for murder for having assisted in a suicide

For those who don't know the background, Robinson took up the cause of a B.C. woman named Susan Rodriguez, who was afflicted with ALS and petitioned the Supreme Court to allow a doctor to assist her in her suicide. obinson put forward a motion calling for a Commons committee to conduct its own detailed study of the issue, but MPs voted down the request 169-66. Rodriguez killed herself in 1994 with the help of a doctor. robinson was present but no charges were laid, as the Crown concluded there was no substantial likelihood of conviction for any criminal offence.

The Crown obviously felt they had no case. So it's cased closed.

However I do have a problem when communities are forced to have gay pride parades, showcasing naked men, and acts of sado-masichism.

Please give one example-just one, single, solitary example- of a community that was "forced" to hold a Pride event.

. So Black Dog and Big Gunner, you guys should go back to Rabble if you have a problem with free speech. Rabble seems to take away peoples posts in the night, and also seem to quench any opposing debate, which is Stalinist, and is obviously fine with you guys.

I already frequent Rabble, thanks (I'm not too hard to find, I use the same handle there). I've never had a problem with free speech on Rabble, and nor would anyone else who abides by the guidelines and rules of that forum. Also I've never heard of any posts being deleted, except those with highly objectionable content. Seems to me you got a bad case of the sour grapes, pal.

[maplesyrup]

Alright, the left wing nuts are screwing up what I said again, I am against Svends stand on various issues, such as Euthanasia, Abortion, Age of Consent, freedom of religion, and the war on terrorism. I don't believe in Svends belief that it is alright for a 14 year old to recieve anal copulation from a 45 year old sicko. I also believe that Svend Robinson should have been charged for murder for having assisted in a suicide. I have also reiterated before in the forum that I have a relative who is gay, and have no hatred towards him. However I do have a problem when communities are forced to have gay pride parades, showcasing naked men, and acts of sado-masichism. So Black Dog and Big Gunner, you guys should go back to Rabble if you have a problem with free speech. Rabble seems to take away peoples posts in the night, and also seem to quench any opposing debate, which is Stalinist, and is obviously fine with you guys.

Was'nt Svend Robinson the guy that went on the march for those people at Concordia that hated Jewish people, and did'nt those people that Svend protested with spit on jews at concoridia. So in conclusion if you support Svend Robinson you are an anti-semite. Wow its that easy to screw up what people say, now I know how Black Dog and Big Gunner feel.

Alliance Fanatic......I am beginning to wonder if you are that well. Have you ever gone back and read the venom that you spew out on a regular basis. This is disgusting stuff and has no place on a Canadian public political discussion board. Please add me to your hate list that includes BigGunner and Black Dog. :angry:

*PLONK*

[Alliance Fanatic]

Euthanasia is a nazi type policy. Hitler originally brought about mercy deaths in Germany. It all started with Baby Knauer, and Hitler also believed that those who were deformed should be allowed to die also. So Svend's policy is in it self nazi like. Maplesyrup so you obviously believe that it is alright to hate Jew's at Concordia university, and force children as young as 8 about the joys of having anal sex. You must also believe that it is alright for 14 years olds to have sex with 45 year olds as long as it is consensual.

Wow New Democrats sure have the strangest morals.

By the way Maplesyrup I love how you like to think that your better than everybody else, but here we believe in free speech, if you don't like it go back to Cuba or even worse Rabble.

Here is what I hate

- I hate how pedophila is now deemed as artisitic, what is so artistic about a child being molested

- I hate how families are now being forced to believe that sado-masichism is acceptable sexual practice

- I hate how pimps, and drug dealers, all have more rights that victims in the criminal justice system

- I hate seeing children being sexually, physically, and mentally abused.

- I hate seeing criminals who are untreated walking the streets

- I hate how 1 in 3 women will be raped by the time they hit 21

- I hate how girls at 14 are prostituting themselves, and how we as a society do nothing to protect them

I guess that I am right now the only person here that wants to actually help victims of violence.

"In 2001, in ruling on the child pornography law, the Supreme Court of Canada gave permission for adults to make visual recordings of sexual activities with children 14 years and older"

Thats the difference between a conservative and a socialist, conservatives try to help victims, socialists create victims.

http://british-columbia.ca.human-rights.or...g/BoyAbuse.html

http://www.c-a-s-e.net/Age%20of%20Consent.htm

http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/research.html

http://www.realwomenca.com/newsletter/2004.../article_3.html

http://www.thetyee.ca/Views/current/Svend.htm

[maplesyrup]

Greg......how much more of this sick hatred are you going tolerate here. I have had enough of it. :angry:

[maplesyrup]

Euthanasia is a nazi type policy. Hitler originally brought about mercy deaths in Germany. It all started with Baby Knauer, and Hitler also believed that those who were deformed should be allowed to die also. So Svend's policy is in it self nazi like. Maplesyrup so you obviously believe that it is alright to hate Jew's at Concordia university, and force children as young as 8 about the joys of having anal sex. You must also believe that it is alright for 14 years olds to have sex with 45 year olds as long as it is consensual.

Wow New Democrats sure have the strangest morals.

By the way Maplesyrup I love how you like to think that your better than everybody else, but here we believe in free speech, if you don't like it go back to Cuba or even worse Rabble.

Here is what I hate

- I hate how pedophila is now deemed as artisitic, what is so artistic about a child being molested

- I hate how families are now being forced to believe that sado-masichism is acceptable sexual practice

- I hate how pimps, and drug dealers, all have more rights that victims in the criminal justice system

- I hate seeing children being sexually, physically, and mentally abused.

- I hate seeing criminals who are untreated walking the streets

- I hate how 1 in 3 women will be raped by the time they hit 21

- I hate how girls at 14 are prostituting themselves, and how we as a society do nothing to protect them

I guess that I am right now the only person here that wants to actually help victims of violence.

"In 2001, in ruling on the child pornography law, the Supreme Court of Canada gave permission for adults to make visual recordings of sexual activities with children 14 years and older"

Thats the difference between a conservative and a socialist, conservatives try to help victims, socialists create victims.

http://british-columbia.ca.human-rights.or...g/BoyAbuse.html

http://www.c-a-s-e.net/Age%20of%20Consent.htm

http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/research.html

http://www.realwomenca.com/newsletter/2004.../article_3.html

http://www.thetyee.ca/Views/current/Svend.htm

just so that we have a record of this shit.

[BigGunner]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

AF just called Svend a Nazi!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

AF is on the express train to a defamation of charater suit.

[maplesyrup]

Is Bill 250 in effect now? If so, perhaps it could be used here.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Excuse me, I said that Euthanasia is akin to the nazi practice in the 30's which started with Baby Knauer who was allowed to die. The simple fact is that you guys can never bring forward any real debate, only agitate people, and can always say oh I don't like what your saying so I am going to outlaw it.

[BigGunner]

Excuse me, I said that Euthanasia is akin to the nazi practice in the 30's which started with Baby Knauer who was allowed to die. The simple fact is that you guys can never bring forward any real debate, only agitate people, and can always say oh I don't like what your saying so I am going to outlaw it.

Euthanasia is what is done to family pets when they are old and sick.

Doctor assisted suicide is done with the consent of the patient.

Eugenics was a practice the NAZI's used to 'clense' Germany of the 'impure'.

[Stoker]

Now if the following link and quote are true:

http://www.realwomenca.com/newsletter/2004.../article_3.html

Mr. Robinson next created a stir on February 17, 1987, while serving on a House of Commons committee to review the Criminal Code provisions on child abuse. On that date Mr. Robinson:

Moved that the offense of buggery in the Criminal Code be removed as a separate specific offense. This motion was defeated by the Committee.

Moved that the age of consent for buggery or sodomy (set at 21 years) be reduced to age 14, allegedly to conform to the age of consent for other sexual activity. (If accepted, this, of course, would have provided access to 14 year old adolescent boys by homosexual adults.) This motion was also defeated.

Moved that the word "buggery" in the Criminal Code be changed to the words "anal intercourse." This was accepted by the Committee.

Moved that no one under 18 years of age consenting to anal intercourse be guilty of a criminal offense. (This would have had the effect of permitting those under 18 years to freely engage in consensual anal intercourse.) This motion was defeated

What good was supposed to come out of Mr Robinson's motion?

If he was concerned with parity between "straight" people and "gays", why not seek to increase the age for consensual "straight" sex to equal that of consensual anal intercourse?

Wouldn't that have been a better option? IMHO it's a option that may have been supported by "right-wing, homophobic, White Anglo Saxon, western Nazis" like myself

[Black Dog]

If he was concerned with parity between "straight" people and "gays", why not seek to increase the age for consensual "straight" sex to equal that of consensual anal intercourse?

I can't speak for Mr. Robinson, but I expect the age of consent for "straight" sex (not that anal sex is strictly a gay thing) was chosen because of instances where by consenting individuals of or near the same age were being charged for having consesual sexual intercourse. In other words, the low age was designed to ensure 16-year olds wouldn't go to jail for having sex with someone their own age.

Oddly enough, the current law allows 45 year olds to have sex with 14 year olds, just so long as they don't go around the back door.

I can respect the views of those who want the age of consent raised, but regardless of it's limit, people should be treated equally and not singled out for the type of sex they're having.

[Stoker]

Oddly enough, the current law allows 45 year olds to have sex with 14 year olds, just so long as they don't go around the back door.

I can respect the views of those who want the age of consent raised, but regardless of it's limit, people should be treated equally and not singled out for the type of sex they're having.

I don't think a 45 year old should be having sex with either a teenage girl or boy......I don't care if it's "straight sex" or "gay sex"........I'm also sure that most Conservatives agree, and it's not an issue if the adult is gay or straight, but that an adult is having sex with a child.....I think thats why most where up in arms over Mr Robinson's motion, not because he is gay.

At the time when Mr Robinson made his motion, did the federal NDP support him? Also, what is the current NDP stance with the laws that pertain to the age of consent?

Does Mr Robinson speak for the NDP or himself?