Tuition Fees

[willy]

I have seen posts talk about how much university tuition has gone up in this country over the last few years.

Big Gunner

How is a young person or new employee supposed to save some cash for university - especially after the gov't has allowed for 200% + tuition fee increases?

Students that rely on loans have debt between $20 000.00 and $30 000.00 by the end of a four year degree.

I personally graduated 6 years ago and came out of school debt free; in fact I had money in the bank.

I worked hard, sport scholarships, academic scholarships, part time jobs and side businesses. If I would have had a loan it would have been an investment in my future.

Why should people not be responsible for paying for a majority of thier post secondary education?

Most small to midsize cars today will cost $20 -$30 thousand. Is an education not worth the same or more?

[August1991]

Why should people not be responsible for paying for a majority of thier post secondary education?

Most small to midsize cars today will cost $20 -$30 thousand. Is an education not worth the same or more?

You've got it dead on Willy. Good thread, in my view. What's better, a leased car or an education?

The scam is that university/college teachers have a guaranteed clientele and students get a free ride. End result? You can eat all you want at McDo but, well, you have to eat at McDo.

IMV, elementary and secondary education should be government paid. After that, everyone should be on their own.

I suspect Canada would have many more smaller, interesting colleges/universities than the government-financed, Soviet, bureaucratic behemoths it has now. Behemoths? Even the small ones are Soviet.

[CanadaRocks]

You guys should start a fertilizer business because I'm seeing an abundance of it here.

Planning around exceptions is no way to look out for the many.

You want educated Canadians? Then you produce them by designing the system to create them, not by making the system so difficult that only the few survive.

If you want a "ruling class" then by all means, make tuitions super high, ensure that only the elite or exceptions make it through, and that the many fall by the wayside.

The only thing that I find more rediculous? Is that after 14 years of education ( 2 preschool, 8 elementary, and 4 highschool) the only thing our kids are qualified to do, is work in a Mikes Mart at minimum wage, or continue on to college or university.

DUH!! After they have dedicated 14 years of their lives to schooling they should AT LEAST HAVE ONE TRADE THAT WILL SUSTAIN THEM IN OUR WORK WORLD!!

Good grief our kids were better off a hundred years ago when the parents passed their trades on to their children.

At least then the child had a way to make its way in the world.

Now? In our "better world", a world where nearly all non career jobs are minimum wage, our kids may know all about where the various parts of the world are located, they may well speak 2 languages, they may have an appreciation of art, but unless they find a way to get through university or college which THEY must pay for with these minimum wages jobs, they have the life chances of doodly squat.

I don't know what planet you're from, but BEAM ME UP SCOTTY because its sure as heck not the planet earth.

Ensure that all kids have a trade by the time they leave highschool. Lower tuition costs so that more of our kids can achieve their full potential. If an educated culture is going to deploy itself into the global economy, let it be ours.

[willy]

If an educated culture is going to deploy itself into the global economy, let it be ours.

You don't deploy education for results. One needs to take on the world, not be prepared for it. Business growth and opportunity come from ingenuity and being competitive. One must apply ones education not for an ultraistic satisfaction but to identify needs and then fill them for a valued transaction. (we live in a modern capitalist economy)

People don't need an education for this, but for those that need a skill, find a trade, learn computers, study detailed existing technology but when your work becomes obsolete don't look to the empowered economy to pay your way.

Ayn Rand should be a must read for all first year students. She may have missed the need for government in her books, but at least she attached significance to the leaches in the system. Those that bleed the money and productivity out of our economy. The entitled.

[August1991]

Ayn Rand should be a must read for all first year students.

The sad part is that CanadaRocks doesn't know who Ayn Rand is, doesn't know where she was born, doesn't know what she wrote. But I bet CanadaRocks knows about Michael Moore.

Agree or disagree, people should have the chance to form an opinion by seeing the WHOLE picture. Our schools don't do that, and CanadaRocks is evidence. Sad.

[Sully]

Well I just graduated last year from University in BC, I have seen the tuitions go up considerably. It had to be done. Course I did not want to pay more for my schooling but luckily graduating with a commerce degree, helps me understand the reasoning for it.

You have to pay more to keep or attract the best teachers, you have to pay more to lower waiting lists and have new classes scheduled. Who do people think should pay for this stuff, I do not think it should be the public, they already pay enough.

People always say, well it will benefit the economy, true if you were forced to stay in Canada the whole time throughout your career. Why should Canadians pay for a persons degree and have them leave to go outside of Canada for work, sounds like a waste to me.

I mean people have to open their eyes as to why the NDP govt. was able to put a tuition freeze in place for so long. The only reason they could maintain it was through the influx of foreign students to our schools. Lots of students bought into the government working for them, ahhahaha, did anyone notice that BC citizens were not able to get seats in classrooms, wonder why eh? Maybe because a foreign student pays 3 times as much as a domestic student, they get a seat, domestic student does not and hooray cheaper tuition is maintained, too bad I cannot actually get accepted to university.

[RB]

well i am still in school, one of those lifelong learner that support higher education, and if there are some system of interest free loans/bursaries/grants available and i qualify and the incentive to use this outweights all other i will access this system

having said that in 98 i was given a student loan of 24k first year at university - good grief i never wanted loans again - so i had to come up with alternatives, nowadays research funds are easy come what may in the programs

but i do think there should be some loan support system base on financial need for those accessing higher education (HE), but maybe it should not be the only financial alternative to access HE

[willy]

About one-half of college graduates and bachelor graduates (graduates from a university bachelor's program) from the class of 2000 left school owing money for their education, mostly in the form of government student loans. One in five graduates who did owe money was debt free two years after graduation. On average, graduates who still owed money for student loans had paid off about one-quarter of their debt.

On average, bachelor graduates with student debt owed about $20,000 to all sources. College graduates owed almost $13,000. Most education debt was to government student loan programs: 41% of college graduates and 45% of bachelor graduates left school with government student loans.

Stats Can giving us the goods.

[maplesyrup]

we live in a modern capitalist economy

Actually we like in a social democratic society.

Schooling, medical and dental, from the cradle to the grave, needs to be paid for out of general tax revenues, and gratis to the user.

I also like the idea of ensuring everyone has a skill or a trade, the practical aspects could be acquired during some form of military peacekeeping, which all Canadians should participate in. It is too bad that it looks like PM Martin will be re-elected with a majority government, which means: "plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme chose".

[BigGunner]

We live in a mixed economy...neither capitalist, nor socialist.

We have a social safety net that is intended to catch those who fall upon hard times or are incapable of taking care of themselves. Beyond that, we have a regulated free enterprise system that has basic legislation that protects human rights, has environmental standards, and provides a basic education for every child.

Post secondary education is partially subsidised by the state. Conventional wisdom even by mainstream conservatives even support public post secondary education. They understand that whatever tax money it costs to educate a student will be more than paid back in income tax and other fees paid by the student in a successful career.

I support a post secondary education system that is partially funded by the state, with the student taking on some of the burden themselves. Taking one's post secondary education seriously is an admission by the student that they intent on taking on personal responsibility. Paying back a portion of the student loan proves the ability to be held accountable and follow through with financial commitments. What I oppose however is some governments desire to balance their books on the backs of students.

What I would accept is a fixed formula that determines that the federal and provinces are responsible for "X" portion of your post secondary education, while "Y" is your share. Arbitrary cost cutting and tuition fee increases are unfair to everyone.

I would also support a measure that would progressively reward students for graduating their studies by forgiving a portion of their outstanding loan, balanced against their income level. It is simply unfair for a student who had been raised in a life of poverty to be saddled with a loan that is often as large as a mortgage on a house.

[maplesyrup]

Paul Wells has been running some articles about tuition fees on his Mcleans' Blog that is challenging me, and some previous assumptions I have had concerning paying for post-secondary education. Has anyone else seen them? What do you think?

This is the most recent one:

Let me take you higher, ed

And also this one:

Edjimication

And this:

Social policy for the rich

[I miss Reagan]

Lol MS likes the idea of the government taking care of everyone. Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to do anything.

Our generation has this sense of entitlement that they should get everything for free. They seem to think they have a right to everything. Tuition fees are cheap in Canada but there never seems to be an end to the whining from students here. I went to school in the US and worked my butt off to pay twice as much in tuition. (It was worth it for the better education ).

During the last election campaign I attended a debate where the green candidate, a young college girl, went into a rant about the injustice of having to live in a basement while going to school. She went on describing the horror to the applause and cheers of other students in attendence. I noticed a couple of the older folks smiling to each other. I was thinking join the club! We've all friggen been there! I'm sure the old folks were wondering how anyone could be complaining when they had lived in the trenches of war with rats and suffering from trench foot. Having running water was a luxery and here this spoiled tree hugger is complaining about living in a basement.

[maplesyrup]

I saw this bumper sticker on a truck once:

"Hug a logger and you will never go back to trees" or something to that effect!

I think the vehicle was parked outside that restaurant in Squamish that had a "Spotted Owl Sandwich" on its menu.

Where did I ever suggest these benefits are free?

I am not sure if you took the time to read Well's comments about tuition fees - you might end up agreeing with him.

[playfullfellow]

I can't really say that I would mind paying a portion of someones higher education. I do have a problem with paying for someones education to take a course in say something like studying some sort of artsy fartsy course. I also do not agree with career students. Why the heck should I pay for someone to stay in school for the next 15 years just to keep taking a bunch of inane courses with never intending to get a job. I have no problem with people taking courses that will enable them to get a paying job. We definately need more people in the trades around Canada but finding young (or older) people who actually want to break a sweat and get calusses to make a living is getting increasingly harder. But I guess this has a lot to do with parents too, I keep telling my kids to get an education so they won't have to bust their backs like their old man does.

[Slavik44]

Making tuition slightly more managable would be nice, A couple of days ago my aunt was commenting onwhat she paid for tuition and i thought wow thats great but she was also complaining about how high it was. Which woudl certainly indicate that prices have taken a huge leap recently. I agree a solid educaiton is probabley the best investment in a person's Future, a well educated Canada likewise is the best investment in a strong and vibrant future for the whole country. It benifiets everyone, As students will get jobs pay taxes and support government services such as the canadian pension plan, A helping hand to the future of this country will undoubtedly be returned to the older folks of this country, everyone has had it tough at some time but it doesn't neccasarily mean we must continue this circle of cruelty. Anotehr interesting thing to note is that i read some where that 40% of people considered poor do not know that the government has created ways to make their education affordable, so the first step would be to educate people about the options that exist.

The question was asked what is fair, well this is what i think can be considered fair.

Summer: 650 hours of work

school year: 256 hours of work

Hourly pay: $9

Total money: $8,154

I think if you account for expenses such as Taxes, Car insurance, Gas, Parking, clothes, food(?), Rent(?). You would come to the conclusion that alot of that money will already be gone, if we accpet that a student may have to go slightly into debt each year, fair tuition is probabley in the range of $4,000-$5,000, not including books. soem schools meet this some don't but if the government could work with universities to make that a possibility it would take a burden off this countries future.

[takeanumber]

Social mobility.

That's why the government should pick up 75 percent of the cost.

I accuse Conservatives of trying to hold the poor down.

They know full well that somebody from the trailer park can't pay 14 grand/year tuition, even if they have to work full time at some menial job (and remember, they're supposed to be going to school.)

Oh, and I think that somebody who is from a rich family, but not that bright, who gets to go to university because they have the money, whereas somebody who is poor, much brighter than the rich person, but since you have to be absolutely brilliant to get a scholarship, the poor -- yet superior person, doesn't get to go, solely because of their background.

That's anti-social mobility right there. And that's bullshit.

If Conservatives hate social mobility so much, maybe they should hop right back on that garbage barge back to Britain and join Mr. Black and the rest of the Tory thieves in the House of Lords.

Go on, get out of here.

I know my ancestors came here to move up in the world, not be locked in the same tory hell-hole that was (and still is) Britain.

[maplesyrup]

The only thing that I find more rediculous? Is that after 14 years of education ( 2 preschool, 8 elementary, and 4 highschool) the only thing our kids are qualified to do, is work in a Mikes Mart at minimum wage, or continue on to college or university.

DUH!! After they have dedicated 14 years of their lives to schooling they should AT LEAST HAVE ONE TRADE THAT WILL SUSTAIN THEM IN OUR WORK WORLD!!

Good grief our kids were better off a hundred years ago when the parents passed their trades on to their children.

At least then the child had a way to make its way in the world.

CanadaRocks......I agree. Some of the problem with the trades lies in the career guidance offices in the high schools. Many of the people that work in these offices usually have a teaching backgrounds, which means they went to university instead of learning a trade. There is a lot of snobbery towards tradespeople, dirty work, not using your brains, etc., all the typical BS, and they have minimal appreciation of the career advantages of learning a trade. Guidance offices would do students a favour by staffing themselves with trades people as well.

Many high school graduates would be well off going to trade school, at least first, before they go on to university, as they will never complete university.

But why, as CanadaRocks suggests, couldn't students learn one trade or skill by the time they have finished high school?

What are the current statistics? It used to be 13% of high school graduates went on to complete an undergraduate degree.

[idealisttotheend]

I agree wholeheartedly with TN's post.

Social mobility

They know full well that somebody from the trailer park can't pay 14 grand/year tuition, even if they have to work full time at some menial job (and remember, they're supposed to be going to school.)

An education is the key to your earning level as you can work as hard and be as smart as you want and will still have trouble just getting into the 30-40K bracket without an education, never mind above it.

Oh, and I think that somebody who is from a rich family, but not that bright, who gets to go to university because they have the money, whereas somebody who is poor, much brighter than the rich person, but since you have to be absolutely brilliant to get a scholarship, the poor -- yet superior person, doesn't get to go, solely because of their background.

At some point our lives will depend on someone with a higher education. (like a doctor say). We have a choice as a society about whether we want the person whose parents were the richest to be that doctor or the person who is the smartest and most capable . It's clearly a no-brainer.

There was a time when militaries were organized on the basis of the most privileged commanding (the nobles). I think we can say categlorically that when they changed the officer class so that it was based on merit based careerists commanding instead of the 'nobles,' armies all over the world were greatly improved.

playfullfellow:

I can't really say that I would mind paying a portion of someones higher education. I do have a problem with paying for someones education to take a course in say something like studying some sort of artsy fartsy course. I also do not agree with career students. Why the heck should I pay for someone to stay in school for the next 15 years just to keep taking a bunch of inane courses with never intending to get a job.

Playfull comes down the middle as always.

I think they have had the problem in Germany of 'career students.' Goverment assistance should be capped at some point to prevent this (like four years unless in a longer program that you have passed the aptitude test for).

The artsy fartsy courses can produce critical and creative thinkers that are highly valued these days. They shouldn't be considered necessarily useless simply because they are not teaching a 'hard skill.'

[Cartman]

I wholeheartedly agree with you CanadaRocks. It is wasteful that the average person spends so much time in school and has few skills for obtaining rewarding employment. Governments have to wake up on this one.

Too many "average" students are let into university and many of them are from wealthy families. This is a problem. Grade inflation is also a problem.

Most importantly, there exists a mentality today that if you can get into school and pay for university, you should automatically pass and get a degree. I warn students that simple registration in my classes does not guarantee passing grades for everyone. I use a curve and it works well.

I find it ironic that some people on this forum seem to believe that workers should not demand high wages, but at the same time, also argue that people should pay for their own education.

[maplesyrup]

Tale of the tape

Standard issues

Wells continues the debate with some input about the German situation as well.

I am curious what folks here think about his comparisons in his "Tale of the tape".

[takeanumber]

Look people:

It supposed to be based on Merit.

That's the great thing about Canada.

If a Doctor has a son, and that son screws around in school, and drinks, and doesn't do their schoolwork, the Doctor shouldn't be able to get his son through university and then into Med School solely because the pool of eligible people has been reduced through the cost.

High tuition is a price floor that reduces the supply of bright, brilliant people into the schools.

Should somebody, a bright kid, who has busted his ass all of his live to get out of the trailer park, have to pay a share of their education?

YES. Absolutely. They should have to pay around 25 percent.

BUT: Should a mediocre person from the Hamptons be allowed to buy their way into a university, taking a seat away from a more worthy person?

Hell NO.

And this is how the Tories are waging class warfare.

Just because you became a Doctor doesn't entitle your Son or Daughter to get a free pass. If your son or daughter isn't so bright, or, is better with their hands at doing things, they should go to tech school. They should go take journalism or something else that doesn't require much intelligence.

It really pisses me off when a group of people struggles to make it to the top, and then tries to destroy the ladder that allowed them to get so high, in an effort to keep everybody else down.

Yes, the world needs ditch diggers. But those who are best suited for those jobs, be them generationally poor or generationally rich, should fill those jobs if that's what they merit.

You can't get any more liberal than that.

If you disagree with this point of view, go back to Britain. Seriously. This is the principle that Canada was founded upon; and we fought hard in 1837 to keep it.

You might be happier in the United States too. They don't seem to like social mobility down there either.

[maplesyrup]

Tn.......I agree that students should pay something.

The one place I have major concerns with user fees is with health care as I would not want someone to not receive medical attention because they didn't have the five bucks.

Basically though I think it is a good idea to make people pay something for using a service primarily to cut down on waste.

[takeanumber]

Absolutely. Pay something.

But when policy is dressed in the guise of waste reduction, but the real intent is to restrict competition for the elite, then there's a problem.

That's the case in Canada right now with health care. The Elite, Paul Martin inclusive, don't see why, since they have the money, why can't they pay to get way, way superior health care than everybody else.

They're blinded by their self-interest and total disregard for the majority of Canadian society.

A healthy public makes businesses money. It's profitable for them. So why not pay their fair share through their taxes?

Why not use the same system as the rest of us.

And if healtcare and education are flawed, why then don't the elite work to improve the system FOR THE WHOLE LOT OF US, instead of saying, "Well, poor people and the middle classes deserve what they get."

They're just trying to segregate themselves from the rest of Canadian society, and then bar the door to social mobility.

It's illiberal what they're trying to do.

Thank god for elections.

[Cartman]

It really pisses me off when a group of people struggles to make it to the top, and then tries to destroy the ladder that allowed them to get so high, in an effort to keep everybody else down.

I would levy that criticism, unfortunately, at many professors. I hate to admit it though.

In terms of user fees, the only way I would consider them is if they were done on a sliding scale. That is, the "Bill Gates" of the world should not pay what the poor pay. A trivial % of your monthly or annual income. Somehow, I think that if this were done, the Conservatives would be whining about user fees because everyone including the wealthy would be equally affected.

I do not accept the notion that greater equality = poverty for all.

[August1991]

Social mobility.

That's why the government should pick up 75 percent of the cost.

I accuse Conservatives of trying to hold the poor down.

TalkNumb, what percentage of the UK House of Commons is from Oxbridge? What percentage of the French National Assembly is énarque? What percentage of the US Congress is from Harvard/Yale? (Extra points: What percentage are preppies - Groton etc?)

Government pick up 75% of the cost? Social mobility? Gimme a break! You been to England? France? India? What's tuition to ÉNAP? How do you get in? What's Oxford/Cambridge financing?

The US system is porous. Where did Richard Nixon do his BA? Law degree? Where did Bill Clinton do his law degree? How?

Conclusion?

State-financed university education is a recipe for elitism. The institutions become bureaucratic producers of rare certificates for children of connected people. Poor people pay taxes for this theft.

When universities must seek private financing, they are small. They manage to accept poor, smart kids so rich kids get a true education. The poor smart kids who succeed give money for carefully-worded scholarships for other poor smart kids.