Oleg Bach Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I don't know if you failed to notice, but it isn't the 1930s and 40s anymore. Things are quite different. That said, Canadian soldiers are not spectators in this war, we are active participants. Being an active participant doesn't meant that we've thrown the law aside (and we haven't). We are doing good work in Afghanistan. That's why we should be staying to continue that work...in the manner that we are currently doing it. The direction of the country is up to the Crown on behalf of the people, and does not come as a result of your individual wants. We (the citizens of Canada) will decide what is done here (within the framework of the law and the Constitution), whether or not you or I agree with it. I feel like an Israeli in these regards - I believe that the life of one Canadian soldier is worth the lives of a thousand Afghanis....and worth the education of a million young females that "want to go to school" - If one of ours dies we should remove a thousand of theirs - we approve of this being done in Israel - but some how we do not hold our own Christian brothers in the same esteem as we hold strangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I feel like an Israeli in these regards - I believe that the life of one Canadian soldier is worth the lives of a thousand Afghanis....and worth the education of a million young females that "want to go to school" - If one of ours dies we should remove a thousand of theirs - we approve of this being done in Israel - but some how we do not hold our own Christian brothers in the same esteem as we hold strangers. That's moronic. First of all, the Afghanis aren't Christians, so if you're mumbling on about supporting our "Christian brothers", then you're talking about the wrong military campaign. Christianity has nothing to do with this. No Christian lives are being saved, or at least no more than an exceedingly small minority. And intentionally killing a thousand Afghanis for every Canadian serves no particular objective, other than, of course, to swell the ranks of the Taliban, as the people seek out the one group that will assure we're tossed out of the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 That's moronic. First of all, the Afghanis aren't Christians, so if you're mumbling on about supporting our "Christian brothers", then you're talking about the wrong military campaign. Christianity has nothing to do with this. No Christian lives are being saved, or at least no more than an exceedingly small minority. And intentionally killing a thousand Afghanis for every Canadian serves no particular objective, other than, of course, to swell the ranks of the Taliban, as the people seek out the one group that will assure we're tossed out of the country. So easily provoked - no wonder the Taliban bitch slap the troops at will. I never called Afhanis Christians. I am talking about saving the lives of our OWN - if you look at the old spread of photos...that use to be on the front page of our tabloids...you will notice one thing 99% - of our fallen soldiers are white - from Christian stock - and they are not just nominal Christians as some might insist - whether they are practicing or not is not at issue - THEY CARRY THE VALUES OF THEIR GRAND PARENTS - WHO WERE CHRISTIANS - I do not see one Canadian Islamic casualty ..Not one single Jewish dead Canadian soldier - not one Hindi ---- just our old Christian stock waging an old time crusade - these men are very valuable - and my point was. We should hold them in the same esteem and value that the Israelis hold their soldiers - if one Israeli is killed - they kill ten Palistinians or Hamas - if they can lay their hands on them Point also - we support these actions by Israel but we do not support the same hard line policy for our own - who are CHRISTIANS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Sorry buddy - family comes first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 If we stoop to their level we can never again take the moral high ground on anything...ever. and if we can never again take the moral high ground on anything, improving human rights will never be used as an excuse to pursue wars unless our politicians wear balaclavas to hide their ruddy faces like AQs when they lecture their counterparts of poor developing countries..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 and if we can never again take the moral high ground on anything, improving human rights will never be used as an excuse to pursue wars unless our politicians wear balaclavas to hide their ruddy faces like AQs when they lecture their counterparts of poor developing countries..... Anyone who says that you can take the high moral ground in a contest of violence - is being unreal - there is no moral ground in war - just real ground and holding it. It's like walking into a bar - full of thugs - If you need a weapon then you are not fit to lecture - If - you can not win them over with your mind - then you are no better than the thugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusThermopyle Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 just a big boom and a dead human akin to a native Ontarian racoon - It sure must be embarassing to call road kill heros...wonder if the living raccons along the Highway of Heros feel left out of the hero department? That has to be one of the most ignorant things I've heard in a very long time. You should be ashamed, I dare you to step onto any base and repeat it to a few of the "Racoons". Didn't think you would. I guess it's better to be a living Racoon than a worthless piece of *^%$ as some here obviously are. Sorry everyone, that comment truly angered me, especially when one considers the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 That has to be one of the most ignorant things I've heard in a very long time. You should be ashamed, I dare you to step onto any base and repeat it to a few of the "Racoons". Didn't think you would.I guess it's better to be a living Racoon than a worthless piece of *^%$ as some here obviously are. Sorry everyone, that comment truly angered me, especially when one considers the source. My point referes to the stuified glee of civilians who stand on bridges saluting corpses - let me make this clear - My father served in the Kremlin as an honour guard to the bastard Stalin - He also served as a double agent in occupied Paris - he was riddled with bullet marks - as was my mother - they had seen REAL war and the collapse of civilization... I support our military fully - BUT the poitical mentality is immature - as is the public perception - and the FACT that we loose so many good people to road side bombs - that the Taliban take them out like shooting fish in a barrel - There are no heroic fire fights to speak of - mostly ambushes - when is our government going to change the tactics used in this theatre of operation? I HATE the fact that weasils are letting our best die needlessly --------------------do you get my point now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 I don't know if you failed to notice, but it isn't the 1930s and 40s anymore. Things are quite different. That said, Canadian soldiers are not spectators in this war, we are active participants. Being an active participant doesn't meant that we've thrown the law aside (and we haven't). We are doing good work in Afghanistan. That's why we should be staying to continue that work...in the manner that we are currently doing it. The direction of the country is up to the Crown on behalf of the people, and does not come as a result of your individual wants. We (the citizens of Canada) will decide what is done here (within the framework of the law and the Constitution), whether or not you or I agree with it. If I was a veteran, I would find this very insulting. We were not spectators in those years we were active participants. We fought that war and subsequent wars by the Geneva convention, we have never, never advocated or conducted military matters in this country in contravention of the Geneva convention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) If I was a veteran, I would find this very insulting. We were not spectators in those years we were active participants. I never said that we were spectators. Even if we were following the convention then, things were still very different. I was not in any way attempting to insult veterans. You're reading too far into what I wrote I think. Canada has always done its best to follow the rules, and I know that. That's why I think it's so important that we keep doing so. Edited June 11, 2009 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 I never said that we were spectators. Even if we were following the convention then, things were still very different. I was not in any way attempting to insult veterans. You're reading too far into what I wrote I think. Canada has always done its best to follow the rules, and I know that. That's why I think it's so important that we keep doing so. So why are you so vocal about something we are already doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 So why are you so vocal about something we are already doing? I was vocal in response to what someone else said. I like what we're doing. We do a good job and we hold ourselves accountable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) Anyone who says that you can take the high moral ground in a contest of violence - is being unreal - there is no moral ground in war - just real ground and holding it. It's like walking into a bar - full of thugs - If you need a weapon then you are not fit to lecture - If - you can not win them over with your mind - then you are no better than the thugs. Taking moral high ground is not just some bookish "liberal" girls/boys/professors' theory or slogan, it's also an effective weapon in wars. The Iraq War is an instance. Why could only 200,000 American troops easily defeat Sadaam's 500,000 army with minor cost just in several weeks? Some may say, "it's just because American militery technology exceeding Iraqi Army." I partly agree with this, just partly, becasue there is another part of the cause. The easy victory of American is also because most Iraqi army soldiers and officers believe that Americans will treat them fairly and humanely, and the downfall of Sadaam would end their and their country's pain like "VOA-kind" propagandized. Though the war itself is illegal according to international law, but at this point, American still take the moral high ground from their prevenient records. Just imagine, if VOA told Iraqis that American would torture them, humiliate them, rape them, shoot them...., that means American didn't take the advantage of its moral high ground, could American achieve the victory such easily? I think they could not. Unfortunately, Rumsfeld-kinds totally underestimated the importance of taking the moral high ground and took American off the ground too quickly. Now since most Iraqis (and also most people in the world, include most Canadians, I bet) no longer trust that American would treat them fairly and equally but just think them some cheeky plunderers and conquerors, the war becomes likely "unwinable". Edited June 11, 2009 by xul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canfan Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 This thread started out with a criticism that we investigated abuse allegations against our military. Wanting our military to treat prisoners according to our own laws doesn't mean demanding 0% civilian casualties in war or being cowards who couldn't possibly be related to the Canadians who fought in ww2. Investigations like this can only help the fight in Afghanistan by showing that we're committed to human rights and following laws not just talking about human rights and then doing whatever we want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 This thread started out with a criticism that we investigated abuse allegations against our military. It was a criticism, a huge criticism....I'd like to start out that as Smallc has pionted out we the soldiers of this nation are Human, and we do make mistakes, and it is the responsability of the people to ensure these mistakes are investagated, and brought to justice, .... That being said the time period in question is refing to OP Mudusa, one of the largest Canadian ground operations in the entire Afghan mission...one that produced our greatest losses, not only from the enemy but from freindly fire as well...And from a Canadian soldiers piont of view it was our finest and darkest hour...We had taken the fight to the enemy, and mauled him badly....we also suffered some huge set backs as well such as a US A-10 straffing one of our companies postions, and in seconds making 150 men combat ineffective, taking them out of the fight for the most part....Not only did we have cope with close combat with the enemy, but also the unknown status of so many of our close comrads and freinds that where in that straffed company.... During that battle it is thought we honoured our Nations flag, we honoured our regt's name, and we honoured the RCR soldiers that served before us on previous battlefields across the globe...and we did so despite our losses....Op Mudusa was a badge of honour for us that where there... That was until we found out that a Canadian law professor from ottawa began making unfounded accusations of prisoner abuse....Carried out by those very soldiers that took part in OP Mudusa....placing a black mark on our nations flag, our Regts name, and the names of every soldier that took part....for us it was a slap in the face.... This accusation was made not from eye witness reports but intially from paper Miltary Police reports describing bruising of prisoners in certian areas around the arms and legs.... We've all seen how police take down and restrain bad guys on TV, it's not pretty....and for the most part our take downs belong in some football greatest hits vidio....police take downs on steriods...but these are not your average Bad guys and it's not made for TV...these guys are religious fanitics who will fight you until they have nothing left... a small minor example a buddy of mine required 24 stitches after one insurgent left 3 of his teeth burried in his forearm, after he was biten....like i said nice guys....and yes the bad guy did get a few bruises that day...but once he open his mouth and released my buddies arm the bruising stopped... With no real proof this accusation took on a life of it's own....people in Canada jumped on the band wagon....they did not care about anything else....they had the rope out and where shouting for a linching.....and soon, our good names were mud....and the poor bad guys where the victims....Damn army guys went to far this time....brutes.... What i find ironic is this for the most part Canadians like thier soldiers, respect them and what they do....they trust us that we will lay our very lives down if need be to defend our nation or foriegn policy...they trust we will do that. because we are professional Canadian soldiers, some of the worlds best ...but just in the back of some of thier minds they are coiled to spring at the first sign of a wrong doing....never assuming we are smart enough to stay away from being unprofessional....but rather guilty bastards....before any evidence is heard.... A board of inquiry report into allegations that troops mistreat and beat prisoners taken during heavy fighting in April 2006 found, instead, they were treated `professionally and humanely.'The investigation was opened in February 2007 after Amir Attaran, a University of Ottawa law professor and human rights advocate, uncovered through military police records what he called a suspicious and unexplained pattern of injuries among Afghan prisoners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 An allegation was made and the Military took it seriously. I have absolutely no problem with that. Its actually a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) More to this than meets the eye Who was that professor and what were his poltical afilliations? Does he have "outside interests" and who pays for his continual access to information requests that buried the military department that responds? How many other accusations has this person launched? Yes indeed - there is a lot more to this than the public knows. Borg Edited June 11, 2009 by Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 More to this than meets the eyeWho was that professor and what were his poltical afilliations? Does he have "outside interests" and who pays for his continual access to information requests that buried the military department that responds? How many other accusations has this person launched? Yes indeed - there is a lot more to this than the public knows. Borg Its right there in the CTV link Army Guy posted. Some ottawa prof with - could it be? - an arguably Arabic surname! Possibly (gasp!) a Muslim! a terrorist no doubt, or someone who secretly supports terrorism (as Mark Steyn says Muslims, if not actual terrorists secretly support terrorism) So effin' what? An allegation was made and the Military get to look at the allegation and decide wether the allegation has some sort of merit that deserves further investigation. Y'see they can toss alegations whenever they feel like it. In this case, they didn't and investigated. Is that not the way things should work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 More to this than meets the eyeWho was that professor and what were his poltical afilliations? A lot of the funding university professors received over the years for various projects, i.e. writing books, research, conferences, etc. is federal money. Evidently, for the most part, university professors are not know to be right wing. During the 13 years the Liberals were in power, many of these professors received large amounts of money from the government for their pet projects. When the Conservatives were elected, a lot of this funding dried up. That makes for a very unhappy group of grant recipients. Some of them are well positioned to throw darts at the Conservative government and do so with glee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 So effin' what? An allegation was made and the Military get to look at the allegation and decide wether the allegation has some sort of merit that deserves further investigation. Y'see they can toss alegations whenever they feel like it.In this case, they didn't and investigated. Is that not the way things should work? Yes, it can make a difference. There's this little ol' thing called morale, and having these allegations bandied about is bad for morale. As harsh as it sounds, if the root of it was some bruising, then, no, there was no justification for an investigation which called into question the honor and ethics of our soldiers. Like I said, do we want to win this war, or just turn it into another Pearsonian photo op? I want the soldiers to go in there, kill, maim and frighten as many Taliban as they can, and eventually bring some resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canfan Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 It was a criticism, a huge criticism....I'd like to start out that as Smallc has pionted out we the soldiers of this nation are Human, and we do make mistakes, and it is the responsability of the people to ensure these mistakes are investagated, and brought to justice, .... With no real proof this accusation took on a life of it's own....people in Canada jumped on the band wagon....they did not care about anything else....they had the rope out and where shouting for a linching.....and soon, our good names were mud....and the poor bad guys where the victims....Damn army guys went to far this time....brutes....What i find ironic is this for the most part Canadians like thier soldiers, respect them and what they do....they trust us that we will lay our very lives down if need be to defend our nation or foriegn policy...they trust we will do that. because we are professional Canadian soldiers, some of the worlds best ...but just in the back of some of thier minds they are coiled to spring at the first sign of a wrong doing....never assuming we are smart enough to stay away from being unprofessional....but rather guilty bastards....before any evidence is heard.... I can see your frustration in your post but please remember that it's not all the people in Canada shouting for a lynching. There're always a few who'll act like that no matter what but for the most part Canadians appreciate the job our armed forces do. Most Canadians were proud of how the forces acted in the operation you talk about and mourned those who were victims of the friendly fire accident. Despite what some anti-war people say don't think that most Canadians want to string up their soldiers. But we do like to see allegations of improper conduct investigated. Some people will assume guilt but that is sadly no different than any other allegation made in this country today whether it be accused criminals accused politicians accused business leaders or accused soldiers. Please don't think of the investigation as a black mark I see it as the exact opposite. Our forces are good enough to do their jobs well and handle criticism in an appropriate way. And as I suspected our soldiers were cleared of wrongdoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canfan Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 More to this than meets the eyeWho was that professor and what were his poltical afilliations? Does he have "outside interests" and who pays for his continual access to information requests that buried the military department that responds? How many other accusations has this person launched? Yes indeed - there is a lot more to this than the public knows. Borg Was the boogeyman behind this? Maybe it was evil Elvis back from the dead. Let's give the conspiracy theory a rest. This person saw a record of evidence that might've suggested problems and reported it. Someone in the military obviously thought they were serious enough to warrant an investigation. And that investigation cleared our forces of any wrongdoing. That's the way it's supposed to work in a free and democratic country. If you're going to put on the tinfoil hat then you'll also want to make up crazy questions about what the military might be hiding and who really ran the investigation and what're their political interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canfan Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Yes, it can make a difference. There's this little ol' thing called morale, and having these allegations bandied about is bad for morale. As harsh as it sounds, if the root of it was some bruising, then, no, there was no justification for an investigation which called into question the honor and ethics of our soldiers. Like I said, do we want to win this war, or just turn it into another Pearsonian photo op? I want the soldiers to go in there, kill, maim and frighten as many Taliban as they can, and eventually bring some resolution. For someone who's so concerned about winning you've got a strange way of going about it. If our forces go about beating on the people of Afghanistan it'll make success there much harder than if we treat them with respect. This investigation shows the people that we're there to help them not to flex some military muscle. The Taliban would have a much easier time recruiting if the people saw us as invaders instead of protectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusThermopyle Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 I want the soldiers to go in there, kill, maim and frighten as many Taliban as they can, and eventually bring some resolution. Exactly. Yes, we must abide by the law as it can be practically applied in these circumstances, but some bruising is very far from shattering it into a thousand pieces. Does any one honestly believe that when captured these guys just say "oh, you won that round, well done, well off we go now". No, they resist and fight, as AG said, its not a gentle or kind process at all, not one grounded in a spirit of cooperation, quite the opposite in fact.When I was still in if some combatant was resisting and threatening my buddies life I would take him down as quickly and efficiently as possible, if that meant a boot toe to the temple then thats what he got. Notice I didn't mention safely? Thats because conflict is not safe and during conflict the last thing you worry about is the enemies safety, in fact the goal is to make your enemies life as unsafe as possible. So these guys are captured and have some bruises to show for the experience, thats pretty much to be expected. The simple fact is that as a member I quite often sported bruises, whether from conflict, training or just physical exertion and fun the bruises were present on a pretty regular basis. So it appears this Prof was just digging in the dirt, wasting time and money to further a personal agenda. It can't be denied that many such fools exist in society and we, as a just society give them ample opportunity to show the rest of us just how big a fool they really are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canfan Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 So these guys are captured and have some bruises to show for the experience, thats pretty much to be expected. I'm sure bruising can be expected. From your post can we all assume that you've actually seen the evidence on physical injuries that led to this investigation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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