WIP Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 On the foreign policy front, the number one reason for maintaining the status quo in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, is that "cutting and running" is giving in to terrorism! Well, now the U.S. has provided us with an example of successful use of terrorist tactics right at home, in Kansas. The family of slain abortion doctor George Tiller has announced today that they are closing his Kansas City clinic permanently. http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_ne...ry/1241739.html The so-called "Pro Life" movement has now put the lives of women with abnormal pregnancies, or girls as young as nine years old (and would not have survived delivery) in grave danger. http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/featur...tion/index.html Now that this example of rightwing terrorism that capped decades of violence, vandalism, death threats, and harassment of women seeking the clinic's services has been rewarded, it's time for sane, rational thinking people to push back at the religious right wing extremists who use the abortion issue to serve their larger goals of re-establishing patriarchal society and ramping up birth rates. The lie that abortions are "murdering babies" should have been more vigorously challenged by supporters of abortion rights, instead of just schlepping the subject off as a "woman's right to choose." The simple fact is that human tissue is not enough to gain legal rights of personhood -- especially rights that supercede the woman is supporting this life. Simple fact is that if it is not defined as a person, it cannot be murdered! So, allowing rightwing nutcases like Bill O'Reilley to repeatedly bait George Tiller with the slogan "Tiller, the baby killer" should have been kicked down right from the start. The right wing, which claims to represent freedom and individual rights, wants to redefine personhood as beginning at some magical, nonexistent state they call "conception;" what this entails is that not only could a woman not have an abortion at any stage of pregnancy, but she would also not be allowed any chemical or mechanical methods of contraception, because of their abortifacient potential. Fetal rights also means that a woman who engages in anything deemed to be risky behaviour during pregnancy, which could include smoking, drinking alcohol, or taking drugs, or less easily defined risks such as exercise, or working during later stages of pregnancy. One state, South Carolina, by judicial fiat has declared that viable fetuses are legal persons and that pregnant women who use illegal drugs or engage in any other behavior that jeopardizes the fetus can be prosecuted as a child abusers or murders. Indeed, the arrest of pregnant women is not limited to those using illegal drugs. In Utah, a woman was charged with murder based on the claim that she caused a stillbirth by refusing to have a c-section earlier in her pregnancy. These arrests are taking place in spite of the lack of authorizing legislation and in spite of overwhelming opposition from medical, public health and child welfare organizations. http://www.advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/i...pregnant_women/ Welcome to the brave new world of "sanctity of life!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 It's all part of a broader right wing movement of creeping fascism: « Domestic terrorist kills Wichita gynecologist | "The most dangerous domestic terrorism threat" Department of Homeland Security report on Rightwing Extremism, issued April 7, 2009: § Revisiting the 1990s: Paralleling the current national climate, rightwing extremists during the 1990s exploited a variety of social issues and political themes to increase group visibility and recruit new members. Prominent among these themes were the militia movement’s opposition to gun control efforts, criticism of free trade agreements (particularly those with Mexico), and highlighting perceived government infringement on civil liberties as well as white supremacists’ longstanding exploitation of social issues such as abortion, inter-racial crimes, and same-sex marriage. During the 1990s, these issues contributed to the growth in the number of domestic rightwing terrorist and extremist groups and an increase in violent acts targeting government facilities, law enforcement officers, banks, and infrastructure sectors. http://scienceblogs.com/tfk/2009/05/the_mo...domestic_te.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 ....Well, now the U.S. has provided us with an example of successful use of terrorist tactics right at home, in Kansas. The family of slain abortion doctor George Tiller has announced today that they are closing his Kansas City clinic permanently.... Actually, the USA learned from Quebec, Canada. Seems they refused to do these third tri abortions and send moms to be to America! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Quebec refuses to do medically necessary third trimester abortions? I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Actually, the USA learned from Quebec, Canada. Seems they refused to do these third tri abortions and send moms to be to America! The campaign of harassment is applied at all stages of abortion, and it's one of the reasons why women in many regions of the U.S. have great difficulties getting pregnancy terminated -- we've been over this before. The FLQ in Quebec was small potatoes compared to what your rightwing extremist friends are brewing up -- just take a look at the Homeland Security report; the greatest terrorist threat is coming from within, not from the Arab World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Quebec refuses to do medically necessary third trimester abortions? I doubt it. At the time we last visited this topic, the wikipedia article on abortion in Canada, stated that Quebec was seeking a doctor to perform third trimester abortions. A major part of the problem in getting doctors and medical staff to perform abortions at any stage, let alone third trimester, where they will face a constant barrage of death threats, is that steady multi-level campaign of harassment and intimidation. Not many medical students want to go in the business of becoming martyrs.....so, once again, terrorism works where legal and lawful tactics do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 At the time we last visited this topic, the wikipedia article on abortion in Canada, stated that Quebec was seeking a doctor to perform third trimester abortions. A major part of the problem in getting doctors and medical staff to perform abortions at any stage, let alone third trimester, where they will face a constant barrage of death threats, is that steady multi-level campaign of harassment and intimidation. Not many medical students want to go in the business of becoming martyrs.....so, once again, terrorism works where legal and lawful tactics do not. Ahhh, I see....so Quebec is paying to send the people out then I would assume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) Although I am not an advocate of abortion and it is not for any religious reasons as I am not part of the religious right . But as a man I don`t understand women even though I have been married for 35 years. I don`t know any honest man that can say he does. So I hesitate in telling women what to to do. How ever I do think that partial birth abortion or late term should be subject to great scrutiny . I just watched a miracle of science the other day. My daughter who is six months pregnant went to get an ultra sound that was put on disc and we watched my grandson sucking his thumb and moving about and in my uneducated opinion this was a child I was watching. Everything is formed. This gives me great pause in condoning late term and PBA.The murder by the deranged person who killed the abortion doctor can never be in any way be an excuse , celebration or condoned. Somewhere a balance must be met. I would never want some child who was raped or the victim of incest to have,or forced to carry to term. But surely there must be some rules? Edited June 9, 2009 by Muddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 The doctor didn't just casually perform abortions, so I don't have a problem with it. I, personally, am not a fan of abortion, but I don't consider the unborn to be alive, and I don't consider it to be my choice. It's a difficult subject for most people I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 The doctor didn't just casually perform abortions, so I don't have a problem with it. I, personally, am not a fan of abortion, but I don't consider the unborn to be alive, and I don't consider it to be my choice. It's a difficult subject for most people I think. I am with you up to a point. It is this late term and PBA that gets me squeamish. If you saw the film from the ultra sound that I saw of my Grandson you might be quite alarmed and more questioning about if this is a human being or not. I think there has to be some rules. Abortion up to the point of delivery is just not acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Actually, the USA learned from Quebec, Canada. Seems they refused to do these third tri abortions and send moms to be to America! What states provide 3rd trimester abortions without question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 What states provide 3rd trimester abortions without question? I think Tiller was the only one. So probably just Kansas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I think Tiller was the only one. So probably just Kansas. Without question? I mean. A lady shows up, obviously late in pregnancy, and wants a 3rd trimester abortion, and not one question would be asked/raised? Why did tiller consult with so many lawyers if that was the case? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,880,00.html Of the 1.6 million abortions performed in the U.S. each year, 91 percent are performed during the first trimester (12 or fewer weeks' gestation); 9 percent are performed in the second trimester (24 or fewer weeks' gestation); and only about 100 are performed in the third trimester (more than 24 weeks' gestation), approximately .01 percent of all abortions performed. I am quite confident that Canadian women are going in droves to the US to get 3rd trimester abortions. Bush_Cheney2004 should change his nick to Blame_Canada2004, at least I can still call him BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I think Tiller was the only one. I've provided you with proof that what you are saying isn't true. You ignored it of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I am quite confident that Canadian women are going in droves to the US to get 3rd trimester abortions. Bush_Cheney2004 should change his nick to Blame_Canada2004, at least I can still call him BC. I live for these moments when I can turn your own rhetoric against you. Quebec, Canada has a more restrictive reality when it comes to third tri abortions, so much so, that patients are sent to the wicked US of A for procedures. If blowing your own bullshit back in your face is "blaming Canada", then you can expect more of the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Without question? I mean. A lady shows up, obviously late in pregnancy, and wants a 3rd trimester abortion, and not one question would be asked/raised? Why did tiller consult with so many lawyers if that was the case? To cover his ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) I think Tiller was the only one. So probably just Kansas. Third tri abortions were available in many US states besides Kansas, subject to second physician review and attendance in case the fetus is "born" alive. Edited June 9, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Ahhh, I see....so Quebec is paying to send the people out then I would assume? Correct...to the USA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I've provided you with proof that what you are saying isn't true. You ignored it of course. Dr. McHugh was allowed to examine Dr. Tiller's records by the Kansas Attorney General. PAUL MCHUGH, M.D., PSYCHIATRIST (The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine): I didn't think that those records supported the idea that these women were likely to suffer a substantial and irreversible impairment, which was required by law here in Kansas for their abortion since they were late-term abortions. They highlighted certain kinds of things, which out of context were hard, of course, to appreciate, but were sometimes of a most trivial sort from saying that, “I won't be able to go to concerts,” or “I won't be able to take part in sports,” to more serious ones such as, “I don't want to give my child up for adoption.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Uh huh...and of course you'd believe that rather than the innocent verdict and the reality that two other doctors with no financial connection signed off on every procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Dr. McHugh was allowed to examine Dr. Tiller's records by the Kansas Attorney General.PAUL MCHUGH, M.D., PSYCHIATRIST (The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine): And in the interest of full disclosure, Paul McHugh is also an extreme Catholic ideologue who has in the past, served as the Vatican's adviser on sexual matters. That said, his statement: "I didn't think that those records supported the idea that these women were likely to suffer a substantial and irreversible impairment," has any legitimacy when you consider that some of the third trimester abortions performed by Dr. Tiller, were on girls as young as nine years old. Think about that for a moment and recall how just a little while back, the Catholic Church in Brazil tried to force a nine year old girl down there to deliver twins....which would have led to her death and made her a martyr for the pro life cause. The Church excommunicated her mother and the doctors who saved the girl's life. Other cases where a pregnancy goes bad and threatens the life of the mother, or the fetus has developed severe abnormalities, are similarly ignored by the anti-abortion extremists who claim to protect the sanctity of life. They highlighted certain kinds of things, which out of context were hard, of course, to appreciate, but were sometimes of a most trivial sort from saying that, “I won't be able to go to concerts,” or “I won't be able to take part in sports,” to more serious ones such as, “I don't want to give my child up for adoption.”[/i] Sure they did! We've already established the fact that third trimester abortions are difficult operations that cannot be performed in most abortion clinics. The women who seek this procedure are doing so for very serious reasons. Besides severe health concerns for either the mother or the fetus, there were many cases of young girls who were victims of incest, or were trying to hide the fact that they were sexually active from their parents -- and tried to hide their pregnancies until it became obvious to others. There are many serious reasons why the option of a late term abortion must not be closed off by some arbitrary laws that give rights to a fetus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Scott Roeder, charged with abortion doctor George Tiller's murder, says more violence is coming "I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal," Scott Roeder said in one of two phone calls to the Associated Press from prison. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/06 So, when is Dick Cheney going to send in his goons to waterboard this guy? Or use some of those other methods of "enhanced interrogation" that he claims are so effective! Whether this guy legitimately knows of other pro life terrorist sleeper cells, or is just bluffing, we do know that he is closely tied with Operation Rescue and the Army of God right wing extremist groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 No one with any common sense can condone murder. Or as in this case some sort of anti-state execution of what is percieved to be a monster in the eyes of some. The clitch here is that this deceased doctor was in charge of aborting - and you really can not call his proceedure abortion - seeing that the "fetus" in these cases is fully developed - It's akin to some jerk marching in to a maternity ward and makes his rounds - stomping to death new borns...to call the shooter a hero is wrong - to call the doctor an abortion "provider" is also wrong - I guess this is the primary lesson of two wrongs do not make a right - still - and I coldly say - it's good to get rid of all parties involved in this death cult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 To cover his ass. So we have come to the conclusion that no legit doctor will perform a third trimester abortion without considerable consultation from lawyers and other doctors. BC I live for these moments when I can turn your own rhetoric against you. Quebec, Canada has a more restrictive reality when it comes to third trimester abortions, so much so, that patients are sent to the wicked US of A for procedures. Actually, sure I can let Canada take the blame for Quebec's strict abortion laws in respect to 3rd trimester abortions. Forcing these people to go to the US. Not to mention equating a province that wants to separate from the rest of Canada AS Canada is quite hilarious. If you want Quebec, you can have them. Canada won't be sad to see it go. If blowing your own bullshit back in your face is "blaming Canada", then you can expect more of the same. Hey, you are the one always starting the blame game. not my problem you have a problem with Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) If you want Quebec, you can have them. Canada won't be sad to see it go. Speak for yourself on that one. Edited June 10, 2009 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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