Liberals are worse than the Conservatives

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Over in the Federal thread a lot of 'lefties' are taking shots at the Conservative's numbers... citing the massive job losses and massive deficit.

I wonder though if it wouldn't be much worse if the Liberals were in charge?

Just take a look at Ontario, for example, under Liberal leadership:

Ontario Job Losses Worst in Canada:

Ontario lost 60,000 more jobs in May, almost all in manufacturing and full-time, taking the province's unemployment rate to 9.4 per cent, a full point above the national average.

Ontario to Break Deficit Record:

The $18 billion is a combined deficit tally for 2008-09, which the government projected in November would have a shortfall of just $500 million, and for 2009-10.

It seems to me that while the federal Conservatives are getting us into a royal mess that is going to take years to recover from, don't presume for one second that we would be any better off with a Liberal Government. If they are anything like their Ontario Liberal cousins we would be much worse off.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Chuck U. Farlie

[Smallc]

Yes, because the recent history of balanced budgets from federal Liberal governments should be ignored. Look at Alberta. How are they doing?

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Yes, because the recent history of balanced budgets from federal Liberal governments should be ignored. Look at Alberta. How are they doing?

Since you asked:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/fp/C...6221/story.html

In Alberta, the province's unemployment rate rose to 6.6 per cent from 6.0 per cent in April. Alberta actually gained 600 jobs in May overall comprised of 7,700 full-time jobs but a decline of 7,100 part-time jobs.

And its a bonus that Alberta is adding full-time jobs to replace part-time. I don't have a source at the moment, but I have read that Ontario's only job gains are all part-time.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nation...article1169906/

In Alberta, the Progressive Conservative government revealed in April that the province is heading toward a $4.7-billion deficit this year

It seems to me that 6.6% is much lower than 9.4%, and $4.7 billion is much lower than $18 billion.

The past balanced budgets are irrelevant because they were in times of prosperity - and not the worst recession since the '30s.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Chuck U. Farlie

[tango]

Over in the Federal thread a lot of 'lefties' are taking shots at the Conservative's numbers... citing the massive job losses and massive deficit.

I wonder though if it wouldn't be much worse if the Liberals were in charge?

Just take a look at Ontario, for example, under Liberal leadership:

Ontario Job Losses Worst in Canada:

Ontario to Break Deficit Record:

It seems to me that while the federal Conservatives are getting us into a royal mess that is going to take years to recover from, don't presume for one second that we would be any better off with a Liberal Government. If they are anything like their Ontario Liberal cousins we would be much worse off.

In a sense I agree with you - It's silly to blame a particular party in one country for something that is happening world wide, regardless of politics.

However, it has to work both ways, so to turn around and try to blame another party is not an improvement.

[Smallc]

It seems to me that 6.6% is much lower than 9.4%, and $4.7 billion is much lower than $18 billion.

The past balanced budgets are irrelevant because they were in times of prosperity - and not the worst recession since the '30s.

First Alberta has always had a lower unemployment rate and you know that. Second: $4.7B / 3.5M people = $1342 per person. $18B (although the auto bailout will drive it higher) / 12.9M people = $1395

Seems that Alberta is doing just as bad in terms of balancing the budget.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Smallc

[Shady]

Yes, because the recent history of balanced budgets from federal Liberal governments should be ignored.

Well, you seem to be ignoring Harper's balanced budgets, every year except this year, which features a deep world wide recession.

[Smallc]

He already has half as many deficits as surpluses, but hey, whose counting, right?

[Shady]

He already has half as many deficits as surpluses, but hey, whose counting, right?

Well, obviously you're not counting, because that's not correct. But don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

[Smallc]

2006....surplus...20007...surplus....2008...deficit...hmmmm. I'm wrong?

[Visionseeker]

It seems to me that 6.6% is much lower than 9.4%, and $4.7 billion is much lower than $18 billion.

Indeed. Alberta's employment figures are certainly better. But then Alberta has never really had a manufacturing sector to speak of. Further, Alberta's oil fields draw many a migrant worker. When these people get laid-off, the go back home to NFLD, and the Atlantic provinces or wherever else they may be from. These exits help keep Alberta's unemployed numbers down while raising the figures elsewhere.

On the deficit front, $4.7 billion for 3.5 million inhabitants versus $18.7 billion for 12.9 million souls is pretty comparable:

Alberta per capita = $1343

Ontario per capita = $1450

Now if we turn to the social and environmental implications of each province's economy, a different picture emerges entirely.

Alberta is both blessed and cursed by dinosaurs having been buried great quantities under its soil. On the one hand, she benefits from the exploitation of an extremely lucrative commodity; on the other she pays the price of the dirty boom town that will eventually go bust.

Believe it or not, Alberta has bigger long term problems than Ontario will ever have.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Visionseeker

[Smallc]

Alberta per capita = $1343

Ontario per capita = $1450

What is the Ontario number based on? I thought it was lower than that.

[Visionseeker]

What is the Ontario number based on? I thought it was lower than that.

Stats Can population projections

Canada's Population Estimates

[Smallc]

Sorry, you're right. I had the wrong numbers from a non official estimate. I'll correct my numbers.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Smallc

[WIP]

I've been all across the political spectrum during my life, and I'm not sure exactly where I am now! I am sure that Conservatives and conservative philosophy that has also permeated the Liberal Party (and the Democratic Party in the U.S.) is a dangerous social movement that is taking us down the road to fascism -- where we have militaristic patriarchal values, authoritarian government, shrinking personal freedoms, blending of religion and politics, and the deliberate dismantling of the Middle Class by means of unbridled free trade, corporate tax breaks, and supporting union-busting tactics of mega-corporations like Walmart.

The conservative thinkers saw what happened with the growth of a middle class after the Depression and WWII and didn't like what they saw. The new middle class was a threat to both the authority of business leaders, and the authority of the Catholic and Protestant religious leaders on personal, moral issues. They were more politically active than earlier generations, but now that we are back to an era where most people are working 50 - 60 hours a week, if possible, to make ends meet, the shrinking middle class is too busy struggling to pay the bills, to be able to devote much time to questioning government policy.

The grand Conservative strategy is to impoverish the middle class at the expense of the top 1 to 5% -- the old privileged aristocracy by any other name! But, to keep the conservative foot soldiers supporting their corporate paymasters, their anger and dissatisfaction is diverted and unleashed on minority groups that are accused of defiling the Christian nation: whether they be racial minorities, immigrants or homosexuals; rage must be diverted to scapegoats so the devout followers don't start asking why the CEO's of their corporations are the only ones gaining in good times and bad, with none of their entrepreneurial know-how "trickling down" to the rest of society.

The fact that the Liberal Party runs a slightly more moderate version of conservative, supply-side philosophy makes the question of whether "Liberals are worse than Conservatives" a meaningless argument! As in the States, both parties are beholden to the same interests who always have politicians working in their interests no matter who wins the election. So the Liberal (or Democratic) Party may make noises about cheap imports from China and elsewhere, but once in power, they have no wiggle room to make any substantive changes to a strategy that strengthens the economic grip of multinational corporations at everyone else's expense.

There are some minor improvements when straight 100 proof conservatives are dumped out on their ass, but if you ignore the shrill, ridiculous right wing rhetoric State-side, and observe how closely Obama is following the economic and military strategies of the Bush Administration (which no doubt will be mirrored by an Ignatieff win here), it's worth asking whether it is an actual benefit to put a slightly more moderate group of corporate toadies in power -- which will only be replaced by another round of conservative fanaticism calling for more business tax cuts and privatization of health, education and public services. Have a nice day!

[Borg]

I've been all across the political spectrum during my life, and I'm not sure exactly where I am now! I am sure that Conservatives and conservative philosophy that has also permeated the Liberal Party (and the Democratic Party in the U.S.) is a dangerous social movement that is taking us down the road to fascism -- where we have militaristic patriarchal values, authoritarian government, shrinking personal freedoms, blending of religion and politics, and the deliberate dismantling of the Middle Class

I cannot believe this is not a cut and paste from a conspiracy theorist web site

In all actuality there might a few positives to let the pendulum swing back a bit from where we are today

You live in a world of fear - too bad

Borg

[canfan]

It seems to me that while the federal Conservatives are getting us into a royal mess that is going to take years to recover from, don't presume for one second that we would be any better off with a Liberal Government. If they are anything like their Ontario Liberal cousins we would be much worse off.

I'm not sure if we'd be any better or worse off but your comparison with Ontario Liberals suffers from too many flaws to be accurate. Aside from assuming that the Ontario party is the exact same as the federal party you'd also have to ignore the fact that Ontario has a huge manufacturing sector which is arguably the worst hit industry in this recession. I don't think manufacturing makes up the same percentage of Canada's economy as it does for Ontario. No matter who was in power in Ontario I doubt the job loss numbers would be much different.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

I'm not sure if we'd be any better or worse off but your comparison with Ontario Liberals suffers from too many flaws to be accurate. Aside from assuming that the Ontario party is the exact same as the federal party you'd also have to ignore the fact that Ontario has a huge manufacturing sector which is arguably the worst hit industry in this recession. I don't think manufacturing makes up the same percentage of Canada's economy as it does for Ontario. No matter who was in power in Ontario I doubt the job loss numbers would be much different.

It was a very loose comparison that I made in the first place, hence: "If they are anything like their Ontario Liberal cousins we would be much worse off."

The federal Liberals are pushing for money to flow faster, and they aren't known as 'tax and spend liberals' for nothing.

I am quite certain we would be worse off if the liberals were in charge - maybe not worse off in loss of jobs, but worse off deficit wise very likely. I'm just getting tired of liberals and ndp'ers jumping on the conservative's back over the size of the deficit, calling for Flaherty's resignation and such, meanwhile the deficit would be greater if either of them were in charge.

This bullshit partisan shit is getting redundant and hypocritical - from all sides. I'm becoming more and more aware that none of these politicians are worth a fraction of what they are paid, in fact, they should all be shot and pissed on. And the cheerleaders on this site don't help either.

[Smallc]

What evidence do we have that the Liberals would be worse? How have the Liberals been worse in recent times? Given recent history, it would seem that they all called tax and spend liberals for nothing (btw, that statement actually isn't abut the Liberal party).

Oh, and that last paragraph...real nice . I'd like to see people do better than the elected officials that we have....I would say that job is not as easy as too many seem to think.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Smallc

[ironstone]

Yes, because the recent history of balanced budgets from federal Liberal governments should be ignored. Look at Alberta. How are they doing?

Does the c in your nickname stand for Communist?

[Smallc]

No, look at the name again and lead the line underneath it. I'm a liberal...not a communist. There's a difference.

[bush_cheney2004]

....There are some minor improvements when straight 100 proof conservatives are dumped out on their ass, but if you ignore the shrill, ridiculous right wing rhetoric State-side, and observe how closely Obama is following the economic and military strategies of the Bush Administration (which no doubt will be mirrored by an Ignatieff win here), it's worth asking whether it is an actual benefit to put a slightly more moderate group of corporate toadies in power -- which will only be replaced by another round of conservative fanaticism calling for more business tax cuts and privatization of health, education and public services. Have a nice day!

It appears not to matter for a more basic reason....in your mind...Canada's political fate is driven by the dynamics of another nation. So pervasive is the perceived influence, you are doomed to a foreign outcome no matter what. How strange.....

Edited June 7, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

It appears not to matter for a more basic reason....in your mind...Canada's political fate is driven by the dynamics of another nation. So pervasive is the perceived influence, you are doomed to a foreign outcome no matter what. How strange.....

If I was Prime Minister - it would be another story..It would be America driven by Canadian policy and dynamic it would be - I would make America the greatest nation on earth - rather than the scoudrel that we copy..THEN once America was put into a proper behavioural holding patteren - Canada could then copy big brother and get a better out come in their parroting..at present - we copy a big brother gone bad. Big brothers are supposed to set a good example - all we have in America is a brother who is a drunk - a doper - a liar - a bully - and a stealing murdering wretch - but he's OUR big brother we love him so we tolerate him - he needs to go to re-hab real bad..

[bush_cheney2004]

.... Big brothers are supposed to set a good example - all we have in America is a brother who is a drunk - a doper - a liar - a bully - and a stealing murdering wretch - but he's OUR big brother we love him so we tolerate him - he needs to go to re-hab real bad..

...or more likely...America is not your "big brother" at all. Eddie Haskel......not Walley.

[Oleg Bach]

...or more likely...America is not your "big brother" at all. Eddie Haskel......not Walley.

Funny as usual - good morning America - Yah you - ! Not many remember the what Eddie represented..but he does fit in as being very very American - but remember that Walley's dad was an actor who was drunk on set almost every day...so you guys do like to hide the fact that your old man Ward was a piss tank who never got our out of his stuffed chair while giving a lecture - because he would expose himself by staggering - Stay in your pre-warmed seat of power and do not stand up BC - some one will notice that you are locked and loaded..

[bush_cheney2004]

but remember that Walley's dad was an actor who was drunk on set almost every day...so you guys do like to hide the fact that your old man Ward was a piss tank who never got our out of his stuffed chair while giving a lecture - because he would expose himself by staggering -

But in this analogy, Ward is not Eddie's father. You know, the "Crown" slept around a lot back then......