"the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable."

[KrustyKidd]

do you mean after the US starts settling fanatical religious southern americans inside canada and then controls its borders and everything that goes in and out?

Very good counter analogy Dub. Kudos!

[bush_cheney2004]

do you mean after the US starts settling fanatical religious southern americans inside canada and then controls its borders and everything that goes in and out?

The US already did this. See Oregon Treaty.

lol @ pretending that its the rockets that is the symptom of the problem.

So are Israeli interventions into Gaza and the West Bank. One good symptom deserves another.

Edited June 9, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[kuzadd]

The Arabs rejected it outright. The Jews agreed with it. Your hisotory is faulty.

You said

They were not. It was the Arabs who rejected it immediately. Once you acknowledge that, you will be able to debate with knowledge and thus, contribute positively to the forums.

Krusty: you keep insisting on making a bogus claim that Israel accepted the partition borders.

Now did you look at the map, I linked to?

I will link it again

MAPPING AN OCCUPATION

The partition borders are clearly marked there, just click them in!

Then look at all the land Israel has stolen, controlled, illegally settled.

Well beyond their partition borders.

Has Israel ever abided the partition borders?. The answer is NO.

To accept means to abide and live by, to agree to the terms.

Not from the get go, not now, and not ever.

Israel clearly did not ever accept their borders.

David Ben Gurion made that more then clear on many occasions.

"Take the American Declaration of Independence for instance. It contains no mention of the territorial limits. We are not obliged to state the limits of our State."

"To maintain the status quo will not do. We have to set up a dynamic state bent upon expansion"

But more then that, far more then those words uttered in a clear fashion, the ACTIONS of Israel since the partition have made it abundantly clear that Israel never, not even for a second considered the partition borders the limits of their nation.

To believe so is to believe utter fancy.

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." --

Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Does that sound like someone who abides by the partition border?

And why would they, the Israeli government has a colonialist mindset, and the people are intoxicated with the mindset of religious fanatacism, "God gave them" the land.

Certainly when you 'believe' that God ordained something to you , borders dictated by mere mortals will never stand in the way.

[KrustyKidd]

Krusty: you keep insisting on making a bogus claim that Israel accepted the partition borders.

I never said that Israel accepted something that was nonexistent. They accepted the resolution in principal and, were willing to work with it until the Arabs rejected it outright. At that point, there was no resolution or borders to accept.

Once again;

Global Security Israeli War of Independence

Although considering the plan defective in terms of their expectations from the League of Nations Mandate twenty-five years earlier, the Zionist General Council stated willingness in principle to accept partition. The League of Arab States (Arab League) Council, meeting in December 1947, said it would take whatever measures were required to prevent implementation of the resolution.

Your contention;

"Israel had defined borders, when the UN partitioned Palestine.

They were rejected immediately, by Israel."

Reality is Palestine had defined borders , when the UN partitioned Palestine, they were rejected immediately by the Arabs while the Israelis were willing to work with the resolution.

[kuzadd]

I never said that Israel accepted something that was nonexistent. They accepted the resolution in principal and, were willing to work with it until the Arabs rejected it outright. At that point, there was no resolution or borders to accept.

Once again;

Global Security Israeli War of Independence

Your contention;

Reality is Palestine had defined borders , when the UN partitioned Palestine, they were rejected immediately by the Arabs while the Israelis were willing to work with the resolution.

Hate to break it to you there were borders, and that map you chose to ignore, lays them out clearly.

When the country of Palestine was partitioned, defineable borders were given to create Israel from the land usurped from the indigenous population. Israel has always ignored those borders, that were alotted to them. I have covered that numerous times already.

Here is the map again

map of an occupation

click on the interactive map, have some fun.

and then get the facts.

[KrustyKidd]

Israel has always ignored those borders, that were alotted to them. I have covered that numerous times already.

And I'm covering this one. There was no borders as the Arabs refused the resolution even though the Israelis were willing to accept it. Hence, since the Arabs outright opted out of this altogether, the Israelis were bound to honor nothing.

Now, back to your contention:

Kuzadd's contention

"Israel had defined borders, when the UN partitioned Palestine.

They were rejected immediately, by Israel."

So wondering, since an agreement was destroyed by the Arabs, how could the Israelis, who were willing to work with it, reject it since it became instantly (along with any responsibility to honor borders drawn out in the resolution) non existent upon Arab rejection?

[kuzadd]

And I'm covering this one. There was no borders as the Arabs refused the resolution even though the Israelis were willing to accept it. Hence, since the Arabs outright opted out of this altogether, the Israelis were bound to honor nothing.

Now, back to your contention:

Kuzadd's contention

So wondering, since an agreement was destroyed by the Arabs, how could the Israelis, who were willing to work with it, reject it since it became instantly (along with any responsibility to honor borders drawn out in the resolution) non existent upon Arab rejection?

well kk, if there were no borders, no limitations set out for Israel with the partition what the hell was Ben Gurion talking about?

He is clearing acknowledging that there were and he is just going to ignore them.

exactly opposite what you are saying.

"To maintain the status quo will not do. We have to set up a dynamic state bent upon expansion"

""Take the American Declaration of Independence for instance. It contains no mention of the territorial limits. We are not obliged to state the limits of our State."

[KrustyKidd]

well kk, if there were no borders, no limitations set out for Israel with the partition what the hell was Ben Gurion talking about?

He is clearing acknowledging that there were and he is just going to ignore them.

exactly opposite what you are saying.

"To maintain the status quo will not do. We have to set up a dynamic state bent upon expansion"

""Take the American Declaration of Independence for instance. It contains no mention of the territorial limits. We are not obliged to state the limits of our State."

Why don't you just face it, the Arabs rejected partition outright. The majority of Jewish groups including Ben Gurion were in favor of it with Gurion simply wanting more land.

The Jews accepted the resolution in principal, the Arabs outright rejected it in it's entirety.

"Take the American Declaration of Independence for instance. It contains no mention of the territorial limits. We are not obliged to state the limits of our State."

Ben Gurion 14 may 1948, seven months after the Arabs rejected partition and the day before Israel became their own country.

[kuzadd]

Why don't you just face it, the Arabs rejected partition outright. The majority of Jewish groups including Ben Gurion were in favor of it with Gurion simply wanting more land.

The Jews accepted the resolution in principal, the Arabs outright rejected it in it's entirety.

Ben Gurion 14 may 1948, seven months after the Arabs rejected partition and the day before Israel became their own country.

oh and one more thing kk, your arguement rings false wrt Palestinians, because as you state yourself, the partition of Palestine was a reality, with or without them. Israel with prescribed borders, (that they had no intention of respecting) became a country.

And that has been my contention all along, that Israel never accepted it's borders, which finally you concede is correct, why must it take so long for awareness of facts to set in.

KK: "The majority of Jewish groups including Ben Gurion were in favor of it with Gurion simply wanting more land."

My contention all along, thanks for waking up!

Now obviously as already stated, Israel had never really recognized it's borders, drawn up in the partition of Palestine, and always intended to usurp the indigenous people.

thank-you, thank-you , please throw cash on the stage

[KrustyKidd]

Now obviously as already stated, Israel had never really recognized it's borders, drawn up in the partition of Palestine, and always intended to usurp the indigenous people.

Israel never recognized the borders as the partition never occurred.

Want to know why partition never occurred, despite the majority of Jews as well as Ben Gurion wanting it?

Because the Arabs refused it outright. No negotiation, no talks, no agreement. Simply no to UN Resolution 181, the Partition of Palestine. That is an historic fact. Look up Res 181 on the UN site. See who voted against it.

[Bonam]

oh and one more thing kk, your arguement rings false wrt Palestinians, because as you state yourself, the partition of Palestine was a reality, with or without them. Israel with prescribed borders, (that they had no intention of respecting) became a country.

And that has been my contention all along, that Israel never accepted it's borders, which finally you concede is correct, why must it take so long for awareness of facts to set in.

KK: "The majority of Jewish groups including Ben Gurion were in favor of it with Gurion simply wanting more land."

My contention all along, thanks for waking up!

Now obviously as already stated, Israel had never really recognized it's borders, drawn up in the partition of Palestine, and always intended to usurp the indigenous people.

thank-you, thank-you , please throw cash on the stage

The original borders proposed by the UN for Israel were likely not satisfactory for some Israelis, yes. Little wonder, of course, since it was a collection of 3 disjointed islands of a state, and didn't include nor even touch the city of Jerusalem, which was surrounded for miles in every direction by the Arab part of the state.

That being said, had the Arabs accepted these borders, and not proceeded to invade Israel, those borders would have remained as they were, since Israel would not have openly invaded its neighbouring states in a war of aggression. Israel has never launched a war of aggression against its neighbors with the intent of permanently annexing their territories.

As it was, the Arabs leaders decided that no Israel could exist in that region, whatever its borders, and invaded. It was the Arab invasion, and the resulting defensive war by the Israelis, that shaped the borders of Israel as the end of its war of independence. It was not Israel's fault that the Arabs decided to launch a war.

If the war had gone more poorly for Israel, and at the end of 1948 Israel's borders had ended up smaller than proposed by the UN in the partition plan rather than larger, would you be complaining about the Arab occupation of Israeli land? Somehow I doubt it.

To summarize so that it is simple enough for you to understand:

Borders change in war. Israel would have stayed within its UN proposed borders had there been no war. The war was launched by the Arabs, who invaded Israel after rejecting the partition plan. The newly founded state of Israel defended itself. In the process of defending itself, it secured territory that was originally proposed to be part of the Arab state. The ceasefire after the war was based on the disposition of forces of the two sides at the end of the war.

Which of the above simple statements do you disagree with? Why do you blame Israel for managing to win a war launched by aggressive enemies bent on the finishing the genocide of the Jewish people?

[KrustyKidd]

Which of the above simple statements do you disagree with? Why do you blame Israel for managing to win a war launched by aggressive enemies bent on the finishing the genocide of the Jewish people?

Ben Gurion was willing to accept the partition even though he would have negotiated for more land. In Kuzadd's mind, that is more of a mortal sin than outright refusing partition altogether. Hence, in order to support his prejudicial view of the world as it is, he has to try and re write history.

[dub]

Ben Gurion was willing to accept the partition even though he would have negotiated for more land. In Kuzadd's mind, that is more of a mortal sin than outright refusing partition altogether. Hence, in order to support his prejudicial view of the world as it is, he has to try and re write history.

i don't think anyone here is saying that the arabs accepted the partition. that's not even the argument here.

i'm not sure why you're trying to re-write history and say that israel accepted the partition, because they didn't. majority of the main leaders refused to accept the partition and only accepted israel's sovereignty with undefined borders because they all had a vision of a greater israel.

heck, they didn't even accept the 1967 border..

i mean, for fuck sakes, the current israeli prime minister won't even accept a palestinian state.

krusty... why do you continue to make excuses? why don't you just be honest about the situation?

[KrustyKidd]

i'm not sure why you're trying to re-write history and say that israel accepted the partition, because they didn't.

Where did I say they ever did? I said that the Arabs immediately trashed it so there was no partition to accept or decline. What I have said is that they were willing to accept it but the Arabs immediately said no.

Here, read again

Although considering the plan defective in terms of their expectations from the League of Nations Mandate twenty-five years earlier, the Zionist General Council stated willingness in principle to accept partition. The League of Arab States (Arab League) Council, meeting in December 1947, said it would take whatever measures were required to prevent implementation of the resolution.

In short, although willing to accept it or, at least negotiate, it was impossible for them to do so as the Arabs pulled the plug on any sort of partition or implementation of Resolution 181.

[DogOnPorch]

It really doesn't matter as once the Arabs went to war, all bets were off. Do or die time. It's like rolling craps. The Arabs doubled up and lost.

Outnumbered at first, the poorly armed Haganah units looked like easy pickin's to the Mufti. So, yah can't blame the old Nazi for trying.

[dub]

Where did I say they ever did? I said that the Arabs immediately trashed it so there was no partition to accept or decline. What I have said is that they were willing to accept it but the Arabs immediately said no.

Here, read again

no. why don't you read your own response:

QUOTE (kuzadd @ Jun 6 2009, 07:00 AM) *

Does he make it clear enough? Israel had defined borders, when the UN partitioned Palestine.

They were rejected immediately, by Israel.

Wow. I'm not sure what to say about this unbelievable perversion of historic fact.

When you actually read up on it and discover that reality is quite opposite, will your viewpoint change or, did you try to change historic reality to fit your preconceived viewpoint?

israel rejected the plan when they decided not to accept the borders outlined in the plan. losing greater israel was against the vision of the zionists.

In short, although willing to accept it or, at least negotiate, it was impossible for them to do so as the Arabs pulled the plug on any sort of partition or implementation of Resolution 181.

regardless of what the arabs did, israel did not accept the borders.

Edited June 10, 2009 by dub

[kuzadd]

KK

In short, although willing to accept it or, at least negotiate, it was impossible for them to do so as the Arabs pulled the plug on any sort of partition or implementation of Resolution 181.

your arguement that because this resolution was rejected by some parties, it was not passed it completely bogus.

It is irrelevant bullshit spin, used as propaganda to create a negative image of the Palestians.

It has no relevancy to the passing of the resolution.

It is just more spin.

Resolution 181 was passed and Palestine was partitioned.

The rest as they say is history.

UN Partition Plan

"The United Nations General Assembly decided in 1947 on the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be an internationalised city."

"Some Jewish leaders, such as David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli prime minister, opposed the plan because their ambition was a Jewish state on the entire territory of Mandate Palestine. "

So the Israelis, pretended to agree to the terms of the partition,(which means they really did NOT accept the terms of the partition) with the fingers crossed behind their backs, with the full intention of usurping the indigenous peoples land, as they have been from the get go.

Just the facts, not the spin.

Edited June 10, 2009 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

The original borders proposed by the UN for Israel were likely not satisfactory for some Israelis, yes. Little wonder, of course, since it was a collection of 3 disjointed islands of a state, and didn't include nor even touch the city of Jerusalem, which was surrounded for miles in every direction by the Arab part of the state.

But, hey it is ok for Israel to create little disjointed islands, under Israeli control of course, for the Palestinians through land theft?

Right?

MAPPING AN OCCUPATION

the map, shows clearly what little is left of the Palestian allotment, under partition that is actually under their control. It also shows all the roads Israel controls.

And they can just suck it up?

As Israel usurps the land.

Cause "God gave the land to Israel" right?

Edited June 10, 2009 by kuzadd

[Oleg Bach]

God never gave anyone group anything ------where the hell do they get this idea - that some devine power looked down on some shifty nomadic tribe and said --------------Hey Isreal - I really like your behaviour and persona -----here is a chunk of the earth that belongs strickly to you - and you have the right to kill anyone that attempts to take it from you ' The planet earth is the property of all of humanity - and nations or extended families have a right to a home - but - not at the expense of others - one can not be entitled to have a home by taking it away from another - one can not become rich by creating poverty for another - It is not proper or right - It's humanly illegal and devinely illegal..all should survive - that is called civilization - Israel is not a civilized nation - nor is any nation that supports it.

[kuzadd]

dub:

if you can spare an hour of time, give a listen to this woman speaking.

"The Cost of the Occupation to Israelis and Palestinians" with Israeli activist Dorothy Naor. The continuous state of war; Israeli government policies of ethnic cleansing and expansionism leading to the devaluation of human life, including the loss of life and limb, socio-economic deterioration, post-traumatic stress and lack of security; boycott, divestment and sanctions as non-violent means to pressure the Israeli government.

She touches on alot of points made throughout this thread, and more, much more.

[kuzadd]

God never gave anyone group anything ------where the hell do they get this idea - that some devine power looked down on some shifty nomadic tribe and said --------------Hey Isreal - I really like your behaviour and persona -----here is a chunk of the earth that belongs strickly to you - and you have the right to kill anyone that attempts to take it from you ' The planet earth is the property of all of humanity - and nations or extended families have a right to a home - but - not at the expense of others - one can not be entitled to have a home by taking it away from another - one can not become rich by creating poverty for another - It is not proper or right - It's humanly illegal and devinely illegal..all should survive - that is called civilization - Israel is not a civilized nation - nor is any nation that supports it.

They get this idea, through religious indoctrination and state-sponsored propaganda.

This sadly works to create fanatics out of good people, causes them to turn a blind-eye to their own inhumanities, it blinds them to the error of their ways.

That is the only way I can see an ability for this kind of nonsense to take hold.

[Oleg Bach]

They get this idea, through religious indoctrination and state-sponsored propaganda.

This sadly works to create fanatics out of good people, causes them to turn a blind-eye to their own inhumanities, it blinds them to the error of their ways.

That is the only way I can see an ability for this kind of nonsense to take hold.

Sorry to agree with you - the average person is not in tune - or fully aware - nor do they think for themselves ---BUT -those that are aware of what is going on - and perpetuate problems for the average person - while they grow rich should be arrested for taking advantage of the naive ---- any group of men that allow - civilians to die - on either side - and do not care are not men but cowards and crooks - time for the our western crooks to stop supporting the eastern crooks - It's a crime to put Israel and Palistine through this torture - when will the Arabs and Jews wake up to the fact they are being used - and their "leadership" do not care who dies as long as they old power - power over a shit hole.

[bush_cheney2004]

... It's a crime to put Israel and Palistine through this torture - when will the Arabs and Jews wake up to the fact they are being used - and their "leadership" do not care who dies as long as they old power - power over a shit hole.

But it was swell for North and South America....Africa too.

Cheers!

Edited June 10, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry to agree with you - the average person is not in tune - or fully aware - nor do they think for themselves.

Luckily, we have Oleg around to 'think' for us. I suggest we start drinking heavily.

---BUT -those that are aware of what is going on - and perpetuate problems for the average person - while they grow rich should be arrested for taking advantage of the naive ---- any group of men that allow - civilians to die - on either side - and do not care are not men but cowards and crooks - time for the our western crooks to stop supporting the eastern crooks - It's a crime to put Israel and Palistine through this torture - when will the Arabs and Jews wake up to the fact they are being used - and their "leadership" do not care who dies as long as they old power - power over a shit hole.

Yawn...we're all just pawns of the neo-cons...yawn...sheeple...got it.

[dub]

^ ?

looks like DoP will never miss an opportunity to remind us what a useless poster he is.

dub:

if you can spare an hour of time, give a listen to this woman speaking.

"The Cost of the Occupation to Israelis and Palestinians" with Israeli activist Dorothy Naor. The continuous state of war; Israeli government policies of ethnic cleansing and expansionism leading to the devaluation of human life, including the loss of life and limb, socio-economic deterioration, post-traumatic stress and lack of security; boycott, divestment and sanctions as non-violent means to pressure the Israeli government.

She touches on alot of points made throughout this thread, and more, much more.

thanx. i will when i get a chance.