JerrySeinfeld Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) Is it racist to make and observation about the characteristics of certain cultures? The reason I ask is that I heear it all the time in the affirmative: "The Germans make superb cars" "The mokatobo tribe is a very caring and communicative mircoculture" "The Chinese excel in math and science" and I also hear it in the negative, albeit limited to certain cultures only: "American tourists are assholes abroad" "Most Americans are fat" Interestingly I rarely hear someone complain about these kinds of statements. Because society accepts them as PC. And also because many stereotypes have some root in the truth - or at least have roots in repeated observations of reality. But if I change the subject of the sentence, so too does the reaction. Just try it: "The Americans make superb cars and the mokatobo tribe are assholes abroad as well as fat." "Many Islamic societies lag badly on women's rights" The only thing that has changed is the subject - not the verbs or the adjectives. But all of a sudden you've got a "racist" statement on your hands. My observation is that most of this reckless use of the word "racist" or "bigot" has been brought about by PC progressives on the left. And it's my strong suspicion that these kinds of accusations aren't genuine in their attempt to further debate, but rather are designed to tar and blackball the speaker to SHUT DOWN debate. As well, if these people ARE genuine in their use of aggressive and accusatory terminology (racist, bigot etc.), I would suggest to them that they are taking the wrong approach. This is similar to the effect of calling every unwelcome male advance a "mini rape" by ultra feminists; all it does is belittle and trivialize the true nature of the word in language as well as true victims of real crime. If "racist" and "bigot" is thrown around as freely as I see it done by leftist progressives in today's society, desensitization will occur and these strong words will lose their effect. But I digress. Question: Is it possible that the draconian assault on discussion and language by the left is approaching orwellian levels? Are we still allowed to make observations about our increasingly diverse society without being hauled out in front of the language police? Leftists are fond of pointing out flaws in our own society. So shouldn't it be just as acceptable to point our flaws in new members of our society? Isn't insulating these people from criticism a de facto exclusion of them from the equal and proper adult debate that makes us all equal members of society to begin with? I once heeard an intelligent man say that what we need is less "sensitivity training" and more "de-sensitivity training". As a straight white male I take my fair share of name calling and bear the brunt of many jokes on television everyday. And I take it...with a smile. Maybe everyone else could try the same. Or does that make me "racist"? Edited May 27, 2009 by JerrySeinfeld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 The truth isn't racist, but generalization based on the truth is on the border line...I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Truth is never racist - however, there are those who would have you believe this - bringing on the fear of actually speaking the truth Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) Well I suppose one of the big problems is that multiculturalism isn't a two way street. You and I (Jerry) aren't moving to Pakistan, for example. The vast majority of countries on this planet are anything but multicultural. If we only took immigrants from countries with similar views and policies re: multiculturalism, maybe it'd actually work. We could move over there for a better life. Another problem I have is the term 'visible minority'. If we truely believe in globalism and multiculturalism as a society, caucasians are infact the visible minority on a global scale. That it is only being applied in Canada, it makes me wonder about the ultimate effect it will have on MY culture. I already feel I live in a country that will bend over backwards for anyone but me...what will my kids have to face? Good post, Jerry. Edited May 27, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 As a straight white male I take my fair share of name calling and bear the brunt of many jokes on television everyday. And I take it...with a smile.Maybe everyone else could try the same. Or does that make me "racist"? You dont get your face punched in, on a bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 You dont get your face punched in, on a bus. How does this relate to telling the truth? Or are we already starting to find excuses? Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 How does this relate to telling the truth?Or are we already starting to find excuses? Borg "Do not throw your pearls (truth) before swine - they will trample over the pearls not knowing or caring what they are - then - they turn on you like vicious dogs and rip you apart" - to para phrase....sometimes you have to keep your mouth shut - some are not capable nor do they have the natural equipment to deal with reality (truth) - you can not change what nature has designed or failed to design....keep your mouth shut untill you develope the skill to know quickly who is stupid and violent and who is not.. Do I walk into the welfare office and state to them that without me being in my position they would be on the other side of the table? No - I feed the machine exactly what it needs to guarentee the out come - like a court of law - There is a recepe` You put in exactly what it take to bake the cake you desire - you do not tell them the truth - It took me most of my life to learn how to survive in a world of delluded creeps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 "Do not throw your pearls (truth) before swine - they will trample over the pearls not knowing or caring what they are - then - they turn on you like vicious dogs and rip you apart" - to para phrase....sometimes you have to keep your mouth shut - some are not capable nor do they have the natural equipment to deal with reality (truth) - you can not change what nature has designed or failed to design....keep your mouth shut untill you develope the skill to know quickly who is stupid and violent and who is not.. Do I walk into the welfare office and state to them that without me being in my position they would be on the other side of the table? No - I feed the machine exactly what it needs to guarentee the out come - like a court of law - There is a recepe` You put in exactly what it take to bake the cake you desire - you do not tell them the truth - It took me most of my life to learn how to survive in a world of delluded creeps. I would love to discount you for this - but in fact it is sound advice Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I would love to discount you for this - but in fact it is sound advice Borg We all wish people would learn and change...they don't always do so - there is a vet in my hood - a tall black kid that supposedly did a tour of duty - I have to explain to him that he is not to assualt those who he finds offensive. Those that "disrespect" him - that we all have the freedom of speech- in a free society - He has attacked three people - people that were good and kind to him...I still give him a lecture - but I doubt that he gets it - he may have already been mentally ill before he served..or serving may have broken him - or he might just be plain stupid or poorly trained because he never had a real father..Do I give up on him? Not fully - but I will not tell him the absolute truth - He almost assualted me for "talking to him like I was better" - well I am better - I am older and more informed...I explain to him - to be patient - war makes you totally informed and he has to re-adjust to those that are in fairy land - he almost gets it - but he is potentially dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 We all wish people would learn and change...they don't always do so - there is a vet in my hood - a tall black kid that supposedly did a tour of duty - I have to explain to him that he is not to assualt those who he finds offensive. Those that "disrespect" him - that we all have the freedom of speech- in a free society - He has attacked three people - people that were good and kind to him...I still give him a lecture - but I doubt that he gets it - he may have already been mentally ill before he served..or serving may have broken him - or he might just be plain stupid or poorly trained because he never had a real father..Do I give up on him? Not fully - but I will not tell him the absolute truth - He almost assualted me for "talking to him like I was better" - well I am better - I am older and more informed...I explain to him - to be patient - war makes you totally informed and he has to re-adjust to those that are in fairy land - he almost gets it - but he is potentially dangerous. I suspect he is not a veteran - extremely few of them cause problems - even those with "disabilities" - his talk may be cheap - and as a black man - they are very rare in the Can Mil - and are almost to a man exemplary in their performan both in AND out of the military. Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 I suspect he is not a veteran - extremely few of them cause problems - even those with "disabilities" - his talk may be cheap - and as a black man - they are very rare in the Can Mil - and are almost to a man exemplary in their performan both in AND out of the military.Borg I know that - but I am not about to call a 7 foot crazy man a liar..perfect example of keeping your mouth shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Privacy allows one to focus and get things done - It's also called the code of silence - or a secret - top or other wise - I can not understand how our modern media devulges military secrets constantly - if this was ww 2 - the media boys would be locked away and gagged..NOthing ...should be devulged when in conflict..not the weakness or the strenght - nor should our side create propoganda that gives power to the enemy - it's as if they want war to continue for ever ----- our leaders should shut up - and the jerks who own media also have shares in the weapons industry - someone should get these men under control - the add fuel to the fire because the sell the fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 Great post Jerry. PC is making us cowards in our society. Shootings in Toronto always call for more gun control. Never more crime control and sentencing to those convicted of gun crimes. We refuse to recognize that gun crime is predominantly Black gangs that are not just misunderstood youth, but organized crime. That Black people are held hostage to these thugs. That their kids are intimidated into joining gangs for self preservation. Another shooting and His Blondness will once again call for more gun control. I don`t own a gun. My ox is not being gored directly ,but I fear that this country will one day have two segments of society that are armed. Organized crime and government. Sometimes it looks like one and the same. Is it just me or are Newfoundlanders just the nicest people but can not articulate a sentence with out using the F word? Is it just me or are the Chinese have great business sence but are horrible drivers? Is it just me ,or do Pakistanis and Indians discriminate by the lightness of skin in their own community? Am I a racist for asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 there is a vet in my hood - a tall black kid that supposedly did a tour of duty - I have to explain to him that he is not to assualt those who he finds offensive. Those that "disrespect" him - that we all have the freedom of speech- in a free society - He has attacked three people - people that were good and kind to him...I still give him a lecture - but I doubt that he gets it - he may have already been mentally ill before he served..or serving may have broken him - or he might just be plain stupid or poorly trained because he never had a real father..Do I give up on him? Not fully - but I will not tell him the absolute truth - He almost assualted me for "talking to him like I was better" - well I am better - I am older and more informed...I explain to him - to be patient - war makes you totally informed and he has to re-adjust to those that are in fairy land - he almost gets it - but he is potentially dangerous. Just watch out that he doesn't punch you in the face- on a bus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 How does this relate to telling the truth?Or are we already starting to find excuses? Borg "Truth"? Bwahaha. You tell your truth, I'll tell mine. No the point is, racism goes much deeper than a few verbal insults. There is real and violent hatred of others who are different ethnicity. Its easy to blow off a few petty insults or even jokes, not so easy when they come a-lookin fer ya. About the so-called truth of racism, I could go through every point raised by the original poster and show its not true. Germany certainly has some cheaper economy vehicles, and not all the people who build cars are pure German, either. To say that some tribe is caring, or that all chinese people excel at mathematics is also delusional. Thats where racism breaks down, because as someone said broad generalizations do not apply to all people in a culture. In other words, theres good people, smart people and assholes in every culture. Especially, in New Brunswick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gc1765 Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 The truth isn't racist, but generalization based on the truth is on the border line...I would say. I agree with Smallc. The problem is with generalizations. If you say that there are some Asians who are bad drivers, that is speaking the truth (there are some people from every race who are bad drivers). But if you say "Asians are bad drivers", you are generalizing. Of course, if you said "Asians are kind people" you are still generalizing, but I don't think anyone is going to mind if it is a compliment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 A young liberally trained kid - who is a friend of my son - suggested that I start blogging and he will set up a profit making operation--- Then he had a look at what I write here - From what I heard he now believes that I am a racist - if I say it was a "black" person that belonged to a "black" gang - that let loose with wild gun fire injuring a "black" five year old child - then I am racist - So I asked the kid - "How do I identify the offenders"? "Read the paper and you will see that 96% of stabbings and shootings are committed by "blacks" and some "browns" - The kids were in such a state of denial that they were speechless - They were so programmed that they could not bring themselves to the realization that liberal social policy was a failure and that there was a crisis in the "black" community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 I agree with Smallc. The problem is with generalizations. If you say that there are some Asians who are bad drivers, that is speaking the truth (there are some people from every race who are bad drivers). But if you say "Asians are bad drivers", you are generalizing. Of course, if you said "Asians are kind people" you are still generalizing, but I don't think anyone is going to mind if it is a compliment. Generalizations are never "the truth". They are speculation and assumptions based on small samples and have no basis on truth or fact. Racism is the use of myth applied to specific groups of people. Generalizations are often used to support racist bias. Racism targets particular groups with the intent of inferring they are inferior or less human than the spokesperson. Racism promotes discord and is intended to injure the character of the targets. Bigotry is racism but knowing that all the information presented is false, and are unsubstantiated generalizations and passing it along as fact anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Generalizations are never "the truth". They are speculation and assumptions based on small samples and have no basis on truth or fact. Racism is the use of myth applied to specific groups of people. Generalizations are often used to support racist bias. Racism targets particular groups with the intent of inferring they are inferior or less human than the spokesperson. Racism promotes discord and is intended to injure the character of the targets. Bigotry is racism but knowing that all the information presented is false, and are unsubstantiated generalizations and passing it along as fact anyway. When a white person attempts to dominate another white person because they are from a certain social and economic class - and they attempt to marginalize that person by saying all poor people are stupid - so they must serve me their superiour - is racism also - it can be perpetrated on your own group...For instance I as a white as you get...and the great grandmother of my children would say of them " Their father is Russian - they are a different breed" So she would treat her anglo grand children with care and respect and hold mine in contempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 When a white person attempts to dominate another white person because they are from a certain social and economic class - and they attempt to marginalize that person by saying all poor people are stupid - so they must serve me their superiour - is racism also - it can be perpetrated on your own group...For instance I as a white as you get...and the great grandmother of my children would say of them " Their father is Russian - they are a different breed" So she would treat her anglo grand children with care and respect and hold mine in contempt. No it is not racism. I may be a superiority complex but race has to be a dominating factor in order for it to be "racism". There are protections in Canadian society under the Charter to divert unequal treatment on the basis of age, gender, sexuality etc, but these are not racist concepts. Nonetheless they are abhorrent in a just and equitable society. Your examples cite generalizations but are not racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 No it is not racism. I may be a superiority complex but race has to be a dominating factor in order for it to be "racism". There are protections in Canadian society under the Charter to divert unequal treatment on the basis of age, gender, sexuality etc, but these are not racist concepts. Nonetheless they are abhorrent in a just and equitable society. Your examples cite generalizations but are not racism. The grand mother believed that a Slavonic is a different race (family) than an Anglo Saxon - she believed that she was superiour - but in her heart of hearts she knew my kids were brilliant and free - and she was not... also - to put males...off to the side as some feminist eccentrics do - calling them sperm doners with no other use - is to create a race - of males and it is racism to persecute them for being males. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) That can be just plain old sexism, and at the risk of discriminating by over generalizing, my own experience is that those are the sentiments of some lesbians, to whom men are not sexually interesting entities. Any woman who's interested in men would be unlikely to cut her chances that much ... except perhaps one who's temporarily 'off' men, because one was recently a big jerk ... then all bets are off. It's not shouldn't be taken personally in any case. Hell, there was a time when my favourite joke was "What do you call that useless piece of skin at the end of a penis?" A man. Just recognize that some women are either temporarily or permanently repulsed, and it has nothing to do with you personally. Think of it as ... they simply haven't had their best love yet. On another topic ... it's as if they want war to continue for ever ----- our leaders should shut up - and the jerks who own media also have shares in the weapons industry - someone should get these men under control - they add fuel to the fire because the sell the fuel. oleg ... awesome. Edited May 31, 2009 by tango Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I lived with a lesbian for a couple of years and met her friends..she was a good lover..the conclution I came to is that most lesbians really do not hate men - they just have no use for senseless and de-sensitized monkeys in male human form. It's about quality of love and honesty and tenderness - If you as a male - show great tenderness and care for a lesbian - she will love you - no woman - lesbian or other wise wants to be mounted like she is a dog or some object that catches sperm. In the alternative - I know of gay men who at one time loved woman - one in particular got turned off woman because - she attempted to bear his child with out prior consultation - no human being wants to be controled through what they love - that's not love. So this gentleman - avoids female contact and pleasures himself with males - he appears gay - but he is not -----------also - I know one young man who swears that he is gay - and goes though the motions - I met his mother - he HATES his mother with a furious passion - is he gay or just a woman hater? Well all he talks about is how much he hates woman...so he just a plain and stupid hater - not a homo - IF - though nature a person is born that is a non-breeder - a natural gay or lesbian - then they deserve full protection and care ---not persecution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Is it racist to make and observation about the characteristics of certain cultures? It is if you subscribe those characteristics primarily to someone's genetic lineage. It is if you over-emphasize cultural components and disregard other factors. ie - "Jews are good at money because Jewish culture is obsessed with making money." - disregarding the fact that Jews have historically been good with banking and trade because it was considered a "lower-class" part of the economy to the aristocracy in the countries where Jews lived and was one of the only avenues open for them to move up the economic ladder. It was also a way to make them more indispensable to the economy of the country and therefor gain more insurance against the waves of antisemitism that happened from time to time. And as for "positive" stereotypes, they usually have a flip-side that can be negative. ie - the belief that Chinese people are inherently better at math usually comes with the belief that they lack critical thinking skills and are more "robotic" and "drone-like" than Europeans. And generally, folks don't have a problem with solid statistics that are put in proper context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 You're not a racist for making observations or telling the truth. You're a racist for believing that a person's skin colour will determine how they will act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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