1 of every 300 Canadian die of Medical error in 10 years

[Oleg Bach]

From your comments, it seems that you deserve a poor medical care, and you will face that with grateful even when someday you or your family member will be so lucky to become the 1/300.

That's a myth that all are good doctors are state side. The population has grown and we have less and less good doctors in comparison because of the sheer numbers - also - doctors used to come from intellegent families - now we have those that look at the medical profession much like the legal one - that being a doctor provides social and economic status - every butcher and garbage mans son and daugher want to be a doctor- along with every peasant immigrant offspring - genetifally speaking our doctors are dumber.

[bjre]

According to statistics, during 1984 to 1988, add up to 7485 lying-in women dead in 21 provinces of China and AFE caused 5.4% of the cases of the death. AFE is the 4th the cause of the death."

If China has a same rate (1/300 die from medical error in 10 years), China need 4,333,333 (4.3 million) die in 10 years for medical error.

The quotation said, "Amniotic Fluid Embolism, AFE, is a rare but vital syndrome in obstetrics. The incident of the syndrome is 1:5000 to 1:80000, but about 50% to 86% patient would died if the syndrome happened. According to statistics, during 1984 to 1988, add up to 7485 lying-in women dead in 21 provinces of China and AFE caused 5.4% of the cases of the death. AFE is the 4th the cause of the death."

The problem is not the syndrome itself. The problem is the doctor did not find the women may have the problem before until too late.

And they did not prepare enough blood for emergency. When they need, it took one hour for the blood come and another hour for it melt. And when the woman's mother, who was a doctor for 20 years, suggested using normal method would be too slow and she suggest to using a special technique, the doctor ignored that.

There are too many chances missed to avoid the women from die.

And the most important is, all those factor did not appeared in any English media (only Chinese media), that means if the woman's mother was not a doctor herself, no one would know that.

How many other cases have similar problems, does patients has human right? why they were treated like that.

That is why I believe legislation need to change to make the hospital hard to hide the facts for hospital and unqualified doctors, So that to make them unable to remain the doctor for possible make more patients to suffer on that. 24000 Canadians dead for medical error in a year, isn't that a very serious problem?

If canada have not enough doctors, why make immigrant doctors unable to work in their own professional area? Did they kill 1 out of every 300 when they in their homeland?

Laws should be used for adjust people's behavior, and make the society be more safe. Now it seems that laws are more often used for protect the group interests or help some industries to make more money even when it harm to other's basic human rights. This should be change.

Edited May 24, 2009 by bjre

[Smallc]

We need to call our MLA's and MP's and get on their case to reform the system.

The system is being reformed...all of the time...especially in your province. There are new hospitals being built, more staff being brought into and trained within Canada, there is better technology, better coordination. It's all there to be seen, especially in Urban centres. The amount of work being done in Alberta with the near completion of the Alberta Heart Institute and the starting of construction Edmonton Clinic (and I'm sure many others) is simply phenomenal. The many changes that have taken place are what lead me to question the validity of this report today.

[bjre]

The many changes that have taken place are what lead me to question the validity of this report today.

Why the poor man is still at the gate of Scarborough Grace Hospital now, you can meet him if you go there now, he will be there until 3:00pm Eastern Time today.

[Smallc]

Why the poor man is still at the gate of Scarborough Grace Hospital now, you can meet him if you go there now, he will be there until 3:00pm Eastern Time today.

What?

[xul]

From your comments, it seems that you deserve a poor medical care, and you will face that with grateful even when someday you or your family member will be so lucky to become the 1/300.

I believe everyone deserves the consequence caused by what he or his forefathers has chosen. Ms.Chen's husband for one, I heard he is till seeking to stay in Canada (though he is not an immigrant now, but I have not doubt that he will achieve his goal....) when you alleged his wife was "murdered" by the system, so he deserves if someday he would be so lucky to become the 1/300.

But of course, everyone has rights to propose mending the system even if he has once chosen it. But what is your proposal to improve the system? Having more experienced doctors means taxpayers need to afford more taxes to pay their bills. There are also other ways. American way is that if you are rich, you can go to the private hospital and everything there is better than Canadian one except the fee.

In any case, the essence of all systems is same---if you could not afford the payout of the better one, you have to suffer from the poor one. This is the market law, it's nature, beyond all man-made laws.

Edited May 24, 2009 by xul

[bjre]

What?

You suspect the validity of this report.

But Mr. He is still protesting at the gate of the hospital until 3:00 today.

It is still happening.

Questionable doctors are still there, have not been dismissed.

Well, there are conflicting studies that I have read that disagree with the one in the CBC article (not to mention that it says BETWEEN 9000 and 24000), but assuming it's true, I happen to know that a good deal of progress has taken place in many provinces since then. The healthcare system isn't what it was in 2003. There is also evidence that the US has similar numbers.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

It's probably true for much of the world.

Actually, US is much better than Canada. according to the following report, us has " Up To 98,000" die for medical error, Canada has "up to 24000 a year.

Us population is 306,480,000, canada is 33,658,000. So in US up to one die in every 3372 US people a year, Canada is one die in every 1402 Canadian a year.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20090520/pl_u..._medical_errors

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/us...ls,832203.shtml

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-...Errors-46489-1/

http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/2009/05/011324print.html

U.S. Health Care System Fails To Protect Patients From Deadly Medical Errors

Consumers Union detailed the lack of progress since the IOM estimated in 1999 that as many as 98,000 Americans die every year from preventable medical errors.

“There is little evidence to suggest that the number of people dying from medical harm has dropped since the IOM first warned about these deadly mistakes a decade ago,

The IOM’s 1999 To Err is Human report estimated that medical errors cost the U.S. $17-29 billion a year, and recommended sweeping changes to the health care system to improve patient safety. The IOM called for a measurable improvement in patient safety, stating it would be “irresponsible to expect anything less than a 50 percent reduction in errors over five years.” The report prompted a flurry of activity in Washington, including seven high profile hearings in Congress and the introduction of five medical error bills. But none of those bills were adopted and progress in implementing a number of the IOM’s key recommendations has been frustratingly slow.

“One decade later, we can’t say whether we are any better off today than when the IOM first sounded the alarm about medical errors in 1999,” said Arthur Levin, Director of the Center for Medical Consumers and member of the IOM’s Committee on the Quality of Health Care in America, which issued the landmark To Err is Human report. “We can’t wait another decade to take the steps needed to protect patients from deadly and costly medical errors. The time to act is now. Too many lives and health care dollars are at stake.” Levin assisted Consumers Union with its report.

Does Canada has such a consumer's union to ask for rights for Canadians?

[bjre]

I believe everyone deserves the consequence caused by what he or his forefathers has chosen. Ms.Chen's husband for one, I heard he is till seeking to stay in Canada (though he is not an immigrant now, but I have not doubt that he will achieve his goal....) when you alleged his wife was "murdered" by the system, so he deserves if someday he would be so lucky to become the 1/300.

But of course, everyone has rights to propose mending the system even if he has once chosen it. But what is your proposal to improve the system? Having more experienced doctors means taxpayers need to afford more taxes to pay their bills. There are also other ways. American way is that if you are rich, you can go to the private hospital and everything there is better than Canadian one except the fee.

In any case, the essence of all systems is same---if you could not afford the payout of the better one, you have to suffer from the poor one. This is the market law, it's nature, beyond all man-made laws.

So the people who has less money has less human right than the people who has money? That is your view of human right?

Where do you go when you need a hospital? private or public?

Edited May 24, 2009 by bjre

[bush_cheney2004]

....We must understand that doctors are not living buddhas, they can not save every patient by magic or something. I'm not sure whether or not that the doctors really had some fault , but I think Mr.He should better conside his lawyer's opinion, facing the reality that the evidence is not favor his allegation.

This is a wise observation, as doctor's are not engineers with third party inspections in real time. Their art has come to be influenced more by litigation and lawyers than anything from Hippocrates.

[xul]

So the people who has less money has less human right than the people who has money? That is your view of human right?

There is a joke:

the PM: "I feel the war is unwinable..."

his political opponent: "Has everyone heard that? He doesn't want us to win the war...."

Where do you go when you need a hospital? private or public?

If an ET does some magic on me and turns me into a pure-blood Indian untouchable, I will still insist what I said because I believe it is truth.

[bjre]

But what is your proposal to improve the system? Having more experienced doctors means taxpayers need to afford more taxes to pay their bills.

See post #1 and post #27

American way is that if you are rich, you can go to the private hospital and everything there is better than Canadian one except the fee.

Some study says: ( http://www.healthcoalition.ca/death-coverage.pdf )

“More die in for-profit hospitals, study says”,

"Death rate 2% higher in for-profit hospitals"

"Hospital deaths would increase by as many as 2,200 a year if Canada introduced U.S.-style private for-profit hospitals into the health-care system, a new study suggests."

I don't know how much we can trust such study, but at least the condition in private hospitals are not so good.

Even if you have money, your life and health is still in the hand of doctors when you need them.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Canadian system needs a lot of work. Its better than the American system and in some cases not as good as a European system. The only thing certain is that it is expensive to operate any such system.

[Michael Hardner]

The only thing certain is that it is expensive to operate any such system.

Our system is still cheaper than the American one, from the last figures I have seen.

Given that our system has a centralized payout system, it's pretty shocking that the government can't mandate better reporting from the hospitals. It's even more shocking that the people don't demand better.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well said, the citizens have much to account for. WE let them do it, therefore we must accept at least some of the blame.

[Michael Hardner]

The people of Ontario, threw out Mike Harris in favour of Dalton McGuinty - who promised better funding of healthcare.

McGuinty's promises to reduce wait times aren't being scrutinized by the public, and in fact it's hard to tell if the wait times are being properly measured.

[bush_cheney2004]

Our system is still cheaper than the American one, from the last figures I have seen.

True, however, for nations with single payer systems with universal access, it is the most expensive.

Given that our system has a centralized payout system, it's pretty shocking that the government can't mandate better reporting from the hospitals. It's even more shocking that the people don't demand better.

Paying is far different than providing services.

[Smallc]

CIHI says that wait times are shrinking. I think I'll believe them...and those reports on US stats conflict with others. It's all a matter of whose doing the numbers I suppose.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Smallc

[Michael Hardner]

CIHI still didn't have all wait time metrics last time I checked. Time to check again.

[bush_cheney2004]

CIHI says that wait times are shrinking. I think I'll believe them...and those reports on US stats conflict with others. It's all a matter of whose doing the numbers I suppose.

U.S. stats don't matter except as a political diversion from serious problems that plague Canada's universal access system, something that is not a goal in the US. As discussed before, Canadians of means jump the queue when they want.

[Smallc]

And as shown by CIHI, things are getting better, and less people need to jump the cue. Stats on accidental deaths in facility have little to do with wait times anyway. The point of the comparison was to show that it is a problem that plagues many countries, not just Canada, and that human error is very hard to overcome. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try and that we aren't trying, but it's still difficult.

[xul]

Medical errors killing up to 24,000 Canadians a year

There is a article says smoking kill 3,000 Canadian each year,Second-hand smoke kills: let’s clear the air

According to Physicians for a Smoke-free Canada, over 3,000 Canadians are killed by second-hand smoke each year

and this Canadian governmental website says, Smoking Kills 45,000 each year.

Every year more than 45,000 Canadians die as a result of disease and illness caused by tobacco use.

I bet such "research reports" were just made by this way:

(In the funeral of a dead, the first researcher came,)

Researcher_1: Was the dead a smorker?

The son of dead: Yes, but...

The researcher turned around and recorded on his report: another death case caused by smorking....

(after the first researcher left, the second researcher came,)

Researcher_2: Was the dead a drunk?

The widow of dead: Yes, but...

The researcher turned around and recorded on his report: another death case caused by drink....

(after the second researcher left, the third researcher came,)

Researcher_3: Were there some medical errors during his treatment?

The nurse of dead: Yes, when he was in hospital as a terminal cancer patient, I once overdosed his vitamin pills. The doctor prescribed 3 pills a day but someday I give him 4 pills, but...

The researcher turned around and recorded on his report: another death case caused by medical errors....

If we add all these death in these reports up we'll conclude that Canada needs 30 million immigrants each year because all Canadian has died...

I think, we need change, we need to change laws.

The hospital is unable to comment on any patient information due to confidentiality legislation.

Hospital also refuse to give the report prepared by U of T professor to the victim family.

I think in many similar cases, the facts were hide, so that the unqualified doctors can still earn money with their oganizations.

I think we need to abolish the related laws so that such kind of facts can be known by public.

The laws that provent public to know unqualified doctors should be abolished.

The laws that help hospitals to hide the fact should be abolished.

Politicians for one, they are exposed under the spotlight all the time, but no evidence shows politicians are more error-free than doctors.

The laws prevent immigrants to be a doctor or open their private hospital should be abolished so that they can compete with the existing hospitals. They can be shut after they cause problem. I think they will not cause more problems than the existing system that kills one Canadian out of every 300 in 10 years.

I have not doubt that there are some kind of job protectionism in all kind of occupations across this country. But this is not the only cause that some employers is cautious to hire immigrants doing professional jobs. Just imagine if you were the owner of a hospital and the law had been mended to allow you hiring freely, would you hire an immigrant doctor from a country you didn't know very well?(that meat you had no way to verify his ability or skill on his profession) Wouldn't you consider anything such as if he made some medical error you would be sued by patients and lawyers just for you were too credulous in his unverifiable professional resume? So even if you were an open-mind employer, you might also want he past some professional examinations first, and unfortunately the only ones who have the authority to hold such examination in Canada is his fellow Canadian doctors, or let us speak it frankly, his further competitors.

If the law enforced Chinatown's restaurants's dishwashers a $20/h wage, they might also form an union to keep outsiders out.

I'm not saying the system is not faulty. I'm just saying that mending the system is not as easy as making some wise new policies and laws. Any amendment of the system needs sacrifice and painful self-adjustment. The doctor-lacking issue for one, the solution is plain and simple---the indigenous doctors need less protectionism, the immigrant doctors needs more effort less complaint to meet the local perfessional criterion, and the would-be doctors, the kids, needs studying hard to meet the medical school enroll criterion, and patients need to learn more medical knowledge before decided to sue the doctors fruitlessly. Plain hardworking always exceeds smarty laziness. If anyone who truely knows the cause that NATO's formidable-looking force is unwinable in the war against Taliban's tribe army, he will also know how to tackle the fault of the system and make Canada winable in the future economical battle field of this miserable world.

Edited May 25, 2009 by xul

[bjre]

There is a article says smoking kill 3,000 Canadian each year,

Because smoking can kill you, Medical error kill you is OK?

Politicians for one, they are exposed under the spotlight all the time, but no evidence shows politicians are more error-free than doctors.

Because politicians can also make mistakes, Medical error kill you is OK?

[bjre]

The point of the comparison was to show that it is a problem that plagues many countries, not just Canada,

Yes, other country has more or less the similar problem.

But aren't politicians ask Canadians to proud of being a Canadian?

If all problems other countries have becomes the reason Canada shall also have, what will your proud come from?

What make Canada better?

Should medical care be one of the advantages?

Do you think if you should care about the health of your family members? Or at least, do you think if you should care about your own health? Are you so sure you will never go to hospital in your whole life?

and that human error is very hard to overcome. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try and that we aren't trying, but it's still difficult.

That is why we need some mechanism to avoid as many error as possible. Enterprise has Quality Assurance department. Consumers can decide themselves what kind of product they will buy.

But for hospitals, we have no choice, we have to find a family doctor to wait one hour every time visit them. we have to wait 8 hours in the emergency department no matter which hospital in Toronto you choose. And many people just don't know the doctors they trust can make so many preventable errors.

The current situation of hospital is decide by laws. Only laws can change it.

* public should have right to know the truth of the error made by hospital and doctors

* doctors that easy to make mistake should quit and do other low risk jobs.

* more doctors should be provide to meet increasingly demand of the service.

* competition is the reason makes capitalism develop faster and better than other system, Lack of competition makes business earn more money by provide bad service and poor product. This is the real reason of the problem of the system. They just sit there and ask more and more money from tax payers because they are protected by laws.

Actually. it is an attitude, is hospital willing to make efforts to reduce their errors?

Do politicians care about the life of Canadians?

Are they going to make some real steps or just talk to cheat public through media?

Are you care about health of yourself?

Edited May 25, 2009 by bjre

[Smallc]

But for hospitals, we have no choice,

I don't know about you, but I can go to any hospital in the province....if I don't like where I'm being sent for a procedure, I can ask to go somewhere else. Also, you won't always have to wait 8 hours in emergency. I've waited between no time and a few hours. It all depends on when and where you go. Lastly, family doctors don't work out of Hospitals for the most part.

Never anywhere did I say that we shouldn't try to make things better, but I don't buy the constant doom and gloom that everyone spreads about....well....everything.

[bjre]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Survey shows 30% Canadians report medical errors:

When it comes to the rate of medical errors, a new survey has found Canada performs dismally in a number of key areas, ranking second only to the United States.

According to a new survey by the Commonwealth Fund, 30 per cent of Canadian patients received wrong medication, improper treatment or incorrect or delayed test results during the last two years.

Edited May 25, 2009 by bjre