Army Guy Posted May 21, 2009 Report Posted May 21, 2009 I do not portray them as such, nor do I believe they are stupid, so you stop putting words in my mouth. If we do nothing to help the 1 million or so refugees, if they are instead helped by a group that supports islamic fundamentalism, ie. the Home-boys who already live there, what will happen? Those people will say, "We are here to help you, to protect you from the infidel westerners who drove you out of your homes." Then we lose the war of ideas. The above statement you clearly paint the picture that these people are incapable of coming to the conclusion by themselfs on who or what is forcing them from thier homes.....they already know....it is the Taliban...There are no western forces involved.....Had the Taliban not moved into the area, the Pakistan army would not been forced to eject them.... As for knowing why this war started, if your trying to say that the civilians are on the governments side, I doubt it. When I read that 10,000 supporters in the swat valley came to hear the local cleric give a speech, saying that democracy is anti-islamic, I think that story speaks for itself. Read the history of the area....Most of the Swat valley, is in Taliban hands, under taliban rule, and the people will think what ever they are told....most of this area along other Pakistan border areas are heavily populated with Taliban and the control these areas with an iron fist....so much so that the Pakistan army signed a truce agreement with them.... I think that story speaks for itself. As I said earlier, they did not have to run away when they were under their own sharia law. Incidentally, they are Pashtun, not Taliban as the media portrays. It's clear that the pashtun want to live by sharia law. Actually they are made up of 3 or more backgrounds or cultures, and it is controled by the Taliban which is a religious group, a way of life..... And for the average Pushtun all they want is peace....except those in the Pakistan border towns all they want is to fight and to brutally rule over Afghan...and perhaps Pakistan.... I hope so, we shall see about that. Or will it instead be stolen, diverted elsewhere by forces who don't want that aid to arrive, who would rather see them starve than get help from the west? It's happened before. This is a war of ideology, not as simple as shooting some people and then shaking hands with tribal leaders. There are many, many there who don't want our interference, in ANY way. And more each day, as resentment grows. We are just as alien to them, as they are to us Thats a crock of shit....been on any militay operations have you ? They been operating in the area for 8 years now i think the got the basics on how to fight a protracted Campaign ....and while i will agree with you there are alot opf people that don't want our help....most of them are terrorized that it will bring about a taliban reprisal.....not because we are not understood....or we are alien to them.... No, NOT regardless of what they spend the money on, this is the same foolish knee-jerk reactionary response we have seen before. Its obvious that what we want is not what they want, they couldn't care less what we want, but they'll take our money make some platitudes to keep us happy, then meanwhile quietly continue on their agenda. There are people at the highest level of government, in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, who support the fundamentalists. This just shows what a snake pit we are in. I would think that the US president has made it clear to the leader of Pakistan that the US will not see Pakistan nuk wpns program and arsenal fall into taliban hands and would do what ever is nessicary to prevent that...including invading Pakistan and taking over the ground battle....] Thats why Pakistan is now motivated to tangle with Taliban deep within Pakistan....So regardless of what Pakistan is using the aid cash for...they have thier marching orders.... You don't think that expanding their nuclear arsenal with the help of foreign aid is a problem? No i don't it is a tool that will not be used.... We've been hearing that one for about 8 years now. Looks even less likely today than it did then. Unless of course you plan on killing every single rag head. One of the major stumbling blocks was they would cross and hide in Pakistan.....well now guess what where are they going to hide/ run...don't be surprised once pakistan gets them close enough to the border regions that a US/NATO offensive operation will begin to finish the job.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Sir Bandelot Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 The above statement you clearly paint the picture that these people are incapable of coming to the conclusion by themselfs on who or what is forcing them from thier homes. I said they have come to their own conclusion... that they want islamic sharia law, not western democracy. And they did not run away from the taliban, but they are running now. Read the history of the area....Most of the Swat valley, is in Taliban hands, under taliban rule, and the people will think what ever they are told... Now who is saying they don't think for themselves? You sir! Come on... will it instead be stolen, diverted elsewhere by forces who don't want that aid to arrive, who would rather see them starve than get help from the west? It's happened before. Thats a crock of shit....been on any militay operations have you ? They been operating in the area for 8 years now i think the got the basics on how to fight a protracted Campaign ....and while i will agree with you there are alot opf people that don't want our help....most of them are terrorized that it will bring about a taliban reprisal.....not because we are not understood....or we are alien to them.... Been hearing that for a while now. Maybe the people don't want the Taliban, but they don't want us even more. My call is, they are all the Taliban. Our government calls anyone who opposes the western forces for whatever reason, Taliban. The people in swat valley are not taliban, but they would welcome them before they welcome western infidels. It is against their religion. Of course government spokesmen will speak to the contrary. What else would you expect. Again, 10,000 vocal supporters in swat valley hold a different view. And as for aid being stolen and diverted- UN says Hamas seized Gaza food aid and blankets Aid Groups Say Myanmar Food Stolen by Military Donations Diverted Food Aid For Storm Victims Rerouted And Sold At Marketplace $13 Billion in Iraq Aid Wasted Or Stolen, Ex-Investigator Says etc. I suggest we wait for another month or so and see where this is at. I hope you are right, that there will finally be some real progress. But so far every map I look at shows the Taliban rising. Troops clear out an area, then move on, then the Taliban come right back in again. They offer food and medicine to the people. Probably stolen, but I suspect that they also have financial support from outside. If you can't get the people to believe in you, its just a wasted effort. I would think that the US president has made it clear to the leader of Pakistan that the US will not see Pakistan nuk wpns program and arsenal fall into taliban hands and would do what ever is nessicary to prevent that...including invading Pakistan and taking over the ground battle....]Thats why Pakistan is now motivated to tangle with Taliban deep within Pakistan....So regardless of what Pakistan is using the aid cash for...they have thier marching orders.... And lots of aid money from the west helps grease the wheels. Quote
Army Guy Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 Taliban pushed out by locals...some incouraging news.... swat valley.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Oleg Bach Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 Taliban pushed out by locals...some incouraging news....swat valley.... Why would anyone in their right mind welcome a group in to rule the community - when the first thing they will do is throw a beating on your daughter for being a female "temptress" Quote
Army Guy Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 Benny kind of likes them.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Oleg Bach Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 Benny kind of likes them.... What - the temptress or the Taliban?.....No - these far out Islamics want to create a society that is akin to a cluster of uniformed insects...could it be that Benny is a socialist? Quote
Army Guy Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 Now who is saying they don't think for themselves? You sir! Come on... Terror is a powerful wpn....and while it does not stop you from thinking , you don't share those views with others for fear of the consquences... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
M.Dancer Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 I would be presumptuous to assume the Taliban have wide support of the people... Some accounts of the fighting suggest the people of Kalam beat back the extremists. However, several locals interviewed by phone said the Kalam residents, outgunned by the guerrillas, accepted a ceasefire late Wednesday that left a tense standoff.Local uprisings against the Taliban during the past two years have found little or no backing from the army. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/...article1147875/ Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 Mr. Saeed, who escaped to Islamabad just as the offensive started, said that he had made contact with many from Bahrain and Kalam and they feel let down by the army. He said that helicopter gunships or helicopter-borne troops should have been sent to help the Kalam residents in their fight. You would also be presumptuous to assume the people have the wide support of the Army...our side in other words. Perhaps our side doesn't like it when people take matters into their own hands. You see a lot of that througout the west too. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
myata Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 Terror is a powerful wpn....and while it does not stop you from thinking , you don't share those views with others for fear of the consquences... And of course, in the whole wide world, only we of all the people would know how to identify it, deal with it, and overcome it. Is it really the burning desire to help? Or feeling better, superior than them who won't be ever, in principle and by definition, able to help themselves? Sort out their affairs on their terms, and in their own time? And so, needing that gentle guiding hand... Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Oleg Bach Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 All Terrorism is - is the effect of being manipulated though emotion and the emotion of fear - those that are afraid of people in general are cowards - People of faith are fearless - cautious perhaps - but none the less fearless..If we are fear less there is no terror. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 No, but then we become the terrorists. As it seems most terrorists are fearless, people of faith. Quote
wulf42 Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) The battle seems to go well against the Taliban, they are being between Pakistani Army and Nato........kill em all boys!! no Taliban should be taken prisoner its time to blow these ignorant Islamic fanatics back to hell where they belong! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8065062.stm Edited May 23, 2009 by wulf42 Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 Pakistani refugee crisis perilous for government Extremists are filling needs that the government can't Mon., May 25, 2009 Pakistan - Bacha Zab, a 32-year-old fruit salesman, dodged army shelling and Taliban sniper fire to escape his native Swat Valley. But when he reached the safety of a government-run refugee camp in this northwestern Pakistani city, he was told there was no more room. Instead, for the past 16 days, Zab, his wife and their four children have been in the care of a private Islamic charity with close ties to a banned militant organization. "We are asking for help from the government, but they won't give it," Zab said. "In the government camps, there are only problems." Only a fraction of the displaced civilians are receiving assistance in government-run camps. The rest are fending for themselves or getting help from private charities, including some that are allied with the very forces the Pakistani army is fighting in Swat. Well dude I hope that aid marked "Made in USA" is going to arrive real soon. Otherwise these are just more worthless military exercises resulting only in human suffering, and increasing hatred against the west. On the "State of the Union" (CNN) show yesterday a US senator admitted that al-qaida is now "stronger than they ever have been". I say this is why. We bomb the shit out of the militants but do very little to help the collaterals. That is not in our narrow purview. Quote
JB Globe Posted June 7, 2009 Report Posted June 7, 2009 Yesterday a reporter from Al Jazeera English stated that citizens militias are being formed in the Northwest Frontier provinces in an effort to combat the Taliban and have even succeeded in ousting them from some towns. It appears that as some have speculated Pakistan is not nearly as fertile a ground for their extremism as had previously feared by some analysts. The difference between Pakistan and Afghanistan is that the former has experience with some level of democracy, even though it has been brief, and they can see that as bad as it's been in Pakistan it's better than what the Taliban are offering. In Afghanistan, they never had the chance to see what democracy is like, and given how much we're underfunding the development of a self-sustaining and stable government in that country they probably won't get that chance anytime son. If we want to make futher inroads against Taliban influence in Pakistan, the best bet is to support the efforts of reformers who have appeal across society like chief justice Iftikhar Chowdhry, who gets support from both secular lawyers and orthodox religious groups because his efforts are concerned with extending democratic justice to all sectors of society, regardless of people's income, or their ethnic or religious identity. Quote
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