The Evolutionists' Fundamentalist Preacher

[benny]

I think we can both agree you're a fruitcake

no

[DogOnPorch]

I think we can both agree you're a fruitcake

As mentioned: Nuthin' cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.

[M.Dancer]

no

Oh..you're still debating the issue?

[benny]

Oh..you're still debating the issue?

you?

[M.Dancer]

you?

No...the issue was resolved and the conclusion is you're a fruitcake

[benny]

No...the issue was resolved and the conclusion is you're a fruitcake

Bye bye then.

[DogOnPorch]

Translation: You'd get more respect around here if you didn't always post like it's a message from a Magic 8 Ball. You seem bright. Why not just say it normal rather than in Apache Code?

[Molly]

For those who are left to survive a catastrophe, the choice is to look into the empty abyss and see that life is cruel and means nothing, so leading to complete despair and even self destruction, or find a way to cope with it. Like when a loved one dies, people need a way to cope. Then they go to the church, even though they would never go at other times. For many people, this is an easier way to deal with tragedy than what the atheist philosophy has to offer. What could Dawkins possibly offer a poor mother who has lost her children? Not much I think. But Jesus has a lot to offer thats easy for her to understand, so she can go on, and make more babies. Tragedy is the birth of religion...

This paragraph does not sit well with me... probably because you particularly refer to 'a poor mother'.

I don't want to tell the stories (not all mine to tell), but I've run across too many women in particular, who, when facing tragedy/crisis, had that situation compounded (if not outright created) by their faith/religion. Examples that might fit within my list would be those who are trapped in horrific marriages/life circumstances through their faith; those whose faith demands harm to their children; those whose faith, when challenged by tragedy, is found wanting; those who take the tangent that they are being punished by their God-- that they are deserving of random tragedy...

Too many times, I've seen women who had to abandon their faith in order to begin reconstructing their lives; and too often I've seen women seek the comfort and safety of their god in a crisis, only to realize to their horror that they are, as you say, looking into the empty abyss.

Religion WAS borne from the need to control the uncontrollable/ to find security where there is none. It lives on largely as a habit- a cultural construct, a social habit- rather than a truly considered reflection of HONEST faith.

When faith is employed in lieu of other responses-- as in as a substitute for what might be more durable coping mechanisms, or as a substitute for dealing directly with the problem at hand (like praying for rain, instead of digging a well)-- it is wholly destructive.

So, as they say, there are no atheists in foxholes, but I truly wonder, at the moment of death, how many actually remain faithful believers.

Dawkins and his sort are not in the business of providing crutches and safety nets, but they do alert folks that the crutches they have in their personal stockpile might be made of rubber and cobwebs. I'd say that forewarning is worth something.

[GostHacked]

As mentioned: Nuthin' cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.

When you mentioned this before, I had the interview scene with Leon in my head. He was asked about the turtle being on it's back ... Now I click on this link and get Cleetus Spuckler crackin the turtle with a book by Leon Uris.

+5 for obscure Simpson's reference. \m/ \m/

[DogOnPorch]

When you mentioned this before, I had the interview scene with Leon in my head. He was asked about the turtle being on it's back ... Now I click on this link and get Cleetus Spuckler crackin the turtle with a book by Leon Uris.

+5 for obscure Simpson's reference. \m/ \m/

No matter our differences, Gosthacked, I'm sure you and I would be the first to be groggily waking-up from the tequila pile and then heading for Denny's

Cheers, mate.

[benny]

Religion WAS borne from the need to control the uncontrollable/ to find security where there is none. It lives on largely as a habit- a cultural construct, a social habit- rather than a truly considered reflection of HONEST faith.

We can say the same of science.

[betsy]

those whose faith demands harm to their children;

Are you talking about sects and cult followers? Like Jim Jones? Be specific.

those whose faith, when challenged by tragedy, is found wanting; those who take the tangent that they are being punished by their God-- that they are deserving of random tragedy...

Too many times, I've seen women who had to abandon their faith in order to begin reconstructing their lives; and too often I've seen women seek the comfort and safety of their god in a crisis, only to realize to their horror that they are, as you say, looking into the empty abyss.

Be specific. Are you talking about man-made religion....or God?

Religion WAS borne from the need to control the uncontrollable/

Be specific. What do you mean by "uncontrollable?"

It lives on largely as a habit- a cultural construct, a social habit- rather than a truly considered reflection of HONEST faith.

What is wrong about religion/church being all those?

Because true faith needs to be worked on! It's not just a matter of attending this "social gathering" and declaring "I believe!"

When faith is employed in lieu of other responses-- as in as a substitute for what might be more durable coping mechanisms,

For some people, faith is the most durable "coping mechanism." You may not agree with me on that nevertheless how would you know? Of course it will be difficult for you to understand that feeling that a believer feels.

What other "durable coping mechanisms" do you have in mind like let's say to a Christian woman who's left widowed?

or as a substitute for dealing directly with the problem at hand (like praying for rain, instead of digging a well)-- it is wholly destructive.

Oh give me a break! You're talking of looney tunes. C'mon....who prays for rain and just sits and wait for it to pour? Be realistic!

So, as they say, there are no atheists in foxholes, but I truly wonder, at the moment of death, how many actually remain faithful believers.

If you're talking of sudden death - like accidents - your question is valid. Didn't Christ repeatedly warn of being prepared, for death comes like a thief in the night?

But if you mean like someone who's actually dying and lucid enough to be able to do some reflecting....let me put it this way:

Death is the beginning for a believer.

Whereas to an Atheist, death means the end since you guys don't believe in the afterlife, right? So after death you rot and you're worm food and that's it! Goodbye forever and ever!

What do you think a dying Christian will prefer to cling to at the moment of death? Which would he prefer to believe? Would he prefer to call on God (even if he's doubted all through life) - just in case what the Bible say is true....or will he prefer to accept that he's just going to become fertilizer?

The question you should ask is that how many atheists in the same dying situation will suddenly scramble to make a connection with the God they've always denied! You know....just in case.

Dawkins and his sort are not in the business of providing crutches and safety nets, but they do alert folks that the crutches they have in their personal stockpile might be made of rubber and cobwebs. I'd say that forewarning is worth something.

Yes, Dawkins is in that business....providing crutches and safety nets to those who need reassurance that indeed there is no God!

Edited May 8, 2009 by betsy

[betsy]

So, as they say, there are no atheists in foxholes, but I truly wonder, at the moment of death, how many actually remain faithful believers.

Still on the subject of death, when a dying person "makes peace with himself...," to us Christians it's also known as "make peace with God."

I sincerely wonder, how does that translate to an atheist? How is it like at that moment? Can an atheist truly "make peace with himself?"

If we compare what would be the dying thoughts of an atheist and a Christian (after they'd said their goodbyes), both "making peace with himself," preparing for that moment....between the two, who's the most likely to be at peace in the moment of death?

The Christian, comforted in the knowledge of an afterlife....or the atheist more likely beset with more doubt, the question of "what ifs:" what if I'm wrong? what if there's a God?

And since there is the inevitable fear of the unknown....who feels this fear more so?

The one who has faith in God and secure in the knowledge of a resurrection....or the one who still ponders and questions, "is death really the end?" If not, "what waits on the other side?"

[GostHacked]

We can say the same of science.

Without science, your car would not work as well as it does today. Without science, you would simply not be able to live the way you do today.

So I challenge you to check all your science at the door. If that happens, you might find yourself a little naked.

Betsy

Be specific. Are you talking about man-made religion....or God?

I don't even think there is a difference. If religion is man made, then that kind of puts God question in a limbo status.

Oh give me a break! You're talking of looney tunes. C'mon....who prays for rain and just sits and wait for it to pour? Be realistic!

Most North American Natives had done just that. And I bet there are cultures out there in the world that still pray or dance to bring the rain.

If you're talking of sudden death - like accidents - your question is valid. Didn't Christ repeatedly warn of being prepared, for death comes like a thief in the night?

I think preparing for death is a waste of time. Because when you die, none of the preparation will even matter. I'd rather concentrate on the life I have now.

Death is the beginning for a believer.

Whereas to an Atheist, death means the end since you guys don't believe in the afterlife, right? So after death you rot and you're worm food and that's it! Goodbye forever and ever!

If there is something beyond this life, we will not know about it untill we die. That is the defining moment.

What do you think a dying Christian will prefer to cling to at the moment of death? Which would he prefer to believe? Would he prefer to call on God (even if he's doubted all through life) - just in case what the Bible say is true....or will he prefer to accept that he's just going to become fertilizer?

The question you should ask is that how many atheists in the same dying situation will suddenly scramble to make a connection with the God they've always denied! You know....just in case.

Do you believe in Satan??

[betsy]

Really! YOu think that laws against murder, rape and theft are "Christian." Maybe you could explain why social anthropologists have noted for years that every tribe in every part of the globe has had rules to prohibit these antisocial behaviours.

Now I hope you're not trying to take my message out of context. I said, "depending on where you live."

Our values here were derived from the Christian values - from Christian settlers.

One of the main opposition to euthanasia is for the protection of those who are vulnerable.

The handicapped and their advocates are in an uproar. They are deeply concerned and fear that this euthanisia will be abused and used to actually murder those who cannot protect themselves.

Somebody is already testing as we speak. A perfectly healthy woman whose husband is dying wants to die with him. Hah, before you know it...a dying person will want his whole family to die with him...ala-pharaoh. The whole entourage in death!

On the same token, why should we let a group turn our society upside down just because they have chips on their shoulders regarding religion?

Then why do you bring it up?

I hope you're not using the ploy of a circular discussion. I've explained to you why I brought it up....perhaps you missed that part?

Freedom of speech is not a Christian principle,and atheist ads on buses would be one of the first things to go if you and your friends got your dream of a biblically-based society.

You're speculating....

In a debate, making bold claims such as that will require a substantial back-up from a credible source.

But your okay with these prosperity gospel hucksters you shill for, getting rich!

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

Edited May 8, 2009 by betsy

[betsy]

I don't even think there is a difference. If religion is man made, then that kind of puts God question in a limbo status.

I think I better explain that by man-made religion I mean various denominations, organizations, congregations etc..,

Most North American Natives had done just that. And I bet there are cultures out there in the world that still pray or dance to bring the rain.

Oh well, for a while I though she meant in our society in the present time.

Do you believe in Satan??

Yes. I believe he exists.

[BubberMiley]

Yes. I believe he exists.

How could he just appear out of nowhere though? Something so complicated must have been designed. Or maybe he just evolved into being. He exists because he can exist. Survival of the fittest god.

[Molly]

Be specific. Are you talking about man-made religion....or God?

Yes.

(Explaining a punch line: 'God' is a subheading under 'religion'. 'Man-made' goes without saying.)

Edited May 8, 2009 by Molly

[betsy]

How could he just appear out of nowhere though? Something so complicated must have been designed. Or maybe he just evolved into being. He exists because he can exist. Survival of the fittest god.

I was answering that particular question based on my faith.

[betsy]

Yes.

(Explaining a punch line: 'God' is a subheading under 'religion'. 'Man-made' goes without saying.)

It's a good thing I explained what I meant by man-made religion. Obviously we don't have the same interpretation.

[Molly]

Obviously we don't have the same interpretation.

Pa dump BUMP!

[BubberMiley]

I was answering that particular question based on my faith.

Yeah, whatever. But ID theory doesn't really work in that it is not only unscientific, it doesn't even explain how god was designed. So they're just deferring the creation of the universe by one step. If they take the question to god's origin, everything falls apart.

[betsy]

Yeah, whatever. But ID theory doesn't really work in that it is not only unscientific, it doesn't even explain how god was designed. So they're just deferring the creation of the universe by one step. If they take the question to god's origin, everything falls apart.

How GOD was designed????

Anyway, obviously several learned people don't agree with you. I guess you haven't been following the thread, DARWIN and haven't read the whole exchanges on this thread. That's passe.

Edited May 9, 2009 by betsy

[DogOnPorch]

How many times do you pray in a day and how often does it come true? More or less than probability dictates? For example, I can pray to roll a '7' on a pair of dice...if I roll a '7' was my prayer answered?

[benny]

Without science, your car would not work as well as it does today. Without science, you would simply not be able to live the way you do today.

So I challenge you to check all your science at the door. If that happens, you might find yourself a little naked.

When I look at Gregor Johann Mendel, I can't see much difference between religion and science.

Edited May 9, 2009 by benny