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jdobbin

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Theres all kinds of music, in every era. There's always mainstream commercially produced crap. Let each person enjoy what they want. But if we are to make any kind of assessment of the validity of musical forms. we need to agree on what makes it "good". Some might say, artistic innovation, as in the creation of new sounds, new rhythms, harmonies, or what have you. An example is the jazz era, people like Miles Davis. And there's clear reasons why I pick his name amongst the others. Another way of measuring "good" is the musical virtuosity of a player. Example Charlie Parker, or a rock guitarist like Van Halen. Is there another indicator? Probably. Michael Jackson sure is popular. I think it stems partly from his image but also from the grooves he wrote, the danceable rhythms, the melodies.

Using those criteria I don't know who I can point to in todays scene and say "there it is". But I'd love to hear about it. There is no point in criticizing what people like. Everybody likes what they like, and don't like what they don't like.

Agreed! I think that where Kimmy and I part company is that from my perspective, although there has always been a great deal of pop crap, in the late 60's and early 70's I truly believe there was also so much more! That was the genesis of rock and roll. There were all kinds of songs and all kinds of artists, from Jimi Hendrix to cosmic cowboys. Once you got away from AM radio over to FM there was a HUGE selection of great material!

It just seems to me that it's the good stuff that's missing today. It would appear that the record labels took over and reduced everything to mindless pap with a quick turnover to ensure maximum profit.

It's harder to find any pearls amongst the swine! :P It all seemed to come to an end by the early 90's. Nowadays, as I said before, if I can play it it must be crap! Lots of Jonas boys but no Pearl Jam.

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Agreed! I think that where Kimmy and I part company is that from my perspective, although there has always been a great deal of pop crap, in the late 60's and early 70's I truly believe there was also so much more! That was the genesis of rock and roll. There were all kinds of songs and all kinds of artists, from Jimi Hendrix to cosmic cowboys. Once you got away from AM radio over to FM there was a HUGE selection of great material!

Are you joking...the "genesis" of Rock 'n Roll....late 60's and early 70's ?????

No way....it started far earlier in places that didn't give a damn about FM radio....because FM radio didn't exist in wide commercial form yet.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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Are you joking...the "genesis" of Rock 'n Roll....late 60's and early 70's ?????

No way....it started far earlier in places that didn't give a damn about FM radio....because FM radio didn't exist in wide commercial form yet.

It was that very low tech radio that fit in the palm of your hand - powered by a 9 volt battery - it was called the Transistor Radio..it had one band width - AM - that was it - and speaker that sounded like a bee in a tin can - every kid had one - on the beach or under his blanket at night..listening - FM radio came along - they broadcast not one singnal but TWO - at the same time - you could have left track and right track - and there you go - from mono - to high fideltiy mono to STEREO - MUSIC WITH PHYISICAL DIMENSION.

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It was that very low tech radio that fit in the palm of your hand - powered by a 9 volt battery - it was called the Transistor Radio..it had one band width - AM - that was it - and speaker that sounded like a bee in a tin can...

That's right...and the roots of Rock n' Roll go way back to the poor people who had no idea what a goddamn transitor was. AM radio was very important...because it was in cars....and we all know how important that was. The FM stereophiles we too busy dicking with de-emphasis and 19KHz sub-carriers to know when it really started.

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That's right...and the roots of Rock n' Roll go way back to the poor people who had no idea what a goddamn transitor was. AM radio was very important...because it was in cars....and we all know how important that was. The FM stereophiles we too busy dicking with de-emphasis and 19KHz sub-carriers to know when it really started.

And listening to dead peoples music - classical.

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Are you joking...the "genesis" of Rock 'n Roll....late 60's and early 70's ?????

No way....it started far earlier in places that didn't give a damn about FM radio....because FM radio didn't exist in wide commercial form yet.

You're right! Bad choice of word, on my part!

It started in the early 50's, likely in Chicago at 'house rent parties', or in Kansas City with Joe Turner. He wrote 'Shake, Rattle and Roll', after all. Bill Haley turned it into white man's rock.

Or Roy Brown, who gave us 'Good Rockin' Tonight!' It was later covered by Elvis Presley, Sammy Hagar when he started out singing for Montrose, and a host of others.

I guess I should have said that it was in the late 60's and early 70's when rock and roll hit it's adolescence. Those were the 'teenage years' when you have tons of energy and creativity. It was then that we had a veritable explosion of new forms of rock. Sometimes it was driven by the 'suits' and from them we got Kimmy's lists. In my world it was driven by the artists. The suits ran after them playing catchup!

Sadly, by the end of the 70's it appeared that the 'suits' virtually controlled it all. As Austin Powers said about the 80's: "There was a flock of seagulls and that was about it!"

We did have Pearl Jam and Van Halen in their prime, so it wasn't a total loss.

Maybe I should have referred to a quote from the character 'Willy Brown' in the movie 'CrossRoads', who said: "It was Muddy Waters who discovered 'lectricity!"

Edited by Wild Bill
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You're right! Bad choice of word, on my part!

It started in the early 50's, likely in Chicago at 'house rent parties', or in Kansas City with Joe Turner. He wrote 'Shake, Rattle and Roll', after all. Bill Haley turned it into white man's rock.

Or Roy Brown, who gave us 'Good Rockin' Tonight!' It was later covered by Elvis Presley, Sammy Hagar when he started out singing for Montrose, and a host of others.

I guess I should have said that it was in the late 60's and early 70's when rock and roll hit it's adolescence. Those were the 'teenage years' when you have tons of energy and creativity. It was then that we had a veritable explosion of new forms of rock. Sometimes it was driven by the 'suits' and from them we got Kimmy's lists. In my world it was driven by the artists. The suits ran after them playing catchup!

Sadly, by the end of the 70's it appeared that the 'suits' virtually controlled it all. As Austin Powers said about the 80's: "There was a flock of seagulls and that was about it!"

We did have Pearl Jam and Van Halen in their prime, so it wasn't a total loss.

Maybe I should have referred to a quote from the character 'Willy Brown' in the movie 'CrossRoads', who said: "It was Muddy Waters who discovered 'lectricity!"

It was Muddy who inspired me to go electric.. you sure know your stuff..looks like you and BC would have a lot of fun listening to tunes and drinking Jack..

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.....I guess I should have said that it was in the late 60's and early 70's when rock and roll hit it's adolescence. Those were the 'teenage years' when you have tons of energy and creativity. It was then that we had a veritable explosion of new forms of rock. Sometimes it was driven by the 'suits' and from them we got Kimmy's lists. In my world it was driven by the artists. The suits ran after them playing catchup!

I don't have a problem with artists, but when they decide to take the money, suits, managers, and producers begin to dominate the scene and "product". A "record deal" means selling your artistic soul to the devil, just as in "Crossroads".

Dick Clark televised "Bandstand" from Philly when I was a young lad, so we got to see the transition and corruption way up close....my old man damn well knew the difference between "artist" and "entertainer". There are a lot of palms to be greased in that nasty business.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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Don't like to sound brutal - but a month ago - I saw this up and coming producer slip a bag of coke to a young up and coming jazz guitarist - The guitar players grand father did arrangements for Sinatra - the kid has good genes - but is frail - The coke pushing producer..who gave the shit to the kid for "his birthday" looked at me with hate - because he knows I know he has no talent and I do not approve of manipulating artists with dope- that guarentees failure of health and career. If it was legal - I would smack the guy with a crow bar....jeeezzz - don't they know what works and what does not...Frankly I do believe there are people in the buisness who's primary purpose is to destroy the angels carrying the gifts.

There is a hate in the buisness - those that will never succeed..go out of their way to make sure other do not also---That's what I find difficult dealing with my youngest - who is a talented recordist and writer.....he will never amount ot a hill of empty soda cans if he does not listen to me...I know who is who and who is not ---half his circle are good older players in their mid 20s who care and protect him - the other half are parasistes who suck his blood and he does not know it yet---to bad...you just can't press a button and make some disappear - those who are wannabes and posers..who infect the buisness - and the worst part - these pricks of usery with minimum ability will have success while genius is displaced and tossed aside.

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.... the other half are parasistes who suck his blood and he does not know it yet---to bad...you just can't press a button and make some disappear - those who are wannabes and posers..who infect the buisness - and the worst part - these pricks of usery with minimum ability will have success while genius is displaced and tossed aside.

You are spot on 'Bro....it's a damn shame. I got a PhD in booze, strippers, drug addicts, tax evasion, mobsters, handguns, prostitution, pawn shops, and broken down tour buses by age 10.

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You are spot on 'Bro....it's a damn shame. I got a PhD in booze, strippers, drug addicts, tax evasion, mobsters, handguns, prostitution, pawn shops, and broken down tour buses by age 10.

I love your dad......and you love him ....what a great life....I am sure you have no regrets - guys like him do their best and they never bowed once as a slave..great history my friend..stand proud that you had a father that was a man! I feel a blues tune coming on... :rolleyes:

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I love your dad......and you love him ....what a great life....I am sure you have no regrets - guys like him do their best and they never bowed once as a slave..great history my friend..stand proud that you had a father that was a man! I feel a blues tune coming on... :rolleyes:

Oh yeah....a great blues tune is in there somewhere. Most people nowadays have never experienced a really sleazy pawn shop, but I loved to go. So many guitars, amplifiers, horns, power tools, and guns...lots of guns. Pawn shops back then had a distinctive smell and clientele. My old man was a sucker for Ampeg gear and tape recorders.....he taped all his gigs and I still have 'em...there is a life to 60 year old audio tape recordings that is hard to explain. One is from Newfoundland AFB in the '50s...the troops needed entertainment from back when the UK gave away bases for cash (WW2).

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Oh yeah....a great blues tune is in there somewhere. Most people nowadays have never experienced a really sleazy pawn shop, but I loved to go. So many guitars, amplifiers, horns, power tools, and guns...lots of guns. Pawn shops back then had a distinctive smell and clientele. My old man was a sucker for Ampeg gear and tape recorders.....he taped all his gigs and I still have 'em...there is a life to 60 year old audio tape recordings that is hard to explain. One is from Newfoundland AFB in the '50s...the troops needed entertainment from back when the UK gave away bases for cash (WW2).

Every master and reel to reel - every cassette is archived - all lyrics typed and long hand - all stored - the kid has......digitized some.....and I am not finished yet - Your dad sounds like the real deal - higher on the entertainment food chain than I - just the infamous..with the rep of being firey and unpredictable -not to mention to much former drunk dialing to important people....Ampeg...? Yah_ I used to pawn and take out loans - then one year I simply forgot and lost the instrument - It's so urbanly cool to lean into the pawn stall and listen to the rich lady next to you sell her diamond ring - or the kid....with a bad stero - looking to get some rent money - or the hooker - who is hooked...selling something she stole out of the pocket of a John.. The kid's equippent is slowly disappearing - If I find that one of his "friend" borrowed stuff...I will might just cause some deviation of the septum - and shut off the "friends" powder shoot...not a lot has changed --- the young ones are still up to the same old tricks.

My dad who was a former red army officer said this when I told him I wanted to play "Son all musicians become drunks and dope addicts" He was out of the 30s - and you know BC - he was not far off...

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Every master and reel to reel - every cassette is archived - all lyrics typed and long hand - all stored - the kid has......digitized some.....and I am not finished yet - Your dad sounds like the real deal - higher on the entertainment food chain than I - just the infamous..with the rep of being firey and unpredictable -not to mention to much former drunk dialing to important people

You have to do it...it is very important. Dub your tracks to CDs or DVDs and give them to family....you will be immortal! Audio is more important than film, it has more life and soul. I got an Otari 5050 BIII on ebay for $200 and dubbed all that old acetate tape to digital before it turns to dust.

....Ampeg...? Yah_ I used to pawn and take out loans - then one year I simply forgot and lost the instrument - It's so urbanly cool to lean into the pawn stall and listen to the rich lady next to you sell her diamond ring - or the kid....with a bad stero - looking to get some rent money - or the hooker - who is hooked...selling something she stole out of the pocket of a John.. The kid's equippent is slowly disappearing - If I find that one of his "friend" borrowed stuff...I will might just cause some deviation of the septum - and shut off the "friends" powder shoot...not a lot has changed --- the young ones are still up to the same old tricks.

Sweet...you know of what I speak. There is no better a snapshot of humanity and desperate circumstances than a pawn shop. Pawns shops are where dreams went to die and new ones are born.

My dad who was a former red army officer said this when I told him I wanted to play "Son all musicians become drunks and dope addicts" He was out of the 30s - and you know BC - he was not far off...

He was wise indeed....that's why I became an engineer. My fingertips never calloused enough to dull the pain of guitar strings on an old Epiphone. I knew it was an easy way to get laid, but not pay the bills.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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Muddy Waters was a lot of people's "dad". ;)

We should all have been so lucky! Of course, Muddy did try to spread himself around... :lol:

I agree on the pawn shops. In my town, they just don't seem to be the same anymore. Blame EBay, I guess.

I find the same atmosphere in shabby blues clubs. I haven't smoked in years but I miss the cigarette haze. Even after I had quit and we still had separate areas I used to sit with the smokers. I found them to be more comfortable people. The non-smokers tended to be a preachy, cheerless bunch.

I think what we're describing here is an appreciation for what is real and down to earth, rather than 'glitzy' or 'plastic'. That's why I take KISS over the Jonas Brothers, and to be truthful, a whole passle of bands over KISS! Foghat, for one. Did you ever see the parody on Family Guy, where Stewie holes up in a hotel room, rolls a big joint and rocks out to a stack of Foghat records? It was a perfect spoof of my generation! :P

Ah well, as long as ABBA doesn't make a comeback life can't be all bad!

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Ah, Kimmy! Again, we seem to come from different worlds. Your list is irrelevant to me, because I literally never knew anyone who listened to it for the majority of their music!

I don't know anybody who listens to boy-bands or Britney clones either... and yet people your age seem to think that's all there is.

Agreed! I think that where Kimmy and I part company is that from my perspective, although there has always been a great deal of pop crap, in the late 60's and early 70's I truly believe there was also so much more!

Yes, that's basically the difference here.

I can look back at the 1970s and recognize that while the industry was dominated by commercial crap, there were lots of artists doing different things.

You look at the industry today and recognize the commercial crap, and think that's all there is.

Congratulations, you've turned into somebody's dad. (Red Foreman, maybe.) "Music today, it's all disco crap. When I was your age, we had real Rock And Roll! Elvis, and Bill Haley, and Buddy Holly, and..."

That was the genesis of rock and roll. There were all kinds of songs and all kinds of artists, from Jimi Hendrix to cosmic cowboys. Once you got away from AM radio over to FM there was a HUGE selection of great material!

It just seems to me that it's the good stuff that's missing today. It would appear that the record labels took over and reduced everything to mindless pap with a quick turnover to ensure maximum profit.

It's harder to find any pearls amongst the swine! :P It all seemed to come to an end by the early 90's. Nowadays, as I said before, if I can play it it must be crap! Lots of Jonas boys but no Pearl Jam.

As much as the "top 40 charts" don't represent what people were listening to in the 1970s, this "Jonas Brothers and Britney Spears" notion you're hung up on is even less representative of what people are actually listening to today.

Top 40 doesn't exist anymore, and there are 5 times as many radio stations as there used to be. And if you don't like what the radio stations in your town are playing, you can turn on your computer and stream radio stations from other cities, or from online music channels that cater to any taste imaginable.

People have an infinite amount of choice now.

Using those criteria I don't know who I can point to in todays scene and say "there it is". But I'd love to hear about it. There is no point in criticizing what people like. Everybody likes what they like, and don't like what they don't like.

That hadn't been my intent... at least not until he brought up Carole King. Using Carole King to argue that the music of the 1970s was better is like using Pauly Shore to argue that the movies of the 1990s were better. I bet that playing "It's too late baby, now, it's too late" over and over would be an excellent alternative to waterboarding. Anyway, I digress.

I'm just always amazed at the smugness when old-people talk about how much better things were back in their day. It's always amazing to me how selective peoples' memories are when they look at the past, and how their view of the present is filtered through their preconceptions.

Argus and I had a similar thread about TV... Argus argued that TV was better back in his day, because they had Archie Bunker and (...uh, I think Archie Bunker was about the extent of it...) but somehow he'd forgotten that they also had BJ And The Bear and all kinds of other laughably bad garbage that just hasn't stood up to the test of time. Unluckily, Argus couldn't argue that he and his friends were actually watching much cooler FM TV stations that played more sophisticated programs. If I recall, August and I had a similar discussion regarding movies... August looks at 1965 and recalls Dr Zhivago but forgets That Darn Cat.

The power of nostalgia is to recall the highlights of days gone by and contrast them with the run of the mill of present day.

Are you joking...the "genesis" of Rock 'n Roll....late 60's and early 70's ?????

No way....it started far earlier in places that didn't give a damn about FM radio....because FM radio didn't exist in wide commercial form yet.

Some people would probably argue that Rock 'n' Roll was already finished by the time Bill's FM radio stations emerged.

-k

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Never mind am/fm, now we have Serious satelite radio, and XM. Hardly anyone I know listens to Am or FM radio anymore. The only reason I ever turn on my radio is to listen to Coast to Coast with George Norrie, or Art Bell. The "radio" isn't really a main source for most people's music anymore, its more for talk radio, news etc.

I usually tune in Serious Faction if I want tunes, and the first place I often hear new bands or songs that I like is on Xbox games. Everyone has a special place in their heart for the music they loved when they were young, but that is just because it reminds them of the days when they were young and free from most responsibilities. Young people tend be kind of obsessive about their bands and music, and as they get older other things become more important. The music sort of represents a time in your life when you listened to it a lot, and reminds you of good times past. For me its the 80's and 90's punk and metal music, I'm sure my kids, 20 years from now will complain that the new music is all crap compared to the "classics" from the millenium decade.

Oh and for me difficulty to play has zero bearing on how "good" a band or song is. Its all about how catchy the song is, how much "fun" it is to listen to and sing along with, and how tightly it all fits together. there are lots of new and old bands that I love to crank up on my stereo. (living in the boonies, I can still get away with blasting my stereo as loud as I want, and with all the advanced in stereo technology, it even sounds way better than in years past. Subwoofers, and a kickass amp aren't just for Snoop Dogg and Dr Dre.)

Anybody still listen to T-rex? I love the guitar work on the whole Electric Warrior album. Kiss, Ac/dc, the ramones, the sex pistols, blink 182, Oasis, Ozzy Osbourne, Iron Maiden, Fallout Boy, Buck Cherry, Megadeth, Metallica, All American Rejects, the list of great bands spans the decades, and the genres.

To each their own I guess, some of the bands that I never cared for are probably some of your favorites. I never cared for zepplin, except for a few songs, like stairway to heaven and maybe 2 or 3 others. Never liked U2, or Rush. Never heard of Yes. Can't stand country music, jazz or opera. Its all a matter of taste, none is inherently better than the rest except in the ears of the listener.

There are some songs that do stand out to me as really great because you can tell the artist is really "feeling" it. Eric Clapton's "Tears in Heaven" is one such song for me, anyone have more examples of songs like that?

Edited by DrGreenthumb
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I don't know anybody who listens to boy-bands or Britney clones either... and yet people your age seem to think that's all there is.

You look at the industry today and recognize the commercial crap, and think that's all there is.

As much as the "top 40 charts" don't represent what people were listening to in the 1970s, this "Jonas Brothers and Britney Spears" notion you're hung up on is even less representative of what people are actually listening to today.

The power of nostalgia is to recall the highlights of days gone by and contrast them with the run of the mill of present day.

-k

Well, since you are one of the more 'civilized' posters on this board I do owe you fair consideration, Kimmy. :)

Could you be good enough to give me some examples of modern music or artists that I should respect?

I'll give you Wolfmother. And The Trews. If you could give me a few others that perhaps I have not heard I promise to faithfully listen to some of their stuff and try to make a fair judgement.

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There are some songs that do stand out to me as really great because you can tell the artist is really "feeling" it. Eric Clapton's "Tears in Heaven" is one such song for me, anyone have more examples of songs like that?

Some songs still send a chill up my spine. Like "Don't Fear the Reaper" by Blue Oyster Cult. Every time I hear those lyrics I feel like someone walked over my grave.

I also confess to having my eyes tear up at the Commitments version of "Try a Little Tenderness". Funny, I never used to do that until my daughters came along. Guess I'm an old softie.

Might be a fun new thread, Dr. T.! "Songs that actually provoke a deep emotional response".

The very definition of anti-pop, I would say!

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The very definition of anti-pop, I would say!

No, not really. Pop music - popular music - is not defined by being bad, or shallow, or any of that. Perhaps the vast majority of it is, but consider this: What sense does it make to say that a song that provokes a deep emotional response in most people is not popular? What exactly makes it incompatible with pop? Nothing.

There is no such thing as terrible genres; only terrible songs.

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