Jews fleeing France again

[jbg]

You too! Resurrected for another year - yep - we live! The old faith that build up good civil society and brought us peace and prosterity still lives in us after 2000 years ----- and we can not be stopped!

And another liberation story resurrected for another year started with the Jews' escape from Pharoah and the lack of swimming ability of Pharoah's troops.

[tango]

Argus did not say that all brown people are Muslim Terrorists. You did. He said "You oppose any condemnation of brown people no matter what they do"

I never said racism. I said discrimination. Muslim is not a race.

Argus generalized to "brown people" and made it about race.

Condemn somebody who does something wrong regardless of skin colour.

Don't condemn all "brown people" because of what some fanatic Muslims do.

[kimmy]

I never said racism. I said discrimination. Muslim is not a race.

Argus generalized to "brown people" and made it about race.

Condemn somebody who does something wrong regardless of skin colour.

Don't condemn all "brown people" because of what some fanatic Muslims do.

You don't understand how "brown" got into this? People are wondering if the left's compulsive need to stick up brown people is the explanation for why they're willing to overlook so much that is ugly in conservative Islam.

-k

[KrustyKidd]

I never said racism. I said discrimination. Muslim is not a race.

Argus generalized to "brown people" and made it about race.

Condemn somebody who does something wrong regardless of skin colour.

Don't condemn all "brown people" because of what some fanatic Muslims do.

Aside from rereading your constitution (which states racism as being against religion among many other things) I suggest you read the thread prior to making comments. Argus did not generalize brown people rather responded to another poster who did. The brown part meaning when the world gravitates towards one race.

QUOTE (eyeball @ Apr 12 2009, 04:16 PM) *

I for one think the world will be a far better world when everyone is brown. I bet it would be even better if everyone was a brown homosexual woman.

The only problem with that idea is the brown people think Homosexuals should all be killed - as painfully as possible.

Condemn somebody who does something wrong regardless of skin colour.

Don't condemn all "brown people" because of what some fanatic Muslims do.

Now, please provide proof that Muslims adhere to your constitution which dictates;

Tango's constitution...........

Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

Not many Muslim countries do so, we can condemn them based on fact, not rhetoric. Unless of course, most Muslim countries adhere to your constitution or, the UN definition of racism which I provided earlier.

Edited April 14, 2009 by KrustyKidd

[KrustyKidd]

You don't understand how "brown" got into this? People are wondering if the left's compulsive need to stick up brown people is the explanation for why they're willing to overlook so much that is ugly in conservative Islam.

-k

What she said Tango. You've roped a falling leaf. Get off it or, ride it to the ground.

[tango]

You don't understand how "brown" got into this? People are wondering if the left's compulsive need to stick up brown people is the explanation for why they're willing to overlook so much that is ugly in conservative Islam.

-k

no

[KrustyKidd]

no

Try reading the thread then if you are confused. I address the brown part in my second last post.

[tango]

Aside from rereading your constitution (which states racism as being against religion among many other things) I suggest you read the thread prior to making comments. Argus did not generalize brown people rather responded to another poster who did. The brown part meaning when the world gravitates towards one race.

The only problem with that idea is the brown people think Homosexuals should all be killed - as painfully as possible.

Now, please provide proof that Muslims adhere to your constitution which dictates;

Tango's constitution...........

Not many Muslim countries do so, we can condemn them based on fact, not rhetoric. Unless of course, most Muslim countries adhere to your constitution or, the UN definition of racism which I provided earlier.

Considering that I cited the Canadian Constitution, no, it does not apply to other countries.

And you make a ridiculous argument.

It's silly for tango to practice freedom from discrimination ... because some other people somewhere else don't.

And I'm supposed to take that argument seriously?

not

Go peddle your paranoia to someone who cares, eh?

[KrustyKidd]

Considering that I cited the Canadian Constitution, no, it does not apply to other countries.

You said;

What he said..........

yup! Everyone who supports the Constitution.

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

These very same principals are universal as being directed to human rights throughout the wolrd thourgh the UN definition of racism. Unless it is immature semantics on your part, the ideals contained transend countries and form a basis for humanity.

So, do you only support those who support the constitution? If so, your support network is without most Muslims.

And you make a ridiculous argument.

It's silly for tango to practice freedom from discrimination ... because some other people somewhere else don't.

And I'm supposed to take that argument seriously?

not

Go peddle your paranoia to someone who cares, eh?

I have proven you have protected those who commit racism by omission and, I only ask you to cite where others have committed racism according to your constitution. If you don't take this question seriously, then why are you here on an internet forum expecting to be taken seriously?

[Tawasakm]

You said;

What he said..........

These very same principals are universal as being directed to human rights throughout the wolrd thourgh the UN definition of racism. Unless it is immature semantics on your part, the ideals contained transend countries and form a basis for humanity.

So, do you only support those who support the constitution? If so, your support network is without most Muslims.

I have proven you have protected those who commit racism by omission and, I only ask you to cite where others have committed racism according to your constitution. If you don't take this question seriously, then why are you here on an internet forum expecting to be taken seriously?

These arguments always seem to get bogged down.

Perhaps we should change the terminology/semantics.

I can state that I am INTOLERANT (not racist) toward any ideology whose core values explicitly contradict and abrogate human rights as outlined by the UN and the democratic western civilisations. I am intolerant toward all entities which espouse (or omit to act against) any barbaric doctrine which represses the rights of women, homosexuals, minority groups and freedom of information. Any entity - that includes individuals, congregations, corporations, organisations and governments.

Some of the above mentioned repression continues to occur in the west but it is recognised and there are continued concerted efforts to correct the balance. There are places in the world where such efforts are non existent - either through genuine belief, fear of reprisal or other. There are people that move from these nations into ours. So long as they continue to hold these beliefs (or omit to act against others who hold them) then there is an increase in the pressures which maintain respression within our societies. I am intolerant toward this counterproductive trend which could delay or inhibit the freedoms we have struggled toward.

I realise that it could be argued that my views against these 'minority' groups are discriminatory since they are based on my interpretation of their belief system and how it conflicts with core western values (meaning freedom of rights). I do not believe it is discriminatory. The whole purpose of freedom of rights is to protect AGAINST these kind of belief systems! We moved away from them and toward a system that which would protect all. Its contradictory to suppose that this system should protect an ideology which fights against its fundamental goals.

Yes we should not be racist and discriminatory. We should embrace the rights and freedoms in our democracy. We should also be clear eyed. We need to remember why it was necessary to enshrine these rights and what we have been progressively moving away from. We should not embrace factors that seek to undermine these rights. We should not assume that any who seek to replace these core values with their own - which are so often genuinely discriminatory and repressive - should be protected in that pursuit. This does not mean I advocate persecution against these groups. I do mean that wherever they contradict freedom and equality of gender or other groups than they should be condemned and they should be prosecuted (to whatever extent is possible) for that attack on our rights. When people do act to protect these freedoms I find it a paradoxical proposition to name them 'racist'.

[JB Globe]

I believe the increase in anti-Jew sentiment is due to Israel's occupation and oppression and excessive violence against the Palestinians in Gaza.

You're right, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the nuclear reactor of communal tensions between Muslims and Jews. Muslims are not inherently any more anti-semetic than Christians, it's just that for the last half century a group of Jews have been politically oppressing a group of Muslims, and tension ensues. If that oppressed group happened to be Christian instead, I think the social landscape would be radically different in Western countries.

[JB Globe]

I've been posting about this stuff on this website for years. It's good to see that others are finally catching up.

Just think, in about 10 years (by the time it's too late), some lefties might actually catch on - that is, if their not doing their very best "Obama" impersonation, running around apologizing to and praising Islam.

Sorry, so you don't think this is a specifically European problem? You think that this is symptomatic of Muslim immigration everywhere? Really?

As a Canadian Jew, I have never encountered anti-semitism from someone who is Muslim, even though I've gone to mosques with my friends, been at Muslim weddings, and worked on documentaries in Mosques. If it were as pervasive as you make it seem, surely I would have encountered it by now.

[M.Dancer]

As a Canadian Jew, I have never encountered anti-semitism from someone who is Muslim, even though I've gone to mosques with my friends, been at Muslim weddings, and worked on documentaries in Mosques.

Just because they are polite, doesn't mean they aren't ignorant....as a Canadian non jew...I have encountered anti semitism by muslims....maybe not the virulent "Jews eat babies kind and are making our penises soft with chemicals in the water " type....

...more of the garden variety "jews control the world banks, governmments and media" etc etc etc....

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry, so you don't think this is a specifically European problem? You think that this is symptomatic of Muslim immigration everywhere? Really?

As a Canadian Jew, I have never encountered anti-semitism from someone who is Muslim, even though I've gone to mosques with my friends, been at Muslim weddings, and worked on documentaries in Mosques. If it were as pervasive as you make it seem, surely I would have encountered it by now.

Logical fallacy. It hasn't happened to me; therefore, it isn't happening.

Fact is, we've spent the past 1000 or so years keeping Islam out of 'The West' only to throw the gates open in the 20th-21st centuries in a fit of cultural relativism. It should be pointed out that, generally, these folks don't practice cultural relativism or multiculturalism.

Edited April 14, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[JB Globe]

Just because they are polite, doesn't mean they aren't ignorant....

I wasn't talking about politeness, I'm talking about a blatant dislike of all Jews. Muslims have strong opinions against Israel and have no problem expressing them in front of me, but I have not encountered folks with blatantly anti-semetic views who are Muslim. I know they exist, but my experiences and learned knowledge would suggest it's not as pervasive as some people in this post are making it out to be. Again, I believe it may only be slightly more of an issue than in the non-Muslim community, and the reason being the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not some inherent anti-semitism within Islam. Vice-versa with the Jewish community.

as a Canadian non jew...I have encountered anti semitism by muslims....more of the garden variety "jews control the world banks, governmments and media" etc etc etc....

I find that standard practice among ALL people though, and I don't find it to be more common than any other stereotype about any given community. ie - I find that just as many people believe "Jews control the media" as do "Italians are connected with the mafia" (my father is Italian) I think it speaks to a general lack of communication and understanding between people of different communities more than some specific issue of one community only being ignorant about one other community.

I find this also to be a generational thing, where people my age or younger generally don't subscribe as much to stereotypes in general as my parents generation does, this obviously being a result of growing up with folks from different communities, an opportunity which my parents and many of their age didn't have.

[JB Globe]

Logical fallacy. It hasn't happened to me; therefore, it isn't happening.

Actually it's:

I have intimate knowledge and connections to the community in question from a young age, I have professional experience researching the community and producing documentaries about issues pertaining to it, I have yet to see any hard data that proves any of these allegations (what will happen in France will happen here) . . .

Therefor, as far as I'm concerned, it's not happening.

You cannot expect to convince anyone with gross generalizations and a lack objective, factual, information.

People generally don't change their views on things because of someone else's "hunch" on a given issue.

Edited April 14, 2009 by JB Globe

[dub]

iranian jews in iran are less discriminated against than the israeli muslims in israel.

[Argus]

You're right, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the nuclear reactor of communal tensions between Muslims and Jews. Muslims are not inherently any more anti-semetic than Christians, it's just that for the last half century a group of Jews have been politically oppressing a group of Muslims, and tension ensues.

How would you react to a statement that the Muslims in question are no more or less oppressed than Muslims in most other Muslim countries and that, in fact, prior to the start of the Intifada, were less opressed and had better lives than most of their compatriates in the Muslim world.

[Argus]

Actually it's:

I have intimate knowledge and connections to the community in question from a young age, I have professional experience researching the community and producing documentaries about issues pertaining to it, I have yet to see any hard data that proves any of these allegations (what will happen in France will happen here) . . .

Therefor, as far as I'm concerned, it's not happening

Didn't the Star of all organizations, once send people into Mosques who could understand Arabic and report that the imams in a number of Toronto mosques were preaching hatred? I think it was Irshad Manji who also reported that, growing up, attending a Muslim school in BC, she was constantly exposed to anti-semitic messages from her teachers.

[M.Dancer]

Didn't the Star of all organizations, once send people into Mosques who could understand Arabic and report that the imams in a number of Toronto mosques were preaching hatred? I think it was Irshad Manji who also reported that, growing up, attending a Muslim school in BC, she was constantly exposed to anti-semitic messages from her teachers.

Correct

A mosque asking that Canadian workplaces respect a strict Muslim dress code is at the same time disseminating slurs against Jews and Western societies, and warning members against social integration.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/535278

[jbg]

Not many Muslim countries do so, we can condemn them based on fact, not rhetoric. Unless of course, most Muslim countries adhere to your constitution or, the UN definition of racism which I provided earlier.

I've often wondered why so many on this Board and in the media expect perfect conduct from the U.S., Canada and Israel. How many of them expect they could immigrate to a Muslim country, practice their beliefs and survive let alone be treated with enlightened equality. I am amazed that we should punish ourselves with such a double standard.

[tango]

What a silly attitude, jbg.

Somebody has to set a better example!

Would you suggest we all sink to the lowest level of human rights, just because somebody else does?

Why are we in Afghanistan again?

Edited April 14, 2009 by tango

[DogOnPorch]

What a silly attitude, jbg.

Somebody has to set a better example!

Would you suggest we all sink to the lowest level of human rights, just because somebody else does?

Why are we in Afghanistan again?

Why bother when 'leftards' are just going to let 'em all in anyways? Good and bad. Multiculturalism is a stupid, unilateral decision on our part...not our enemies'.

[Argus]

What a silly attitude, jbg.

Somebody has to set a better example!

Would you suggest we all sink to the lowest level of human rights, just because somebody else does?

Why are we in Afghanistan again?

To keep the rabble from setting up another huge terrorist training base from which they can launch attacks on our countries.

[JB Globe]

How would you react to a statement that the Muslims in question are no more or less oppressed than Muslims in most other Muslim countries and that, in fact, prior to the start of the Intifada, were less opressed and had better lives than most of their compatriates in the Muslim world.

I would reply with a quote I remember from a senior Palestinian leader in Thomas Friedman's Pulitzer-Prize winning "From Beruit to Jerusalem" from before the first Intifada - "Palestinians may not be the most brutalized people in the Middle East, but they certainly are the most humiliated."

That humiliation is one of the primary factors which caused the intifada in the first place, and something which Israelis vehemently deny takes place to this day, as illustrated by the reaction to a Condi Rice speech acknowledging the humiliation of occupation. To acknowledge that the occupation is inherently dehumanizing, would of course acknowledge that Israelis support a foreign policy which is morally bankrupt.

Of course, post-intifada the noose was tightened, and I don't think there's much separating Palestinians in general in terms of quality of life, economic, and political freedoms from the rest of the Arab world. In fact, it's worse in some cases, for example: I'm at a loss at how you can state that "the Muslims in question are no more or less oppressed than Muslims in most other countries" when we've been watching what's been going on in Gaza for the last several years. It essentially functions as a prison, after all.

But I digress, my point originally for this thread was: I'm sure anti-semitism exists in the Muslim Canadian community like it does in every community in Canada, but I don't believe it is a major problem and is only higher than average because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not some inherent anti-semitism within Islam.