14 year old Life without parole

[tango]

Nonsense....the state has a very specific responsibility to do just that. Spending so much time worrying about the "injustices" that a 14 year old perp might suffer ignores the states responsibilty to public safety and your oh so precious "justice".

Juvenile court systems are still "justice" systems whether you like them or not, particularly since you are not offering up any better idea.

A 14 year old psychotic would be in the justice system only long enough to establish mental illness.

[bush_cheney2004]

A 14 year old psychotic would be in the justice system only long enough to establish mental illness.

Nevertheless, such a finding is subordinate to the pleasure of a juvenile court and public law. That's how it works...even for our poor 14 year old perps.

[betsy]

And you have said exactly ... nothing of value.

Oh I think this kid realizes that. He's in jail for life, remember?

That has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

betsy, you are exactly the kind of gullible reader the news headlines are slanted for: You never read anything but the headlines, and you fall for the media scare-propaganda everytime!

It shows in your posts. You make gross generalizations about things you have not informed yourself about.

You don't know the real story for either of those situations, and yet you make gross generalizations of catastrophy because of "those parents who spoil their children rotten...who let their kids get away with anything"

What bullshit!

Uninformed opinion is useless at best, and at worst it is dangerous propaganda.

You rebuke me for generalizations when you invoke the blanket-sweeping classic excuses that liberal-minded bleeding hearts raise up everytime: poverty. abuse. drugs.

So don't give me that baloney!

Speaking of gross generalization which you say I do in my posts....kindly cite my posts that you talk about.

Notice how you imply with your sweeping statement I do it all the time......

So again, don't give me that baloney!

Just because I'm straightforward enough to admit that I have not read the case does not mean that what I've spouted on this topic is not relevant!

You are determined to pick this particular case...and had chosen to limit the argument fixedly on this boy alone....when in fact, according to your own source that you've posted, there are several other youngsters in jail facing the same fate.

Whether you want to continue to bury your head in the sand...and pick and choose what you want to see and address....it can't be denied, something is wrong with our system!

Edited April 14, 2009 by betsy

[tango]

Yes ... or in this state anyway ... you know, the one the thread is about.

[betsy]

A 14 year old psychotic would be in the justice system only long enough to establish mental illness.

Isn't psychosis a mental illness?

[tango]

yes

It has to be assessed and diagnosed and documented in court, where charges are pending, and treatment options proposed.

[betsy]

A 14 year old psychotic would be in the justice system only long enough to establish mental illness.

What exactly do you mean by this?

[betsy]

Yes ... or in this state anyway ... you know, the one the thread is about.

You keep insisting that we stay on topic. FYI, we are very much right on topic! We are very much with you.

You want to keep the discussion solely and fixedly on this one particular boy....but you, yourself did not abide by your own "rule." You want to limit our responses to want you want us to say...yet you can bring up contentious arguments (which obviously you don't want anybody to argue with). You want it all your way!

You are a perfect example of today's "enlightened" know-it-all, control-obsessed liberal-thinkers that actually contributed greatly to the problem we are facing right now.

Tango, in case you don't realize yet, let me say it as plainly as I can: We were following your lead.

You could've stuck to discussing just this particular case....but oh no! You pretty much opened up the door and made challenging statements by posting this one up:

Abused children often become abusers. That's the problem. Poverty, violence, drugs ... that's the problem.

What do career criminals have to do with those under 18? Again, off topic.

He wishes he could start over, but not at the beginning. He grew up in a crack house with a mother who used and sold drugs. In Lotts' case, court documents reveal that he was sexually abused as a child.

When child welfare officials took Lotts from his mother at the age of 8, they noted that he "smelled of urine and had badly decayed molars as well as numerous scars on his arms, legs and forehead."

"Quantel had a lot of anger because of all he has been through," said stepmother Tammy Lotts, 45, whose son Michael Barton was Lotts' victim. iReport.com: Sentence 'totally unfair'

At the time of the crime, Tammy Lotts said she left her children for several days with her husband to get high on crack cocaine.

"But I don't believe that Quantel did it," she added. "They took care of each other. They didn't see each other as stepbrothers; they considered them brothers."

Most young offenders serving life without parole were exposed to poverty, violence or drugs during childhood, the Equal Justice Initiative reported.

That's why some of us here have to point out the ROOT of the problems! The problems you mentioned above are just the branches that all came from a rotting root!

Edited April 14, 2009 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

You rebuke me for generalizations when you invoke the blanket-sweeping classic excuses that liberal-minded bleeding hearts raise up everytime: poverty. abuse. drugs.

What did Jesus Christ think of liberal-minded bleeding hearts?

Oh, wait, he was one.

[betsy]

That's why some of us here have to point out the ROOT of the problems! The problems you mentioned above are just the branches that all came from a rotting root!

Furthermore, we've added the impact of broken homes to youths as another of those branches (problems)....which of course you refused to acknowledge and even went as far as dismissing it as "out of topic!" Really!

Talk about being mis-informed!

[eyeball]

Isn't psychosis a mental illness?

Its certainly a symptom of mental illness, but in the minds of many Canadians being mentally ill is usually the person's fault. With attitudes like this its easy to see why so many people get so cavalier about throwing 14 year olds into prison for life without parole.

Why? The only conclusion I can come to is they're just plain mean and they want a justice system that reflects the smug outlook they have on life.

Edited April 14, 2009 by eyeball

[betsy]

What did Jesus Christ think of liberal-minded bleeding hearts?

Oh, wait, he was one.

He can't be a liberal in the modern day sense....He didn't change the rules to suit the moment! His rules are universal, consistent and enduring....doesn't sound very liberal, does it?

Besides, He's got common sense!

[betsy]

... but in the minds of many Canadians being mentally ill is usually the person's fault.

You must have a reputable source to back up this claim, otherwise you wouldn't be so stout enough to claim of knowing many Canadians think that mental illness is usually the person's fault.

Back it up! Reputable sources only! Your neighbor's collaboration does not count.

Not even a confession that you can read minds is acceptable.

Edited April 14, 2009 by betsy

[tango]

You keep insisting that we stay on topic. FYI, we are very much right on topic! We are very much with you.

You want to keep the discussion solely and fixedly on this one particular boy....but you, yourself did not abide by your own "rule." You want to limit our responses to want you want us to say...yet you can bring up contentious arguments (which obviously you don't want anybody to argue with). You want it all your way!

You are a perfect example of today's "enlightened" know-it-all, control-obsessed liberal-thinkers that actually contributed greatly to the problem we are facing right now.

Tango, in case you don't realize yet, let me say it as plainly as I can: We were following your lead.

You could've stuck to discussing just this particular case....but oh no! You pretty much opened up the door and made challenging statements by posting this one up:

That's why some of us here have to point out the ROOT of the problems! The problems you mentioned above are just the branches that all came from a rotting root!

betsy, that quote is from an article about Quantel Lotts, on whom the thread is based.

Edited April 14, 2009 by tango

[betsy]

betsy, that quote is from an article about Quantel Lotts, on whom the thread is based.

You made this statement, supporting and reiterating what was said on that article. You posted that article right after your statement on Post #4.

Abused children often become abusers. That's the problem. Poverty, violence, drugs ... that's the problem.

I have no problem about you voicing out your opinion, or posting that article. I am just pointing out to you why the arguments and discussion on this topic cannot just be confined on Quantel Lotts alone.

[eyeball]

...in the minds of many Canadians being mentally ill is usually the person's fault.

You must have a reputable source to back up this claim, otherwise you wouldn't be so stout enough to claim of knowing many Canadians think that mental illness is usually the person's fault.

Back it up! Reputable sources only! Your neighbor's collaboration does not count.

Not even a confession that you can read minds is acceptable.

MONTREAL, Aug. 18 /CNW Telbec/ - The Canadian Medical Association (CMA)

today released its eighth annual National Report Card on Health Care in

Canada, focusing on both access to health care services and mental health care

in Canada.

The CMA's National Report Card on Health Care measures public opinion

gathered by Ipsos-Reid to paint a portrait of Canadians' attitudes and

experiences with the health care system. The Report Card is a key part of the

CMA's commitment to Canadians to track access to care and government action on

the health care system.

"This year's report card shines a harsh, and frankly unflattering, light

on the attitudes we Canadians have concerning mental health," said CMA

President, Dr. Brian Day. "In some ways, mental illness is the final frontier

of socially-acceptable discrimination. Can you imagine the public uproar if

mental health was replaced with race, gender or religion?"

<<

The survey found:

- Almost half of Canadians (46%) think people use the term mental illness

as an excuse for bad behaviour;

Source

As I said when this many Canadians display this much ignorance about mental health it is no surprise to me that so many are just fine with the idea of throwing kids into prison with no hope of parole. I'd be willing to bet $100, no.... make that $1000, that most of the 46% of people the CMA study cites above are Harper Conservatives. I've gone up against this 'majority' where I live when its raised its ugly head and beaked off about chasing the mentally ill and addicted out of town, I know exactly what type of person and voter I'm dealing with. These sorts of numbers make me nervously question the wisdom of calling for more democracy in Canada. Its easy to see why issues like criminal justice will always be best left to experts that include judges, doctors, ethicists and other highly trained intelligent professionals - elites, as I suppose the vindictive herd of dinosaurs that likes to pass itself off as Canada's conservative 'majority' would call them.

[M.Dancer]

...in the minds of many Canadians being mentally ill is usually the person's fault.

- Almost half of Canadians (46%) think people use the term mental illness

as an excuse for bad behaviour;

Is completely different to what you claimed.

[eyeball]

MONTREAL — Almost half of Canadians believe that a diagnosis of mental illness is merely an "excuse for poor behaviour and personal failings" and one in 10 thinks that people with mental illness could "just snap out of it if they wanted," according to the startling findings of a new opinion poll.

Globe & Mail

"There's a sense of blame, families feel responsible and that it's their fault," he said. "There's still a huge general discomfort. It's an issue that has been in the shadows for generations and generations."

The Star

Nearly one in two Canadians believes mental illness isn't always "real" but a cop out for bad behaviour and personal weakness and attitudes toward people with addictions border almost on religious judgment, a new national survey shows.

Ottawa Citizen

I think its pretty clear that the above sources are saying very much the same thing I am - that in the minds of many Canadians being mentally ill is usually the person's fault. You can also check out what the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health have to say about stigma and misperceptions about mental illness.

Commonly held misconceptions of people with mental illness include the following:

People with mental illness are all potentially violent and dangerous.

People with mental illness are somehow responsible for their condition.

People with mental illness have nothing positive to contribute.

Source

[M.Dancer]

I think its pretty clear that the above sources are saying very much the same thing I am - that in the minds of many Canadians being mentally ill is usually the person's fault.

There is a huge difference between saying that illness is someone's fault and saying that some use illnes as an excuse for their bad behavior

You can also check out what the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health have to say about stigma and misperceptions about mental illness.

Yet no source or cite for their "common" misconception...which isn't really a misconception...starting an addiction is a choice, you choose to smoke, drink, gamble, shoot up...

[eyeball]

There is a huge difference between saying that illness is someone's fault and saying that some use illnes as an excuse for their bad behavior

Really? I suppose the type of person who would arbitrarily and even happily let public attitudes dictate how the state should dispense justice, to kids for example, would quibble over verbiage like this.

starting an addiction is a choice, you choose to smoke, drink, gamble, shoot up

Would using mental illness as an excuse for bad behaviour also be a choice? I think the law should say as it does, that mental illness is not a choice that its actually a defence as opposed to an excuse. There's a real huge difference for you.

[M.Dancer]

Would using mental illness as an excuse for bad behaviour also be a choice?

Yes of course...the nuance which you seem not clever enough to follow is that people believe, no doubt in some cases correctly, that not everyone who claims they acted a certain way because they are sick are indeed sick.

I think the law should say as it does, that mental illness is not a choice that its actually a defence as opposed to an excuse. There's a real huge difference for you.

It seems what you think and what you know are miles apart. There is a mental illnes defense but it is not granted willy nilly to every miscreant who claims it.

They actually must prove first the person is sick.

[betsy]

...in the minds of many Canadians being mentally ill is usually the person's fault.

Is the handle "EYEBALL," a combination of: The Third EYE and Crystal BALL?

ha-ha-ha

ha-ha-ha

[BubberMiley]

He can't be a liberal in the modern day sense....He didn't change the rules to suit the moment! His rules are universal, consistent and enduring....doesn't sound very liberal, does it?

Wait till you get to the money-changers part. You'll be looking for a messiah who's shares your contempt for humanity by then.

[M.Dancer]

Wait till you get to the money-changers part. You'll be looking for a messiah who's shares your contempt for humanity by then.

Most people don't know either the context of that event of the true significance...suffice to say it had nothing to do with either capitalism or socialism.

[betsy]

Wait till you get to the money-changers part. You'll be looking for a messiah who's shares your contempt for humanity by then.

Hey, you were the one who brought on Jesus to this topic. I played along with your little joke. How do I know you're going to latch on to it? This isn't about Jesus. Boy, we're not even on the Religion site....we're on Politics (United States).

You thirst.

You are looking for the Messiah....you just don't know it yet.

Okay, back on topic now. Enough!