NDP upset with Chinese made Ontario flags

[Argus]

Don't forget to claim it with the big reno TAX CREDIT

Alas, the work came too early. But don't worry, I'm planning a big garden project with a waterfall and pond, and it all qualifies!

Its a wonder that people don't appreciate government bureacrats.

Oh I'm MUCH more pleasant than I was when I was working in the private sector! It's the years of lazing around the office, chatting and sipping wine, the relaxing long weekends, short work hours, lack of pressure, big salaries. It's all so... calming.

Its people like you who support purchasing our flags offshore.

I try to buy everthing from China or North Korea, especially if it's made by slave labour, cause it's cheaper then.

[madmax]

I try to buy everthing from China or North Korea, especially if it's made by slave labour, cause it's cheaper then.

North Korea?

IIRC North Koreans can't grow grass, but they can make a good missile.

That explains why you speak like "Fearless Leader"

North Korea it is

[Army Guy]

I have witnessed recruiters spewing propaganda. I'm nto assuming anything. At worst, I'm taking someone else's word for it. It wasn't my child, it was Dr. Greenthumb's. If he felt it was propaganda, who am I to judge?

Then approach the recruiter, and ask him the tough questions, get him to show you the beef so to speak....

You're right. I should have spoken better there. However, I did not say it ONLY provides those opportunities to disadvantaged youth. It is however, the only thing I mentioned. Thank you for clarifying that, but the military does in fact offer opportunity to people who have very little opportunities does it not?

Everything is dependent on an IQ and Aptitude tests, the are scored and rated regionally and nationally, those with the best scores will recieve call backs, of course there is a different minimum score required for each job and trade...No where on your appication is there any mention of where you came from, which side of the tracks....etc etc...everything is based on test results, and yes of course your medical results....

And that is why Dr Greenthumb has every right to not want his children being recruited for the military, or have them participate in recruitment sessions of any kind. His kids, his determination. if he thinks it's propaganda, it doesn't matter what you or I think. It is not a personal attack on you.

I agree he should have a say, that being said our education board and system has to remain as unbiased as possiable, for if MR Greenthumb did not like a certain race, color, creed, or in this case occupation, then MR Green would have to show more undwerstanding...and if he wanted to further his childrens education while in his home he is free to do so....but at school that is another story....within reason...

Before, or after they join?

I get the opinion you seem to think that our nations military has to resort in to conning or tricking our young people into joining...not so...we have just recently went into recession, and yes more will be looking for work, but all that means is the quality of people will increase, not the numbers recruited....we just don't have the place to train them....

Our recruits are free to quit any timee during the recruiting process, after that you sign a contract...like any other company...to get into a WAR zone first you must have completed minimum of 2 years training, only the rare exception is made....next you must be a volunteer...

With all that training and knowledge it would be imposiable for any indiv to wake up one morning in a combat zone and shout this is not what i signed up for....

Those new military ads on TV Fight fear, fight Caus, fight with the Canadian forces....in those 30 short seconds it gives you a clear picture of what you'll be doing depending on your trade. one day you might find your self in Afghan on a combat mission, the next day fighting floods or doing a rescue from a helo....yes there is no blood and gore, it's for TV, and the rating is g, perhaps if you want the full meal deal then watch entire shows like Combat School which i heard should be aired pretty soon...this is what we do for a living....and we are not the big brutes and thugs we are made out to be....but rather average Canadians that see the world as it is and not sugared coated....

I'm sorry for getting emotional, but not only is it what i do it is what i live 24 hours a day 7 days a week....don't fear something you don't understand, learn and study it...after that you have every right to call me what ever it is you want....

[Oleg Bach]

Don't fear what you do not understand? That is the key..It is an ancient concept - "Young men you are strong for you have mastered evil" _ that is such a good bit of advice - Learn and study evil and all of it's manifestations ---understand what it is - and then you can be wisely fearless..It does not mean to practice evil - but to know the enemy within and without. How are you doing Army Guy? So when in your estimation is our commander and chief really going to give some full and calculated thought to this affair in Afghanistan? I hate to see another clean cut kid getting blown to shreds or lose a leg...our mode of operation is all wrong...How can these guys consistantly pick off our troops..without engaging them...IEDs ....Why can we not counter them and make our movements unpredictable - I thought our military transport was all terrain - Why do they stick to using the roads and making themselves road kill? There must be a better way to get around..maybe go around ?

[Randy Nicholas]

Army Guy - the problem here is that you are assuming I don't understand the military, or that I fear it. That's insane. The military is necessary and important, and everyone with the stones to involve themselves gets my upmost respect. it is true I don't have the same intimate understanding as someone who lives the experience 24 hours a day, but that does not make me ignorant or afraid.

I didn't even enter this argument on the side of anti-military - my argument was that dr. Greenthumb and only dr. greenthumb can determine what is appropriate for his/her children. If he/she feels that strongly about it, then notice of the event should be given, and there should be no need to fear the press. If there isn't anything wrong going on, then why, according to Dr. Greenthumb, did they do it in secret and on short notice?

That appears fishy to me. But it doesn't mean that I haven't read hundreds of books and studied our nation's history at University. We can't all of us be in the military. You and I have different experiences leading to different opinions.

I still think it was wrong for you to get emotional and attack Dr. Greenthumb for his opinion, because it does not say in his post that he detests the military - that is something you assumed.

[guyser]

then watch entire shows like Combat School which i heard should be aired pretty soon...this is what we do for a living....and we are not the big brutes and thugs we are made out to be....but rather average Canadians that see the world as it is and not sugared coated....

It was on last night and I watched most of it.

I did not have the impression that the training was like that. I enjoyed it. It was the show where they have to take over a "taliban" town and all the problems that come with it.....such as working alogside the ANA.

[Army Guy]

Army Guy - the problem here is that you are assuming I don't understand the military, or that I fear it. That's insane. The military is necessary and important, and everyone with the stones to involve themselves gets my upmost respect. it is true I don't have the same intimate understanding as someone who lives the experience 24 hours a day, but that does not make me ignorant or afraid.

It's very hard to tell that you understand the military with some of the comments that you and Mr green have made, Such as the providing opportunities to our disadvantaged youth, Our nations recruiting efforts being nothing more than propaganda, (perhaps this is based on opinion, as our Nation really does not put alot of effort or care into it's military) but it does not need to trick or fool it's citizens into service....Not letting the military into a school is baised when it is acceptable to have a baker, firefighter, or policemen in to discuss what they do....after all it's not recruits they are looking for at age 12, but rather getting out into the public to better the militarys image.

I didn't even enter this argument on the side of anti-military - my argument was that dr. Greenthumb and only dr. greenthumb can determine what is appropriate for his/her children. If he/she feels that strongly about it, then notice of the event should be given, and there should be no need to fear the press. If there isn't anything wrong going on, then why, according to Dr. Greenthumb, did they do it in secret and on short notice?

Once again we assume there is something wrong, when perhaps it was all something simple and completely inocent.

That appears fishy to me. But it doesn't mean that I haven't read hundreds of books and studied our nation's history at University. We can't all of us be in the military. You and I have different experiences leading to different opinions.

I have no problem with what ever you do, nor do i make comments that may be taken out of turn, or pour feul on someone elses misinformed opinions. My piont is just that our nations military, is not a dept that is out to get the people of Canada, nor working again'st them some how....we are a dept that serve the nation, the people. not a dept to be feared, or shunned...

I still think it was wrong for you to get emotional and attack Dr. Greenthumb for his opinion, because it does not say in his post that he detests the military - that is something you assumed.

I've had serveral posts with mr green, and well lets just say the military is not one of his favorite organizations, for what ever the reasons be.

[Army Guy]

How are you doing Army Guy?

I'm getting ready to rotate back home can't wait ....

So when in your estimation is our commander and chief really going to give some full and calculated thought to this affair in Afghanistan? I hate to see another clean cut kid getting blown to shreds or lose a leg...our mode of operation is all wrong...How can these guys consistantly pick off our troops..without engaging them...IEDs ....Why can we not counter them and make our movements unpredictable - I thought our military transport was all terrain - Why do they stick to using the roads and making themselves road kill? There must be a better way to get around..maybe go around ?

I guess you first have to see the terrain here, off road is very rocky and full of what we call POO dust, a fine baby powder like dust approx 12 to 16 inchs thick....driving through it produces conditions of total white out for the second veh....it's very nature would be perfect to hide IED or mines....atleast on the roads we have somewhat of a chance as you can see if it has dug up or disturbed...and for lots of other reasons...

Not all of our engagements have been on the highways, IEDS and mines are common on the secondary routes as well as the trails....again you have to see the terrian to understand....Such as the weed fields here, we thought those boys in BC could grow weed....they know squat, plants grow on avg over 14 to 18 ft tall, and planted thick enough to stall out and stop a LAV III armour personal carrier....thats 25,000 pound plus machine, 8X8, it's an amasing sight....and for as far as the eye can see.....

[Randy Nicholas]

It's very hard to tell that you understand the military with some of the comments that you and Mr green have made, Such as the providing opportunities to our disadvantaged youth, Our nations recruiting efforts being nothing more than propaganda, (perhaps this is based on opinion, as our Nation really does not put alot of effort or care into it's military) but it does not need to trick or fool it's citizens into service....Not letting the military into a school is baised when it is acceptable to have a baker, firefighter, or policemen in to discuss what they do....after all it's not recruits they are looking for at age 12, but rather getting out into the public to better the militarys image.

I never said the military only targeted disadvantaged youth, neither did I say recruting efforts are nothing more than propaganda. in fact, nobody has said that at all. Those are all assumptions you made based on an initial, and incorrect, reaction to someone who wasn't immediately on the Army Rocks bandwagon.

As for the 'intentions' of the recruitment department, I won't take a guess. However, i do know a thing or two about subliminal messaging, and about 'educating' kids early. It may not be the 'intent' to plant false ideas in the kids brains, but this does happen to varying degrees regardless of intent. Is it wrong? No more than kids watching GI Joe and getting false ideas. The point is to be open about it. Propaganda isnt' something to fear either, if we're educated to detect it, evaluate it, and take it for what it's worth.

And lets not forget that the 'militarys image' needs betterment for a reason. And it's not simply because nobody understands it. Military's around the world have a reputaton that they have earned, and to change that reputation takes time, and action.

The TV commercials say today's military is strong, and then we read reports about ancient and failing equipment, inability to protect our arctic borders, etc. They say the military is proud, and then we see videos of detainee torture. I'm sorry but you don't get to just sweep these sorts of thing under the rug and pretend everything is rosey and that people like Dr. Greenthumb have no right to their opinion because they have not lived YOUR life.

Once again we assume there is something wrong, when perhaps it was all something simple and completely inocent.

neither you, nor I were there to see what Dr. Greenthumb is talking about. "Completely innocent' is a relative term, and that is what I'm trying to get you to understand. 'Completely Innocent' to you may not be to someone else, and it not for you to decide for them just because you feel you have a closer perspective.

I have no problem with what ever you do, nor do i make comments that may be taken out of turn, or pour feul on someone elses misinformed opinions. My piont is just that our nations military, is not a dept that is out to get the people of Canada, nor working again'st them some how....we are a dept that serve the nation, the people. not a dept to be feared, or shunned...

Point taken. I don't believe I ever said the entire military was out to get the people of Canada. Again I'll stress that I respect soldiers in any service. But you serve the people of Canada based on the orders of your superiors, and the direction of our government, and it's THEM we oftentimes do not trust.

I've had serveral posts with mr green, and well lets just say the military is not one of his favorite organizations, for what ever the reasons be.

I dont' really care what your history is with Greenthumb. And whatever the reasons are, it doesn't matter. He can go around the internet all day long and talk about the Evil military. It doens't help your cause to get emotional and lump people into some pre-defined cut-out from some 'us against them' kind of mentality.

I don't believe the prevailing belief in this country is that the military is evil, but I do believe that many parents may want their children to explore other options first, if only out of fear for their safety. If an army recruiter and a school undermined me by holding 'secret sessions', however 'innocent', and my child came home with lofty and misinformed ideas, I would use it as an opportunity for discussion, then I would call the principal and make sure he knows that I want clear notice of events like these in the future. Again, if nothing wrong is going on then there is no reason to not be transparent about it. What if parents want to attend these sessions with their children?

It doesn't help us to keep our kids ignorant, which I think is the crux of your point, and on that we definitely agree. Next time though, when you read something that makes you angry, try not responding until the next day.

[eyeball]

Talking about the war and what it's about = fine

Talking about opinions about war in class = not fine

Talking about opinions about politics in class = really not fine

Are you kidding? All three should be mandatory from preschool on through university.

[eyeball]

In this case I tend to agree with Oleg. A flag is a highly visible and widely recognized symbol of the country it represents. One would think it would be of some importance that it be made in the country it represents. Some things should not be valued merely on a dollar scale, some things should transcend the benchmark of a few pennies difference. I believe the National Flag should be one of these things.

Sorry, I was distracted, its the Provincial flag, not National. Even so I still believe they should be made in Ontario, not China.

I agree, our flag does represent who we are. I think its entirely appropriate that our flags should come from China.

We use terms like Most-Favoured-Nation status to characterize the cozy intimate relationship we have with super-rogues like China. I'd say our values, morals and above all else our principles are worth at least as much as the sub-standard crap they're being symbolized with.

A spray-bombed garbage bag probably would be closer to the reality though.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if most of our bibles come from China now.

Edited March 30, 2009 by eyeball

[KeyStone]

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTV...=TorontoNewHome

I was wondering how many of these flags they purchase?

Would it be better to have produced crap?

While one can make a case that we should use better quality flags, I don't think the NDP generally second guesses the quality of all government purchased products. Therefore, the real issue here is that the government is buying a product from China that it could be buying in Canada (albeit for more money).

Essentially, if the government just handed this company $5 for every flag it bought from China, it would have the same effect.

So, the NDP wants us to prop up Canadian businesses that can't compete with Chinese companies.

Should we prop up all Canadian businesses or just those that manufacture Canadian iconic products?

[Randy Nicholas]

Essentially, if the government just handed this company $5 for every flag it bought from China, it would have the same effect.

So, the NDP wants us to prop up Canadian businesses that can't compete with Chinese companies.

Should we prop up all Canadian businesses or just those that manufacture Canadian iconic products?

I tend to think we shouldn't prop up any business for any reason, but I don't think it's unreasonable for tax-payers to want their money put into our own economy right now where it can be. The Ontario public as a whole can suffer the few extra bucks per flag, because en masse we are quite wealthy, even in recession.

A business in today's economy cannot afford to lose a steady and lucrative contract such as the Gov. of Ontario, to China. If the quality is different, then the Ontario company should be able to make the flags at a lower quality to compete with the Chinese company. But it's awfully cheap for a government spending untold billions in deficits to prop up the auto industry to cripple a local small business just so it can save itself a measly million or so over the next few years.

[DrGreenthumb]

If an army recruiter and a school undermined me by holding 'secret sessions', however 'innocent', and my child came home with lofty and misinformed ideas, I would use it as an opportunity for discussion, then I would call the principal and make sure he knows that I want clear notice of events like these in the future. Again, if nothing wrong is going on then there is no reason to not be transparent about it.

Which is exactly what I did.

I have nothing against the military, it's the assholes giving the orders that bother me. It is a military under the orders of the Conservative party of Canada that I find terribly distressing. Both of my grandfathers served in WWII and I was always proud of my country's military before Harper's Conservatives controlled it.

[Randy Nicholas]

Which is exactly what I did.

I have nothing against the military, it's the assholes giving the orders that bother me. It is a military under the orders of the Conservative party of Canada that I find terribly distressing. Both of my grandfathers served in WWII and I was always proud of my country's military before Harper's Conservatives controlled it.

I'm not sure we'll be able to get that point across to Army Guy et al., possibly because from their experience there is no difference between the soldier and the superior and the executive. It's all the military to them.

But to the rest of us, it's perfectly possible to hold a high respect for the sacrifice our Canadian Service Men and Women make for us, and for each of their individual contributions, without agreeing with the overall mission and while despising the government.

Soldiers are trained to not question their orders because everything is part of a bigger picture than just one group or one engagement, and the people up top are supposed to know what they are doing and have been where the soldiers are, so there's a comradeship that neither of us can appreciate or benefit from not being in the military ourselves.

But there is objectivity gained from watching on the outside of the Military that Army Guy etc. cannot appreciate or benefit from, that allows us to make an individual decision whether or not to support a goal or a mission - that does not mean we don't support the army, but that's always where they go.

[ironstone]

If we don't buy flag from a Canadian company and their business suffers,do we have to bail them out too?

Much ado about nothing this flag flap.

[Oleg Bach]

If we don't buy flag from a Canadian company and their business suffers,do we have to bail them out too?

Much ado about nothing this flag flap.

Yes - we can bail out our flag makers while the same cut throat opportunist freaks that profited from the auto deals with off shore car makers - that they found that making them her was less profitable - it's about commerical disloyality..do you expect money to be loyal. To import a flag of cheap design and fabric and make 20 cents more per unit is what it's all about - money is not patriotic.