NDP upset with Chinese made Ontario flags

[madmax]

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTV...=TorontoNewHome

TORONTO — A flag flap is brewing at the Ontario legislature after the NDP discovered the Liberal government has started buying its provincial flags from China.

Veteran New Democrat Peter Kormos said like many members of the legislature, he hands out Ontario flags on a regular basis to groups such as the boy scouts, girl guides and various ethnic communities.

Members of the legislature must order their flags through the government's procurement office, just as they do with almost all supplies from Ontario lapel pins to office computers.

Kormos was fuming Thursday after learning the procurement office had stopped buying Ontario flags from a Toronto company and outsourced them to China, apparently to save money.

I was wondering how many of these flags they purchase?

The flags, measuring roughly 90 centimetres by 1.8 metres, are a variation on Canada's old Red Ensign, with the Union Jack in the upper left corner and the Ontario coat of arms in a red field. They cost $13 each when bought from China and about $18 when made in the province.

Kormos said the Chinese-made Ontario flags are of lower quality than the ones made by Flying Colours International of Toronto, which the legislature had used for the previous 12 years.

Would it be better to have produced crap?

[Oleg Bach]

American flags are made in China - as are ours - and no one will respect a flag that is made with inferiour material colour and workmanship - If you hold a well made flag it is like a good suit - you feel the quality - How do you expect our young to respect the flag when they touch it - the frist thing that comes to mind is a spray bombed garbage bag.

[Michael Hardner]

The foreign-made flag distraction has to be one of the most hackneyed sideshows that exists in politics.

[DrGreenthumb]

The foreign-made flag distraction has to be one of the most hackneyed sideshows that exists in politics.

Yeah well much to my disgust they had a military recruiter in to speak to my kids grade 7 and 8 classes showing slides and spewing war propaganda for the Conservatives. Boy did that principal get a blast. In the propaganda kit they handed out to the children, these are 12 and 13 year olds, were some jelly bracelets and dogtag costume jewellery bearing the Canadian Armed Forces logo and web addy. On the other side it said "Made in CHINA".

My kids told me that the teacher told them that they hadn't been informed of the speaker ahead of time because the school and the recruiter didn't want any press showing up.

[blueblood]

Yeah well much to my disgust they had a military recruiter in to speak to my kids grade 7 and 8 classes showing slides and spewing war propaganda for the Conservatives. Boy did that principal get a blast. In the propaganda kit they handed out to the children, these are 12 and 13 year olds, were some jelly bracelets and dogtag costume jewellery bearing the Canadian Armed Forces logo and web addy. On the other side it said "Made in CHINA".

My kids told me that the teacher told them that they hadn't been informed of the speaker ahead of time because the school and the recruiter didn't want any press showing up.

Talking about the war and what it's about = fine

Talking about opinions about war in class = not fine

Talking about opinions about politics in class = really not fine

[madmax]

Talking about the war and what it's about = fine

Talking about opinions about war in class = not fine

Talking about opinions about politics in class = really not fine

When I was in high school the Recruiters came to tell us about RMC and other ways to go to University and be in the Armed Forces.

20 Years later my, they came to recruit my sons, but not for RMC, not for education and a career, but to join the reg forces.....

=Really not fine.

[madmax]

The foreign-made flag distraction has to be one of the most hackneyed sideshows that exists in politics.

And not above the Progressive Conservatives who support Peter Kormos statements.

PC Leadership possibility..

PC MPP Tim Hudak agrees.

"In a time of job loss, economic crisis, I think our Ontario flag...should be made in Ontario," he argued.

A downtown Toronto company, Flying Colours International, had been making the flags for the Legislature for over 12 years, but they recently lost the contract to a company from China, which will fork in $40,000 per year over the next 3 years.

Edited March 20, 2009 by madmax

[Topaz]

I remember after 9/11, that when the US went into flying their flags all over their country, SW Ontario, was were they were buying them from, so I wonder what is the differences in price between China and Ontario?

[Oleg Bach]

I remember after 9/11, that when the US went into flying their flags all over their country, SW Ontario, was were they were buying them from, so I wonder what is the differences in price between China and Ontario?

The U S started flying flags on mass because they had to re-stake their claim over their property. With the cheapening effects of globalism you had better fly your flag high and make sure the thing is of good quality. If you do not stake claim then other will claim it- this it the atmosphere that is prevailent these days - it's an ALMOST open boarders policy internationally - and much like a wife or a husband - they must make claim on that which is theirs if not everyone will be piling on your wife like mad monkeys.

[bjre]

Nothing to upset.

This is the result of the inability of the politicians.

If they are able to make Canadian economy booming, who will care about to buy some flags in the nearest place instead of ask for China for just save such small amount of money?

[Oleg Bach]

Come on people spend a few dollars and at least own a good flag. Look at the hand made ones you see in museums. They are still in one piece and are pieces of art. Besides a well made flag flys better - as mentioned - what do our children think when they touch a flag that feels and looks as if it is a painted garbage bag - Quality! At least lets have one thing that we can be proud of. We are so conditioned to cheap junk that we have lost what it is to know and have fine things - cheap cheap cheap - walmart garbage is not CANADA!

[AngusThermopyle]

In this case I tend to agree with Oleg. A flag is a highly visible and widely recognized symbol of the country it represents. One would think it would be of some importance that it be made in the country it represents. Some things should not be valued merely on a dollar scale, some things should transcend the benchmark of a few pennies difference. I believe the National Flag should be one of these things.

Sorry, I was distracted, its the Provincial flag, not National. Even so I still believe they should be made in Ontario, not China.

Edited March 23, 2009 by AngusThermopyle

[Army Guy]

Yeah well much to my disgust they had a military recruiter in to speak to my kids grade 7 and 8 classes showing slides and spewing war propaganda for the Conservatives. Boy did that principal get a blast. In the propaganda kit they handed out to the children, these are 12 and 13 year olds, were some jelly bracelets and dogtag costume jewellery bearing the Canadian Armed Forces logo and web addy. On the other side it said "Made in CHINA".

My kids told me that the teacher told them that they hadn't been informed of the speaker ahead of time because the school and the recruiter didn't want any press showing up.

Must tear you apart inside knowing that some of these young boys and girls will be standing the line for our country one day...Spewing war propaganda for the conservatives....And here i thought our nations security was not party specific but rather what is in our nations best interest...maybe i'm wrong...

But maybe just maybe we can produce a generation that understands alittle bit about our military, unlike your generation that has this unfounded fear about anything that has to do with our security....But then again we are sure are liked when sandbagging the winnipeg river, or Ice Storms, floods, and forrest fires....yup...everyones best friends when it comes down to pulling your ass out of a sinking boat, or crashed plane....but as soon as we start to talk about our jobs....you know the ones you hired us for.....well then that changes everything....

[Wild Bill]

Must tear you apart inside knowing that some of these young boys and girls will be standing the line for our country one day...Spewing war propaganda for the conservatives....And here i thought our nations security was not party specific but rather what is in our nations best interest...maybe i'm wrong...

But maybe just maybe we can produce a generation that understands alittle bit about our military, unlike your generation that has this unfounded fear about anything that has to do with our security....But then again we are sure are liked when sandbagging the winnipeg river, or Ice Storms, floods, and forrest fires....yup...everyones best friends when it comes down to pulling your ass out of a sinking boat, or crashed plane....but as soon as we start to talk about our jobs....you know the ones you hired us for.....well then that changes everything....

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,

The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."

The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,

I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";

But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,

The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,

O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,

They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;

They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,

But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";

But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,

The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,

O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;

An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit

Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"

But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,

The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,

O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,

But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;

An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,

Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",

But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,

There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,

O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:

We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.

Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face

The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"

But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;

An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

-- Rudyard Kipling

Thank you and your mates, Army guy! THIS citizens knows he owes you all a LOT of beer!

[Randy Nicholas]

Must tear you apart inside knowing that some of these young boys and girls will be standing the line for our country one day...Spewing war propaganda for the conservatives....And here i thought our nations security was not party specific but rather what is in our nations best interest...maybe i'm wrong...

But maybe just maybe we can produce a generation that understands alittle bit about our military, unlike your generation that has this unfounded fear about anything that has to do with our security....But then again we are sure are liked when sandbagging the winnipeg river, or Ice Storms, floods, and forrest fires....yup...everyones best friends when it comes down to pulling your ass out of a sinking boat, or crashed plane....but as soon as we start to talk about our jobs....you know the ones you hired us for.....well then that changes everything....

I'm all for educating our citizens on the usefulness, history, and pride of our armed forces, but there is a difference between education and propaganda.

The military provides an opportunity for some youth who would otherwise not have any opportunity at all, but I would be just as furious if my children were forced to attend a military seminar they didn't know was going to happen, and were told propaganda designed to get them infatuated with the idea of joining the Army. That is not because I have no respect for, knowledge about, or unfounded fear of our military. It is because I believe people who join the military should do so with a complete understanding.

There is a difference, sir, between educating our children in the wonderful things that our Military has done throughout its history, and handing out marketing swag. I don't believe Dr. Greenthumb was attacking your career or the careers of any soldier, rather the methods of recruitment that have children believing that joining the army will be all about hanging out with your buds and traveling the world with cool gadgets. I think you'll agree there is much more to a career in the military than that.

I know of 116 soldiers last seen in Afghanistan who would.

[Army Guy]

I'm all for educating our citizens on the usefulness, history, and pride of our armed forces, but there is a difference between education and propaganda.

So your assuming that this recruiter was in fact spewing propaganda, building up the hype that one assumes to surround the military, i mean we are talking about 12 and 13 years old here, how many recruits do you think such a tactic would bring....Recruiters have a set out package they present, yes it may be filled with lots of pictures making everything look like a walk in the park, toned down..... but at this age level it would be geared discussing current and past history, with some of the good and bad mixed in.... and what the Armed forces was doing in our countries name ....not really towards gathering up child soldiers....So a few gadets were given out, what harm does that do....

The military provides an opportunity for some youth who would otherwise not have any opportunity at all, but I would be just as furious if my children were forced to attend a military seminar they didn't know was going to happen, and were told propaganda designed to get them infatuated with the idea of joining the Army. That is not because I have no respect for, knowledge about, or unfounded fear of our military. It is because I believe people who join the military should do so with a complete understanding.

Thats a crock, the Military provides oppurtunity to all our nations youth, not just those that do not have a calling in life, the military employs doctors, dentists, nurses, lawyers, pilots, you name it, and not just on the battle field, but doing humanitarian missions, rescue missions, across the whole scope of situations.....

I get the opinion that it's OK for others to be involved in our nations security just not my kids...or that this recruiter will have some magical hold on your child turning them into some TV warrior....Not true, here in this Nation parents still have full control over thier children, and they can still guide thier children into being anyone they choose....regardless of what any recruiter says, be it military, RCMP, or fortune 500 company.

Kids have always been infactuated with the army, how many times have you gone out into the yard and seen them playing at war, cops or robbers. That is until thier attention turns to girls, or boys....

The whole mission of the todays military is to produce a soldier, sailor, airmen, that have a complete understanding of what thier job is and what is expected of them while performing that job, it is drilled into thier heads the exact meaning of unlimited liability and what that means....

todays military is made up of volunteers....made up from across this country, rich, poor, black, white, it's made up of Canadians....whom have joined for many reasons....

There is a difference, sir, between educating our children in the wonderful things that our Military has done throughout its history, and handing out marketing swag. I don't believe Dr. Greenthumb was attacking your career or the careers of any soldier, rather the methods of recruitment that have children believing that joining the army will be all about hanging out with your buds and traveling the world with cool gadgets. I think you'll agree there is much more to a career in the military than that.

I think it would take more than a few MADE IN CHINA trinkets to sway anyone from joining the military or for that matter anything....and while it might hold thier interest for a few days it will be quickly replaced by the next trinket man....Like i said before anyone that joins the military and does not fully understand what thier jobs entails fully in short order is well sir a few bricks shy Sir. And your right there is much more than that, but it is also alot motre than seeing our worlds shitty spots as well...

I know of 116 soldiers last seen in Afghanistan who would.

Those 116 died for something they believed in, something they loved doing, giving something we Canadains take for granted everyday...freedom

they did not give thier lives for a segretgated nation where only those that have no advantages serve thier nations foreign policy....they joined because it was thier gift to the entire Canadain people , rich, and poor, etc....

[Argus]

Yeah well much to my disgust they had a military recruiter in to speak to my kids grade 7 and 8 classes showing slides and spewing war propaganda for the Conservatives. Boy did that principal get a blast. In the propaganda kit they handed out to the children, these are 12 and 13 year olds, were some jelly bracelets and dogtag costume jewellery bearing the Canadian Armed Forces logo and web addy. On the other side it said "Made in CHINA".

My kids told me that the teacher told them that they hadn't been informed of the speaker ahead of time because the school and the recruiter didn't want any press showing up.

What they probably meant was they didn't want to attract any psychologically disturbed, emotionally immature anti-war freaks who might upset the kids.

[Argus]

I'm all for educating our citizens on the usefulness, history, and pride of our armed forces, but there is a difference between education and propaganda.

Translation: You're all for telling people about how terrible the military is, and how brutalized and miserable are the people who are encounter the military, and all for widely discussing every incident of misuse of force or possible abuse of prisons, or every possible violation of human rights. But if anyone says anything good about being in the military, or anything about the military doing good- that's propoganda.

The military provides an opportunity for some youth who would otherwise not have any opportunity at all, but I would be just as furious if my children were forced to attend a military seminar they didn't know was going to happen, and were told propaganda designed to get them infatuated with the idea of joining the Army. That is not because I have no respect for, knowledge about, or unfounded fear of our military.

Oh sure it is. C'mon and admit it. We all know anyway.

It is because I believe people who join the military should do so with a complete understanding.

Which uh, should not come from the military, right?

I don't believe Dr. Greenthumb was attacking your career or the careers of any soldier, rather the methods of recruitment that have children believing that joining the army will be all about hanging out with your buds and traveling the world with cool gadgets.

From the sounds of it this was nothing more than a routine sort of event. Schools have professionals in all the time to talk about their jobs and careers so kids get an idea what it's like. No one is recruiting junior high kids for the army, but there's no reason they shouldn't get an idea what it is like, and what the army was doing just because a few anti-war, anti-militarist loonies don't want kids to hear anything about the military other than that they're evil thugs.

[Randy Nicholas]

So your assuming that this recruiter was in fact spewing propaganda, building up the hype that one assumes to surround the military, i mean we are talking about 12 and 13 years old here, how many recruits do you think such a tactic would bring....Recruiters have a set out package they present, yes it may be filled with lots of pictures making everything look like a walk in the park, toned down..... but at this age level it would be geared discussing current and past history, with some of the good and bad mixed in.... and what the Armed forces was doing in our countries name ....not really towards gathering up child soldiers....So a few gadets were given out, what harm does that do....

I have witnessed recruiters spewing propaganda. I'm nto assuming anything. At worst, I'm taking someone else's word for it. It wasn't my child, it was Dr. Greenthumb's. If he felt it was propaganda, who am I to judge?

Thats a crock, the Military provides oppurtunity to all our nations youth, not just those that do not have a calling in life, the military employs doctors, dentists, nurses, lawyers, pilots, you name it, and not just on the battle field, but doing humanitarian missions, rescue missions, across the whole scope of situations.....

You're right. I should have spoken better there. However, I did not say it ONLY provides those opportunities to disadvantaged youth. It is however, the only thing I mentioned. Thank you for clarifying that, but the military does in fact offer opportunity to people who have very little opportunities does it not?

I get the opinion that it's OK for others to be involved in our nations security just not my kids...or that this recruiter will have some magical hold on your child turning them into some TV warrior....Not true, here in this Nation parents still have full control over thier children, and they can still guide thier children into being anyone they choose....regardless of what any recruiter says, be it military, RCMP, or fortune 500 company.

And that is why Dr Greenthumb has every right to not want his children being recruited for the military, or have them participate in recruitment sessions of any kind. His kids, his determination. if he thinks it's propaganda, it doesn't matter what you or I think. It is not a personal attack on you.

Kids have always been infactuated with the army, how many times have you gone out into the yard and seen them playing at war, cops or robbers. That is until thier attention turns to girls, or boys....

To tell the honest turth, drawing my own experiences as a child, we had a lot more imagination than that. I never was interested in cops and robbers or pretending war. We played out disney movies and the last uncorn, played tag, marbles, and things like that. As I look at kids today, the only time I see them playing at war is with simulation video games. We've had different experiences of the world you and me. Clearl

The whole mission of the todays military is to produce a soldier, sailor, airmen, that have a complete understanding of what thier job is and what is expected of them while performing that job, it is drilled into thier heads the exact meaning of unlimited liability and what that means....

todays military is made up of volunteers....made up from across this country, rich, poor, black, white, it's made up of Canadians....whom have joined for many reasons....

Before, or after they join?

I think it would take more than a few MADE IN CHINA trinkets to sway anyone from joining the military or for that matter anything....and while it might hold thier interest for a few days it will be quickly replaced by the next trinket man....Like i said before anyone that joins the military and does not fully understand what thier jobs entails fully in short order is well sir a few bricks shy Sir. And your right there is much more than that, but it is also alot motre than seeing our worlds shitty spots as well...

It seems you're a little emotional on this topic, so I'll try to be as delicate as I can because it is not my wish to offend you at all. I have nothing but respect for what you do. But listen, I watch the Army commercials on TV, and they are NOT designed to make people understand what it is, they are designed to dupe people into thinking it will be a vacation so that they can then get people in there to convince them to join. Some people are afraid of that. THAT'S what propaganda is. Flashy and false. If the recruiters aren't using flashy and false, then i have no problem with them. The TV commercials are that, so i have a problem with them. And I still believe Dr. Greenthumb, who was the first victim of your emotional attack, has the right to decide what constitutes propaganda in his home without it offending your sensibilities.

Those 116 died for something they believed in, something they loved doing, giving something we Canadains take for granted everyday...freedom

they did not give thier lives for a segretgated nation where only those that have no advantages serve thier nations foreign policy....they joined because it was thier gift to the entire Canadain people , rich, and poor, etc....

Absolutely right.

[Randy Nicholas]

Argus, most of your post was quite rude, so I'll ignore those parts.

Which uh, should not come from the military, right?

It should come from a variety of sources, including the military, obviously.

From the sounds of it this was nothing more than a routine sort of event. Schools have professionals in all the time to talk about their jobs and careers so kids get an idea what it's like. No one is recruiting junior high kids for the army, but there's no reason they shouldn't get an idea what it is like, and what the army was doing just because a few anti-war, anti-militarist loonies don't want kids to hear anything about the military other than that they're evil thugs.

That is your decision to make for your own kids, but you don't get to decide for everyone's kids, see? Nowhere did I say I want the kids educated that the military is evil. Do you even know how to read? Perhaps you have some archetype in your head about everyone who disagrees with you, but don't invent things and say I've said them, and then insult me for saying them. That's so childish. It does not strengthen your argument to twist and distort what people say. Your little 'translation' bit what pulled completely out of thin air.

[madmax]

Argus, most of your post was quite rude, so I'll ignore those parts.

Argus is a civil servant.....

[Argus]

Argus, most of your post was quite rude, so I'll ignore those parts.

Or you could answer them - rudely if necessary, as you have below.

That is your decision to make for your own kids, but you don't get to decide for everyone's kids, see?

On the contrary - I do. Or rather, individual parents have no right to decide what their kid gets taught and shown in class. That's why, for example, even if you hate homosexuals, you don't get to exempt your kid from general lessons of how great it is to be gay. Or if you think public health care is a communist plot, you still don't get to exempt your kid from being tauth how Tommie Douglas was the greatest human being in history.

Nowhere did I say I want the kids educated that the military is evil.

That was certainly what I read, from both you and doctor pothead above.

[Argus]

Argus is a civil servant.....

With a good salary. I just finished a big reno job at home, Max. It's beautiful! Well worth the money spent.

And you? Mom still calling downstairs to get you to walk the dog?

[Randy Nicholas]

Or you could answer them - rudely if necessary, as you have below.

No.

On the contrary - I do. Or rather, individual parents have no right to decide what their kid gets taught and shown in class. That's why, for example, even if you hate homosexuals, you don't get to exempt your kid from general lessons of how great it is to be gay. Or if you think public health care is a communist plot, you still don't get to exempt your kid from being tauth how Tommie Douglas was the greatest human being in history.

You are comparing apples to oranges, and betraying a lack of education yourself. These are not the same things, and please show me the school where they teach that it's great to be gay! Give me a break.

That was certainly what I read, from both you and doctor pothead above.

That is because you are injecting your bias and your emotion into the discussion and not paying any attention at all to the words on the page.

It is easy to twist people's arguments to make yourself feel superior or somehow more correct, but you are not contributing to the argument by slinging insults. This is all the time I will waste with you.

[madmax]

With a good salary. I just finished a big reno job at home, Max. It's beautiful! Well worth the money spent.

Don't forget to claim it with the big reno TAX CREDIT

I would hate to see you miss out on the Governments recent announcement .

And you? Mom still calling downstairs to get you to walk the dog?

Its a wonder that people don't appreciate government bureacrats.

Its people like you who support purchasing our flags offshore.