Harmonizing the GST and PST

[ironstone]

Do the 905 blindly vote liberal? I thought that was the 416?

I know that my riding - Cooksville, which is in the 905 - is strongly Liberal with Peter Fonseca as the MPP, but that is partially because the conservatives don't run very strong candidates here. During the last Fed election, for example, the Cons ran a TV personality who was rejected as a Liberal. In every way the Liberal incumbent was the best choice for a local rep, but I voted Con instead despite the weak candidate.

Hmmmm,could be my mistake on that one.I guess I'm not up to speed on Ontario area codes.I meant to say the GTA seems to be strongly Liberal.It seems to me that of the two main political parties in this country,the Liberals are given an enormous amount of leeway compared to the Conservatives.For them,it's almost a zero tolerance policy from the voters.

[madmax]

I wish the BC government would wake up and harmonize the GST & PST. As a bookkeeper I can tell you the hardest part of my job is dealing with the PST and understanding the rules. One of the reasons I won't vote for Gordon Campbell's Liberals is they promised to get rid of rules and red tape but with the PST they've only managed to make it worse!

So you think that I should pay another $2,000 in taxes in order to make your job as a book keeper easier?

I am sorry to hear the BC Liberals haven't come through on making the PST easier to deal with, but made it worse.

I see no need for the Ontario Government to pick my pocket, there hands are already in their pretty deep.

[Nat]

So you think that I should pay another $2,000 in taxes in order to make your job as a book keeper easier?

My employer is paying thousands of dollars to administer the complicated PST whereas the GST is simple to administer. Believe me the final consumer of our product is paying those costs. If the PST & GST were harmonized we could rid ourselves of a whole branch of auditors int BC who have to try to enforce a complicated tax system.

[madmax]

My employer is paying thousands of dollars to administer the complicated PST whereas the GST is simple to administer. Believe me the final consumer of our product is paying those costs. If the PST & GST were harmonized we could rid ourselves of a whole branch of auditors int BC who have to try to enforce a complicated tax system.

People should not pay higher taxes to solve the PST problems faced by your employer.

Great Idea

Carbon Tax + another 7% PST

Hotel Tax + Another 7% PST

Motor FUEL TAX + Carbon Tax + 7% PST

Tobbaco Tax + 7% PST

I know of no Province which Harmonized their Sales Tax and eliminated auditors and heres why it won't happen in BC.

Fuel Taxes.....

BC Ferries

April 1, 2003

Nil

Nil

Nil

BCTFA

March 1, 2003

6.75¢ per litre

6.75¢ per litre

6.75¢ per litre

TransLink

April 1, 2005

12¢ per litre

Nil

Nil

BC Transit

April 1, 2008

Nil

3.5¢ per litre

Nil

Province - Gasoline

April 1, 2005

1.75¢ per litre

7.75¢ per litre

7.75¢ per litre

Province - Diesel

April 1, 2005

2.25¢ per litre

8.25¢ per litre

8.25¢ per litre

Total Tax - Gasoline

20.50¢ per litre

18¢ per litre

14.5¢ per litre

Total Tax - Diesel

21¢ per litre

18.5¢ per litre

15¢ per litre

Province-wide Tax Rates on Fuel other than Gas or Diesel

Fuel Type

Tax Rate

Aviation fuel (non-jet)

2 ¢ per litre

Jet fuel

2 ¢ per litre

Locomotive fuel

3 ¢ per litre

Coloured (marked/dyed) fuel, marine diesel (including any fuel sold as diesel fuel for a ship), but not including propane

3 ¢ per litre

Coloured (marked/dyed) fuel purchased for use by a bona fide farmer

Exempt

Marine bunker fuel (heavy fuels for marine use)

Exempt

Marine Gas Oil used to power marine gas turbine engines*

Exempt

Alcohol-based fuel used in motor vehicles**

Exempt

Natural Gas used in motor vehicles**

Exempt

Propane used in motor vehicles or for purposes for which coloured fuel is authorized under the Act**

2.7 ¢ per litre

Natural gas used in stationary engines, compressors, pumps

See Natural Gas Program

Biodiesel and ethanol for all purposes including a biodiesel fuel blend and an ethanol fuel blend in which the ethanol portion is 5% to 25%*

Exempt

See Alternative Fuels Program

[Nat]

All those taxes need to been harmonized to the GST there shouldn't be dozens of different provincal taxes. The taxes can be harmonized at a lower rate then present so the revenue stream is the same and we don't pay more overall taxes but they need to be harmonized!

[madmax]

All those taxes need to been harmonized to the GST there shouldn't be dozens of different provincal taxes. The taxes can be harmonized at a lower rate then present so the revenue stream is the same and we don't pay more overall taxes but they need to be harmonized!

Aren't you optimistic. Unfortuneately, you aren't in Ontario, where the harmonization results in tax increases across the board and no lower rate. I understand your position, but it just isn't happening here.

More reason to be outraged.

THis is likely to be part of the Liberal Plan heading into the next election, knock a point or two off the PST.

That said, the Western Provinces do have alot more other taxes that we don't have in Ontario. Alberta, Sask, Manitoba and BC all seem to have these extra layers of Provincial Tax and User fees.

On another note, I don't believe that the Fuel Tax, and the Carbon Tax on Fuel, will be reduced when the PST is Harmonized with the GST on Fuel. It will be another 7% on top of all the other taxes.

Ouch!!!

[M.Dancer]

HARMONIZE OUR PST WITH ALBERTA....

[Riverwind]

People should not pay higher taxes to solve the PST problems faced by your employer.

Value added consumption taxes are the most economically efficient way to tax. Making changes to the tax system always create winners and losers but this particular change is really important and the benefits will pay off in the long run. The HST rebates will offset the cost to lower income consumers.

[madmax]

Value added consumption taxes are the most economically efficient way to tax. Making changes to the tax system always create winners and losers but this particular change is really important and the benefits will pay off in the long run. The HST rebates will offset the cost to lower income consumers.

The vast number of lower end consumers that I am aware of do not file tax returns, such is the life of the marginalized and very poor. They will bear this extra tax. As you move up in security and stability the more likely you are to file a tax return and the less likely the rebate is going to cover your increased expenses because of Provincial Greed.

The only "Winner" is the Red Bandits of the McGuinty Government.

[mikedavid00]

The only "Winner" is the Red Bandits of the McGuinty Government.

Also what's funny is that I dont think people have fully realized what costs are going to go up.

I purchased my sport supplements as usual. I noticed that I only get charged GST on these. Well, that's going to change. Another $5 a month out of my pocket.

I looked into the feasability of getting a greenhouse to grow my own vegetables and such. Also another option would be getting rid of cats which cost us $20 a month in cat food.

I'm going to get rid of my $12 a month VoIP home phone and only go wireless only now. Possibly change my ISP also.. Also still looking into breweing my own beer to save costs.

This monthly tax grab is really going to hit deep in our monthly budget.

Another thing worth noting, that I know people are going to instantly dismiss is that a few years from now, mortgage rates will increase a lot. Anyone who thinks they are getting a good rate right now or who re-negotiated are giong to be sorry when their terms expire. I'm expecting 7% mortgage rates after this whole crisis is over.

Factor that with the GST increase and your household could easily be out about $300 a month while salary in the private sector stay the same.

Also, I wanted to prove that private sector wages have been stagnent in the private sector (real world), but it seems more and more stats can is operating like a business - not servicing the people:

"The current request consists of 68 series, at a cost of $204.

Data for years 2000 to 2008 have been requested. "

My recommendation is to plan for a LOT of money out of your household income in 2 years or so. The gov't is getting desperate and their hands are in your pocket deep.

[Wayne McQ.]

Since I can't watch the Ontario gov't on TV thanks to Starchoice, I heard on a radio program that McGuinty is thinking of harmonizing the GST and PST and from what I'm hearing from a radio program, viewers they are totally against. The Host found that we would be paying more tax when buying. A rep. from the Ontario Housing Ass. said for a $200,000, new home would be 209,000 and in Toronto is would be nearly extra 46,000 for a new home. So it seems again it would be the Feds and the Ontario that would come out ahead and at a time when we need more money in the hands of Canadians and not governments!! How would this work for items that aren't taxed on the GST or provincial??

Big mistake!! That is exactly what the Liberal government in NB did, along with NS, and NL. PE was the only Atlantic province with any brains and decided that they wanted no part in a harmonized sales tax. For starters in many cases the provincial jurisdiction can choose not to apply sales tax to essentials like heat, lights, phone services and clotheing and footwear, but the GST is applied to all of those categories. When a province decides to harmonize their PST with the GST, they have no choice but to apply the tax to every item or service that the GST is applied to. Aside from the fact that Atlantic Canada has fallen for this snow-job, why shoud other jurisdictions?

[August1991]

Big mistake!! That is exactly what the Liberal government in NB did, along with NS, and NL. PE was the only Atlantic province with any brains and decided that they wanted no part in a harmonized sales tax. For starters in many cases the provincial jurisdiction can choose not to apply sales tax to essentials like heat, lights, phone services and clotheing and footwear, but the GST is applied to all of those categories. When a province decides to harmonize their PST with the GST, they have no choice but to apply the tax to every item or service that the GST is applied to. Aside from the fact that Atlantic Canada has fallen for this snow-job, why shoud other jurisdictions?

Why should these other items be exempt from tax? Why should fellow taxpayers in effect subsidize certain items? You mention heat and light, for example. If someone has a large house expensive to heat, why should others subsidize this?

As a matter of fact, Canadians are profligate with energy compared to other countries (for example Norway, a sparsely populated northern country with many energy sources). One reason we waste our energy (rather than profitably sell it to foreigners) is because we indirectly subsidize it through our tax system.

I purchased my sport supplements as usual. I noticed that I only get charged GST on these. Well, that's going to change. Another $5 a month out of my pocket.

I looked into the feasability of getting a greenhouse to grow my own vegetables and such. Also another option would be getting rid of cats which cost us $20 a month in cat food.

I'm going to get rid of my $12 a month VoIP home phone and only go wireless only now. Possibly change my ISP also.. Also still looking into breweing my own beer to save costs.

This monthly tax grab is really going to hit deep in our monthly budget.

If I understand properly MikeDavid (and I'll admit that your reasoning is not always coherent), you will change your purchases because things will be taxed equally and buyers in Ontario will face a level playing field.

In your view, should the government choose favourites? Should it choose which sectors will not be taxed (and implicitly receive a subsidy so that people like you can get a deal)?

For example, should the government subsidize cat owners, greenhouse builders and beer drinkers? Why? I didn't know that you were a social engineer.

If you are angry about the tax grab, you should know that Dalton McGuinty, stupid as he may be, doesn't tax for the fun of it. Taxes aren't fun. It's spending the tax money that is the fun part. So, don't blame McGuinty for the tax grab; blame him for the spending binge.

Edited May 7, 2009 by August1991

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Why should these other items be exempt from tax? Why should fellow taxpayers in effect subsidize certain items?

How is something that is exempt from tax being subsidized?

Used vehicles are now currently exempt from GST. After harmonization, will they have GST placed on top as well? If so, how is the government currently subsidizing used cars?

How is the government subsidizing internet service providers?

Please elaborate... I don't understand how not paying tax on something is equal to subsidizing it.

[Guest raymond]

I have been trying to find out the PST generated for '08 and the projected amount generated by the HST after

it's first full year in existence.

I cannot see Mr Mcguinty implementing this new tax unless there is a substantial increase in revenue.

I think Ontario voters should be aware of these figures before the next election.

raymond

[madmax]

How is something that is exempt from tax being subsidized?

Used vehicles are now currently exempt from GST. After harmonization, will they have GST placed on top as well? If so, how is the government currently subsidizing used cars?

How is the government subsidizing internet service providers?

Please elaborate... I don't understand how not paying tax on something is equal to subsidizing it.

I had been waiting (lurking) patiently for an answer....from August1991... to your question.

One of the overlooked things is the Federal Government Rubbing their hands with things such as the GST on resold goods such as Automotive Vehicles sold privately.

[roof_top_eagle]

It would be inconsistent to expect that a politician would make such a change solely for the benefit of business, small or otherwise. It is an obvious large benefit to McGuinty! First off, he will no longer need nearly as large a collection/administration department. The feds will collect the whole schmozzle and just send him a cheque. So he will be able to downsize staff, at least as much as is allowed in the public sector.

I'm pretty sure McGuinty wont downsize the staff. He'll probably reassign them, public sector employees have the most job security out of anyone in the workforce. Even business owners have less job security.

[roof_top_eagle]

I sent him (McGuinty) a letter laying out my concerns about the HST and all I got back was a form letter he probably sent out to every other citizen of Ontario. It didn't even remotely address my concerns. The letter (Which he probably didn't even write) just stated that he thinks it's best for Ontario.

Man I hate it when politicians don't address the real issues.

It also drives me nuts that I will have to vote Liberal for my riding in the next Provincial Election because I really like my MP. We really need to change the voting system, it's not right that I have to vote a party leader I don't like into power if I like the local candidate!

[madmax]

It also drives me nuts that I will have to vote Liberal for my riding in the next Provincial Election because I really like my MP. We really need to change the voting system, it's not right that I have to vote a party leader I don't like into power if I like the local candidate!

You can always choose to run against the incumbent. If you lose, you have MPP that you like, if you win, you sent a message to McGuinty.

[Mr. Whiteman Esq.]

I sent him (McGuinty) a letter laying out my concerns about the HST and all I got back was a form letter he probably sent out to every other citizen of Ontario. It didn't even remotely address my concerns. The letter (Which he probably didn't even write) just stated that he thinks it's best for Ontario.

Man I hate it when politicians don't address the real issues.

So why should he listen to you as opposed to any one of millions of other Ontarians? What makes your opinion more valid or worthy of consideration. I'm opposed to the HST, but the HST is a result of Ontario being constantly shafted by the federal government, is it not? Look at how much money Ontario has forked out to support all of the other provinces; what if that money had been used to invest in Ontario and to prepare for times like these? In general, McGuinty has done a number of good things for the province, and has succeeded in getting us back on course after the problem years under Rae and Harris/Eves.

[madmax]

In general, McGuinty has done a number of good things for the province, and has succeeded in getting us back on course after the problem years under Rae and Harris/Eves.

He breathes.. avoid controversy and is a compulsive liar.

No the HST is not because of transfer payments. But it is a gratutitous grab into MY pocketm, which he is very good at doing.

By being a successful liar, McGuinty has been able to maintain the Harris/Eve initiatives.

The only thing McGuinty has done differently is not create an unnecessary war with the teachers, for which they have been grateful with support. He hasn't cut back their wages like RAE, or badgered them like Mike Harris "Create a crises" regime.

Like many Liberal Governments is able to let the corruption slide off the back and not get punished or fingered by the public for stealing and diverting tax payers money. The Liberal machine is great with smoke and mirrors.

I expect them to win another election as people will outright reject a return to the common sense revolution.

[DFCaper]

So why should he listen to you as opposed to any one of millions of other Ontarians? What makes your opinion more valid or worthy of consideration. I'm opposed to the HST, but the HST is a result of Ontario being constantly shafted by the federal government, is it not? Look at how much money Ontario has forked out to support all of the other provinces; what if that money had been used to invest in Ontario and to prepare for times like these? In general, McGuinty has done a number of good things for the province, and has succeeded in getting us back on course after the problem years under Rae and Harris/Eves.

Didn't Ontario just receive transfer payments??? As a result of times like these??? Plus outside of Quebec, most provinces receiving transfer payments, didn't receive as much as Ontario did having our federal government located in this province. Why is the coast guard and department of fisheries based on the Rideau canal? And are not the pensions and savings of employees throughout Canada being held by rich bankers in Toronto? We are lucky here in Ontario to have these huge financial benefits.

I am glad the Harris days are over as I'm sure we'd be bankrupt by now if his style of government was still around. I can't defend McGuinty's fix it with tax increases style though. Especially the way he campaigns against them. This HST would be a good idea if he would lower the rate. This is the largest tax grab/increase I have ever seen. I actually know people who left after his health tax increase. That never bothered me 1/2 as much as this one. ABL.

[Sir Bandelot]

As I understand it, a small business does not have to charge the GST to a customer, if their annual income is below some value. Oh I can't remember if it was $16,000 or $30,000 gross income for a business. So that means my small sole proprietorship does not have to charge th GST. But I always have to charge PST, for any sales in Ontario. Now if it is harmonized, doesn't that mean I will have to charge the HST, no matter what?

If so, thats where the tax grab is, for the little guy.

[Mr. Whiteman Esq.]

Didn't Ontario just receive transfer payments??? As a result of times like these??? Plus outside of Quebec, most provinces receiving transfer payments, didn't receive as much as Ontario did having our federal government located in this province. Why is the coast guard and department of fisheries based on the Rideau canal? And are not the pensions and savings of employees throughout Canada being held by rich bankers in Toronto? We are lucky here in Ontario to have these huge financial benefits.

HAHAHAHA... oh, yeah, we got something like $350 MILLION, which is not all that much in the grand scheme of things. Not sure what the federal government being in Ottawa has to do with it--this doesn't automatically make it favour the province. Especially when there's a westerner like Harper at the helm. McGuinty tried to get people's attention that the feds were not being co-operative, but not many paid attention. But propose a new tax, then people wake up fast. Maybe if people weren't so apathetic and paid more attention to provincial politics, we wouldn't have gotten to this point. The people of Ontario have to stand up against the federal gov't, not McGuinty.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

The HST isn't even that bad of an idea. Good to simplify things, but a reduction to 10% overall would have been nice. (I think ole' flip flop mcguinty is going to come out with a reduction next year just before the marriage happens - that way he will look like the good guy and have the lead going into an election - but that could just be wishful thinking).

I remember when I used to run a small business that PST was a pain. You could claim an exemption from a supplier for certain things depending on your business, but unless you always used the same supplier (which I didn't), it was a hassle. GST was much easier - the small business would claim how much GST they collected, and how much GST they spent. The difference was either refunded to them or collected from them. When I was starting up and my expenditures far exceeded my income I was getting GST cheques back monthly. Once PST is merged with GST, I will just revive my old business number and claim as much GST back as I feel I can get away with...

The thing is it is going to come at a bad time... like people can afford to pay more for heating oil and gasoline when so many can't even find work. It will be especially bad for a already suffering housing market... mostly new houses, but also resales as lawyer and real estate fees will be higher.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Chuck U. Farlie

[DFCaper]

HAHAHAHA... oh, yeah, we got something like $350 MILLION, which is not all that much in the grand scheme of things. Not sure what the federal government being in Ottawa has to do with it--this doesn't automatically make it favour the province. Especially when there's a westerner like Harper at the helm. McGuinty tried to get people's attention that the feds were not being co-operative, but not many paid attention. But propose a new tax, then people wake up fast. Maybe if people weren't so apathetic and paid more attention to provincial politics, we wouldn't have gotten to this point. The people of Ontario have to stand up against the federal gov't, not McGuinty.

I guess the 10,000 of big paying jobs being located in your province isn't a benefit in your mind. Then why did the feds just blow billions to save a few in the auto sector.... in ONTARIO only.... Don't start a movement to make Ontario whine thet they are victims of confederation.... If anything, we are the opposite.

I do agree with Chuck that if he reduced the overall tax as they have in other provinces, I would support this move, as it does pose benefits and savings. Unfortionately, McGuinty wants it to also be a huge tax grab...

Edited June 28, 2009 by DFCaper