Jerry J. Fortin Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 We shall see what happens. Iggy has a long and difficult road ahead of him. Yet his path is not as difficult as Harpers. Stevie the Wonder Politician is about to face some very real problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Oleg takes his beatings here and has survived, so he must have a much thicker skin the Dion defenders of the past. Oleg has a following here. I enjoy the humour and the common touch he brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Back to Ignatieff "the American" As is well-known, Ignatieff supported the war in Iraq, a position he only semi-retreated from last year, in year four of the botched occupation. Even then, he argued that he had been wrong for the right reasons (saving the Kurds from Saddam Hussein), while opponents of the war may have been right for the wrong reasons (ideological opposition to Bush).He also supported the use of such harsh interrogation techniques on terrorism suspects as sleep deprivation and hooding, even while saying he opposed torture. He was also an advocate for American exceptionalism in defiance of international law. apparently, madmax is in recycle mode… we’ve previously addressed the Iraq position - Ignatieff’s NYT article clearly makes the case for the judgement made, for politicians acknowledging their mistakes, for distinctions between academia and political realities, etc. Getting Iraq Wrong we’ve previously addressed the position on coercive interrogation that doesn't involve stress or duress – we’ve had Ignatieff quotes offered that clearly show his position against torture… such as, (again): “So getting to the issue of interrogation, interrogation has to be consistent with Canadian law, consistent with international conventions—like the Convention on Torture—consistent with our international obligations. It has to be rigorous and thorough, because we’re up against some threats to our security, but it must be within the traditions of the Canadian Charter and the applicable laws, and it must be subject to democratic scrutiny.” an outstanding request remains to show where Ignatieff's position is inconsistent with any of the above... still waiting. you (madmax) made a claim that sleep deprivation had been banned from Guantanamo… you kept needling with your “light” labelling. You have yet to acknowledge my post that repudiated that claim, where I stated, (again): strictly speaking… the recent Obama executive order calls for the handling of detainees in accordance with the U.S. Army field manual: Army FM 2-22.3, Human Intelligence Collector Operations. might there be initiatives to further adjust that manual? Possibly; however, as of today… that U.S. Army field manual includes numerous appendices and, in particular, Appendix M – Restricted Interrogation Technique – Separation, which allows for the use of sleep and sensory deprivation and isolation - termed “separation”. specifically to the raised point concerning sleep deprivation, the manual states --- “Use of separation must not preclude the detainee getting four hours of continuous sleep every 24 hours.” oh wait, there is something new here, after all… that scurrilous article includes a reference to Ignatieff being an “advocate for American exceptionalism in defiance of international law.” A one liner drive-by with nothing offered to substantiate the stated advocacy. In the face of nothing else offered, I will certainly take the liberty of assuming the statement relates to Ignatieff’s book, “American Exceptionalism and Human Rights”. You know, the much reviewed book that includes an introduction from Ignatieff together with the essays of eleven leading experts in such fields as international relations and international law – a book that seeks to show and explain how America's approach to human rights differs from that of most other Western nations. An Ignatieff book that received such glowing reviews as: "An excellent new collection of essays on American exceptionalism. . . . Michael Ignatieff . . . seeks to distinguish between US 'exemptionalism,' double standards and legal isolationism."--Quentin Peel, Financial Times "This collection on American exceptionalism seeks to explain the seeming paradox of US governmental support for, and aversion to, global human rights. . . . This study is an important contribution to the scholarship of international humanitarian law and US foreign policy."--Choice "[An] important collection of essays by leading scholars. . . . Together the authors wonderfully capture the complex interplay between values, law, and American power."--G. John Ikenberry, Foreign Affairs Magazine "Beyond providing a highly valuable and innovative study of American exceptionalism, this book makes an original contribution to scholarship and may start a long overdue conversation with conservatives about the origins of their grievances with international human rights standards."--Michael J. Boyle, International Affairs oh yes – certainly… how dare Ignatieff bring discourse to the subject of “American exceptionalism” and Human Rights! To label the book, to label Ignatieff an “advocate for defying international law”… from the writings of a 2-bit blogger… shameful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 We shall see what happens. Iggy has a long and difficult road ahead of him. Yet his path is not as difficult as Harpers. Stevie the Wonder Politician is about to face some very real problems. I'm still waiting for the day the courts allow those boxes of documents to be opened. I'm planning a party much like a Super Bowl or Oscar party. Everyone guesses how many Conservative MPs end up in prison and the closest wins a chance to to be the first to photograph them in their orange jumpsuits. My guess is 62. Seriously though, I don't expect that Michael Ignatieff is going to be our great white hope. However, suggesting that his education and life experience means he can't do the job is delusional. However, he's building his reputation while Stevie is trying to live down his. The problem is, Harper's re-invented himself so many times, he has view options. Maybe he could try being a transvetite with a passion for goat's milk. The sweaters didn't work, maybe fishnet stockings are the answer. I don't know. Again, he did not get a stronger mandate. 850,000 Liberal voters stayed home. 170,000 Conservative voters stayed home. Harper drove Canadians away, Ignatieff just has to bring them back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 After listening to Obama last night speech, I say if it takes an American to be able to make an uplifting speech than I hope Iggy has some American in him, if he gets to the PMO! Obama made Americans proud to be an America again, after the mess of the Bush era. It's been so looooooong since an PM has inspired Canadians to be Canadians and I hope Harper takes notice because hasn't inspire Canadians through this recession except to say, its a good time to invest in the stock market, which turn out to be WRONG! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 After listening to Obama last night speech, I say if it takes an American to be able to make an uplifting speech than I hope Iggy has some American in him, if he gets to the PMO! Obama made Americans proud to be an America again, after the mess of the Bush era. It's been so looooooong since an PM has inspired Canadians to be Canadians and I hope Harper takes notice because hasn't inspire Canadians through this recession except to say, its a good time to invest in the stock market, which turn out to be WRONG! I am begining to understand you topaz you are looking for an empty suit to tell you what you want to hear in an uplifting speech, while doing the exact opposite of what they promised to do in the first place. Got it, I think I can have someone record a message for I have a suit that I can put on a dummy, propit up on stage for you to worship and fawn over, while listing to the recorded uplifiting message full of nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 To label the book, to label Ignatieff an “advocate for defying international law”… from the writings of a 2-bit blogger… shameful. It looks like the 2-bit blogger has quite the job in Premier McGuinty's government. Michael Stickings Senior Policy Adviser - DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS POLICY UNIT Ferguson Block 12th Flr 77 Wellesley St W Toronto ON M7A1N3 http://www.infogo.gov.on.ca/infogo/employe...e&locale=en As Stephen Taylor points out "Michael Stickings isn’t just some grassroots Liberal blogger, he’s a senior political adviser in Dalton McGuinty’s government! Stickings is listed as a senior member of McGuinty’s “Strategy and Results Branch” of his Deputy Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs." http://www.stephentaylor.ca/2009/02/some-m...n-the-guardian/ I don't know what to make of this yet. Why would Stickings, a high ranking adviser in Ontario's Liberal government, want to stick it to Ignatieff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I don't know what to make of this yet. Why would Stickings, a high ranking adviser in Ontario's Liberal government, want to stick it to Ignatieff? I'm sure he has his Raesons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 After listening to Obama last night speech, I say if it takes an American to be able to make an uplifting speech than I hope Iggy has some American in him, if he gets to the PMO! Obama made Americans proud to be an America again, after the mess of the Bush era. It's been so looooooong since an PM has inspired Canadians to be Canadians and I hope Harper takes notice because hasn't inspire Canadians through this recession except to say, its a good time to invest in the stock market, which turn out to be WRONG! Both Obama and Ignatieff went to Harvard. Ignatieff also taught at Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge. They know how to speak and how to strike a chord. It's a gift that is not an American trait but an intellectual one. They know how to inspire. I was always a proud Canadian but will no longer have to make excuses for Stephen Harper. Ignatieff will be on my 'because' list, not my 'in spite of' one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progressive Tory Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 while listing to the recorded uplifiting message full of nothing. Doesn't matter so long as it's uplifting. Obama represents hope...Bush only hopelessness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Looks like Ignateif is bring back the corruption in the Liberal party must of learned a little something while in the US from the democrats. Look who’s back in the partyWajsman returns to the Liberals after being ‘banned for life’ Beryl Wajsman is many things to many people: well-connected gadfly, perpetually angry newspaper columnist, silver-tongued orator with a weakness for Robert Kennedy quotations. To the Liberal Party of Canada, he was persona non grata, one of 10 people “banned for life” by former prime minister Paul Martin for being linked to the sponsorship scandal. It may seem strange, then, that Wajsman is once again in the party, as an organizer charged with bringing a variety of social groups and unions back into the Liberal fold. He has even consulted on policy issues and speechwriting for Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff. http://blog.macleans.ca/2009/02/25/look-wh...k-in-the-party/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Doesn't matter so long as it's uplifting. Obama represents hope...Bush only hopelessness. Hope without action results in the same outcome.....nothing happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) apparently, madmax is in recycle mode oh yes certainly how dare Ignatieff bring discourse to the subject of American exceptionalism and Human Rights! To label the book, to label Ignatieff an advocate for defying international law from the writings of a 2-bit blogger shameful. Ok, so my choices are "two bit blogger" vs Anonymous Posters who are Ignatieff apologists. If you don't like the article let the Author know. But one thing is certain, Ignatieff isn't viewed in the same light, around the globe, and in human rights circles as Liberals view him today. Much of Ignatieffs criticisms were written against him 5 years ago. It was important to many people to find someone with the courage to stand up to Bush and not be an apologist for him. The fact that Harper and Ignatieff shared the same position on Iraq isn't lost on anyone who isn't a dyed in the wool Liberal. I can't believe I had to strike that because of Capricorns post The fact that both Harper and Ignatieff have distanced themselves from a catastrophic and career ending position, one that was opposed by the majority of Canadians, isn't lost on me either. Edited February 25, 2009 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) It looks like the 2-bit blogger has quite the job in Premier McGuinty's government.Michael Stickings Senior Policy Adviser - DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS POLICY UNIT Ferguson Block 12th Flr 77 Wellesley St W Toronto ON M7A1N3 Now you got me speechless.... Edited February 25, 2009 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 But one thing is certain, Ignatieff isn't viewed in the same light, around the globe, and in human rights circles as Liberals view him today. and from this thread, says a 2-bit blogger - with an apparent McGuinty agenda... and an anonymous poster. Much of Ignatieffs criticisms were written against him 5 years ago. It was important to many people to find someone with the courage to stand up to Bush and not be an apologist for him. dipped into a little hindsight there, hey dipper? Is there really any more mileage you can squeak out of the Ignatieff Iraq position? What part of his accepting his own failed judgment aren't you quite accepting to, yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) dipped into a little hindsight there, hey dipper? Is there really any more mileage you can squeak out of the Ignatieff Iraq position? What part of his accepting his own failed judgment aren't you quite accepting to, yourself? It's just a funny way of questioning why Liberal cheerleaders are so hot on him right now. Somehow he's the savior of the Liberal Party yet his positions on virtually everything of importance have mirrored Stephen Harper's. Stephen Harper is criticized somehow of being Bush-Lite for these positions even though he's accepted his own failed judgement as well. When Iggy back pedals, however, it's because of his sage and humble nature and not because he's a snake like all the others looking to improve public opinion? RIGHT....... Besides, the guy's been Liberal Leader for like 3 months. He's done next to NOTHING as a politician thus far so we criticize him for what we do know about him. We know he's spent the last 40 years outside of Canada and that he only came back to run for PM. We know he caved into Harper's budget and only managed to put in a farty meaningless 'update' stipulation on it. We know he's about as hard to pin down as a greased up rabbit as far as his positions on most issues. These are the things we'll talk about because they're what we know. Edited February 25, 2009 by Moonbox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 and from this thread, says a 2-bit blogger - with an apparent McGuinty agenda... and an anonymous poster. Apparently so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) Looks like Ignateif is bring back the corruption in the Liberal party must of learned a little something while in the US from the democrats.http://blog.macleans.ca/2009/02/25/look-wh...k-in-the-party/ This could have used its own thread. I cannot understand how someone "Banned for Life" from the Liberal Party becomes the backroom boy for the leader of the Liberal Party? It reminds me of Karl Schrieber lurking around...... Edited February 25, 2009 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 dipped into a little hindsight there, hey dipper? Is there really any more mileage you can squeak out of the Ignatieff Iraq position? What part of his accepting his own failed judgment aren't you quite accepting to, yourself? LOL Little hot under the collar today? I would have commented on this, but, Moonbox outdid anything I could have written in reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 This could have used its own thread. I cannot understand how someone "Banned for Life" from the Liberal Party becomes the backroom boy for the leader of the Liberal Party?It reminds me of Karl Schrieber lurking around...... Give them a break, the Liberals are short on cash and need someone to help find where they hid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 We know he's spent the last 40 years outside of Canada and that he only came back to run for PM. We know he caved into Harper's budget and only managed to put in a farty meaningless 'update' stipulation on it. We know he's about as hard to pin down as a greased up rabbit as far as his positions on most issues.These are the things we'll talk about because they're what we know. True. We also talk about it because there's a chance he may become our Prime Minister. Harper's political accomplishments and failings have been hashed and re-hashed ad nauseum. We basically know where he's coming from and we have long formed our opinion of him. Ignatieff is a fairly new player on the political scene and it's natural that he would come under scrutiny, especially by pundits and keen observers. If Ignatieff doesn't start differentiating himself from Harper, Canadians will wonder if it's worth changing the government. For the most part, mainstream Canadians don't affiliate with the left, the middle, the right or a combination thereof. The majority choose their politicians according to how pleased they are with the public policies they offer. So far, the Conservatives have acted like a responsible and competent government on the Canada-US relations file. This is important to Canadians because they know our economy lives or dies by what transpires in the US and they view the economy as a top priority. Each new success the Conservatives rack up makes it more difficult for the Liberals to make the case to Canadians that they need to be replaced and that they offer a better alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 LOLLittle hot under the collar today? I would have commented on this, but, Moonbox outdid anything I could have written in reply. nope - call it mildly miffed at your apologist labeling... particularly when you can't be bothered to accept - to acknowledge - when your recycling attempts have already been trumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) This could have used its own thread. I cannot understand how someone "Banned for Life" from the Liberal Party becomes the backroom boy for the leader of the Liberal Party? I certainly don't feel very comfortable about it. Although never charged with anything, I found this guy to be part of the culture of cynical politics that got the Liberal party into trouble in the first place. Most of the moves in terms who who has been hired in the office of Ignatieff have been more surefooted. Ignatieff has to be very cautious about he brings into the fold. It would serve Ignatieff to bring in new people whenever he can to make sure that the culture in the office of the leader is geared to less cynical behaviour than what it eventually got to in the 1990s. Edited February 25, 2009 by jdobbin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 This could have used its own thread. I cannot understand how someone "Banned for Life" from the Liberal Party becomes the backroom boy for the leader of the Liberal Party?It reminds me of Karl Schrieber lurking around...... Wajsman vigorously denied any involvement, and was never charged with wrongdoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Each new success the Conservatives rack up makes it more difficult for the Liberals to make the case to Canadians that they need to be replaced and that they offer a better alternative. I think the Tories will be judged on their performance with the economy in this year. If things turn around, they will likely win. If they don't, they will have a hard time maintaining their hold on power now that the Liberals have removed their unpopular leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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