M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 could this imbalance in military power have anything to do with the $3 billion that US taxpayers pay every year to israel to create a more dominant military? Probably not given that between 1979 to 1983 the Soviets alone gave Syria $9.2 billion in weapons (as well as another billion from other nations) while at the same time US military aid to Israel amounted to....9.5 billion So that in the balance, ISrael had less military aid than Syria, athough without question better quality and as DoP points out, better used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 While it's clear you think I'm wrong, you failed to point out which of my statements was incorrect. To me this says you just don't like what you've read rather than having any real grasp of what I posted. Israel has a dynamic army with advanced command/control, an elite officer corp and excellent weapons (see: The Merkava). The Arabs have a system they picked up from the Soviets during the 70s and 80s where orders go up and down the entire chain of command before being carried out...if they get that far. Things like airstrikes and artillery might need to be planned for hours if not days in advance. Their weapons are comparable to the Israelis for the most part. The Iranian military has zero sense if the Iran-Iraq War is any guide. Charging machineguns is never a good idea no matter if one thinks Allah is on his side or not. However, desperate attempts to fix this over the last few decades might have bore some fruit. Maybe... Iran also suffers from a continuity problem with their military as there is quite the mix of exotic weapons from all over the world including the USA. Spare parts for their Western weapons are rather rare as you might imagine. ------------------------------- It's a Daisy. First off it's not the question of wether I disagree with you or don't. Afterall, we all have misconceptions and different opinions on this issue and whilst you're entitled to yours I will stand firm on how I read this. My point still stands. If you wanna brag on about how strong and mighty the Israeli air power is then why is it that they issue daily threats to attack Iran's nuclear facilities and seek to engage americans (BIG BROTHER) in this war on terror? If they're so powerful as you claim they are they can deal with it alone. People claim Iran's nuclear power is a danger to the rest of the world or atleast that's what the media feeds us 24/7. It may be a danger to Israel as Israel will lose its monopoly status in the Middle East it has enjoyed for many years but it doesn't affect me here in the UK nor Canada nor amercian citizens for that matter. Anyway this is a hypothesis as Iran doesn't even have a nuclear bomb to this date. You're also missing the fact that during the eight year war between Iran and Iraq the west armed Saddam's regime to the teeth to fight against Iran. Whilst Saddam gassed his own people and Iranian kurds back in the late 80s with the weapons provided by the west the whole world remained silent and put a zip on it! In essence, Iran was fighting the whole world not just Iraq and Saddam was then an ally of the west to sell the weapons . You wanna give me credibility you better read about Iran/ Iraq war. Second of all what is it with this nonesense that you guys talk about allah at every opportunity? I recall that lunatic Bush when he was still in the office made the same bold statements when he said GOD was on his side. So what? Allah is to the arabs god to you me and the rest of the world. IMO extremism on either side breeds extremism and we have plenty of our share here in the west in the form of some of our leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 You're also missing the fact that during the eight year war between Iran and Iraq the west armed Saddam's regime to the teeth to fight against Iran. The west armed Saddam to the toes. It was the east who gave por sold Saddam is tanks, planes and guns. Whilst Saddam gassed his own people and Iranian kurds back in the late 80s with the weapons provided by the west .... Wrong again. No one in the west sold Iraq WMD weapons. Saddam made those himself from civilian components. You wanna give me credibility you better read about Iran/ Iraq war. Good advice. If you want credibility I would suggest you take it. Second of all what is it with this nonesense that you guys talk about allah at every opportunity? I recall that lunatic Bush when he was still in the office made the same bold statements when he said GOD was on his side. So what? Allah is to the arabs god to you me and the rest of the world. IMO extremism on either side breeds extremism and we have plenty of our share here in the west in the form of some of our leaders. Ho hum.....*yawn* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 The west armed Saddam to the toes. It was the east who gave por sold Saddam is tanks, planes and guns. http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp http://www.brucekelly.com/saddam-hussein-iran.html Iran mounted offensives all along the border between the two countries, but especially in the south, where Iran tried to capture Al Basrah, Iraq's main port. Iraq resisted stubbornly, aided by donations and loans from other Arab states in the region and by arms from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) and France I would have thought that geo-politics of the region would place France in the heart of Europe (the West) although some would argue otherwise. Nevermind! Good advice. If you want credibility I would suggest you take it. Errrm after what you stated earlier...No thanks! Ho hum.....*yawn* Yup as expected a bunch nof drivel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 The west armed Saddam to the toes. It was the east who gave por sold Saddam is tanks, planes and guns. http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp http://www.brucekelly.com/saddam-hussein-iran.html Iran mounted offensives all along the border between the two countries, but especially in the south, where Iran tried to capture Al Basrah, Iraq's main port. Iraq resisted stubbornly, aided by donations and loans from other Arab states in the region and by arms from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) and France I would have thought that geo-politics of the region would place France in the heart of Europe (the West) although some would argue otherwise. Nevermind! Good advice. If you want credibility I would suggest you take it. Errrm after what you stated earlier...No thanks! Ho hum.....*yawn* Yup as expected a bunch nof drivel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 The west armed Saddam to the toes. It was the east who gave por sold Saddam is tanks, planes and guns. http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp http://www.brucekelly.com/saddam-hussein-iran.html Iran mounted offensives all along the border between the two countries, but especially in the south, where Iran tried to capture Al Basrah, Iraq's main port. Iraq resisted stubbornly, aided by donations and loans from other Arab states in the region and by arms from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) and France I would have thought that geo-politics of the region would place France in the heart of Europe (the West) although some would argue otherwise. Nevermind! Good advice. If you want credibility I would suggest you take it. Errrm after what you stated earlier...No thanks! Ho hum.....*yawn* Yup as expected a bunch of drivel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asphttp://www.brucekelly.com/saddam-hussein-iran.html I would have thought that geo-politics of the region would place France in the heart of Europe (the West) although some would argue otherwise. Nevermind! As i said, the west armed Iarq to the toes....90% of Iraqs weaponry came from the Soviets. France alone supplied a handful of mirage fighters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Not to belabour the point, but 95% of Saddams weapons came from the USSR bewtee 1973 to 79. During the Iran Iraq war 20% came from france and the remainder from the Soviets (68.5%) and from China... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyStone Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Not to belabour the point, but 95% of Saddams weapons came from the USSR bewtee 1973 to 79.During the Iran Iraq war 20% came from france and the remainder from the Soviets (68.5%) and from China... Dancer, Surely, you're familiar with the Iran-contra affair and the fact that the US sold weapons to both Iraq and Iran. Does that ring any bells at all, or are you going to stick with this story about all the weapons coming from France, USSR and China? http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Dancer, Surely, you're familiar with the Iran-contra affair and the fact that the US sold weapons to both Iraq and Iran. Does that ring any bells at all, or are you going to stick with this story about all the weapons coming from France, USSR and China? http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php Yes I am and it doesn't alter the fact that 99.9% of the arms received by Iraq at that time didn't come from the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) Not to belabour the point, but 95% of Saddams weapons came from the USSR bewtee 1973 to 79.During the Iran Iraq war 20% came from france and the remainder from the Soviets (68.5%) and from China... You're walking on a shaky ground here! First you said no involvement of the west now admittedly the french connection. % does not mean anything here whilst a lot more of these weapons can be traced to the west Edited February 25, 2009 by kactus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 You're walking on a shaky grounds here. First you said no involvement of the west .... Reading is hard? The west armed Saddam to the toes. It was the east who gave por sold Saddam is tanks, planes and guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 % does not mean anything here whilst a lot more of these weapons can be traced to the west I would like to see how you trace Soviet arms sales to the west....but have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerrySeinfeld Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Why are western conservatives so knee-jerk impulsive they would cut off their nose to spite their face?So paranoid that everyone is 'out to get them', incapable of complex thought, they see no solutions but immediate violence against someone ... ANYONE ... doesn't matter who or why, as long as we DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW!!!! So attention-deficit hyperactive and impulse-driven are the right wing that their brains are only used to keep their heads from collapsing! Their thinking never evolved past two-year-old temper tantrums! What assholes ... oops! I mean conservatives ... call "self-loathing apologist" is actually the process of using one's brain to think, to consider all sides of an issue, all possible actions, and taking the action that is possible to bring about improvement, instead of disaster. I know the process of using one's brain for thinking is foreign to the right wing, who prefer to bash their brains against brick walls instead. So ... leave the thinking to us and we'll call you when we need someone to bash their own brains out. k? Gee, the "impulsive knee jerk comment" is rich given that when only reagan and the commies had nukes, left wing liberals were all running around screaming armageddon and making movies like "the day after". Of course, now that muslims like Ahmedinijed have them, we're all cool and grown up about the "complexities" Give me a fucking break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I would like to see how you trace Soviet arms sales to the west....but have at it. You missed the point! It's not the soviets that I associate with the sales of arms to Iraq. Rather you implying that only 20% of arms came from the west or as you put it France only. I find that hard to believe which is why I question those stats unless you can substantiate on the claim. And are you telling me Rummy's handshake with Saddam in 1982 two years into the Iran/ Iraq war was just a coincidence. It looks more rather like shovelling some more arms contract up Sadam's arse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noahbody Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 IMO extremism on either side breeds extremism and we have plenty of our share here in the west in the form of some of our leaders. The difference is that in the West, death is feared; not a passport to sexy time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerrySeinfeld Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 And are you telling me Rummy's handshake with Saddam in 1982 two years into the Iran/ Iraq war was just a coincidence. It looks more rather like shovelling some more arms contract up Sadam's arse! So what. We fought on the same side as the USSR for a while too. Politics and war make strange bedfellows. I always get a kick out of it when people talk about the fact that Saddam used to be the US's sonofabitch for a while. The whole point of the Iraq war is to kill the sonofabitch system anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerrySeinfeld Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 The difference is that in the West, death is feared; not a passport to sexy time. Exactly. Radical Islam is a death cult. The fact that people try to compare a metastisizing, ultra violent death cult with a few milk-toast evangelicals is good for a laugh. Moral relativism. pfft! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Yes I am and it doesn't alter the fact that 99.9% of the arms received by Iraq at that time didn't come from the US. Well, being the Iran Contra affair, everything was done off the record and off the books, because well, you don't want a trace of that now do you? The US and the West has meddled in Iran far more than the opposite. Jerry Exactly. Radical Islam is a death cult. So are the Evangelicals. Which turns out is a pretty hefty size in North America. The whole point of the Iraq war is to kill the sonofabitch system anyway. No, the system still remains, it is just when those sonofabitches are no longer complying to the masters, regime change is required to put in a new loyal ass kissing sonofabitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Well, being the Iran Contra affair, everything was done off the record and off the books, because well, you don't want a trace of that now do you? The US and the West has meddled in Iran far more than the opposite. You do realize he was talking about Iraq, right? The soviet largesse towrds Iraq was in the billions and billions. IranContra was a drop in the bucket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 You do realize he was talking about Iraq, right? The soviet largesse towrds Iraq was in the billions and billions. IranContra was a drop in the bucket. Iraq Iran, pffff the only difference is a letter. East and West have been funding both sides in the middle east for a long time. They do this so they don't have to fight each other directly. They are all proxy wars for profit, on both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Iraq Iran, pffff the only difference is a letter. East and West have been funding both sides in the middle east for a long time. They do this so they don't have to fight each other directly. They are all proxy wars for profit, on both sides. I don't think that can be counted as one of the rpoxy wars. The US had poor relations with both sides and the Soviets had poor relations with Iran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Iraq Iran, pffff the only difference is a letter. East and West have been funding both sides in the middle east for a long time. They do this so they don't have to fight each other directly. They are all proxy wars for profit, on both sides. You are correct - I once reprimanded a high level arms dealer - "Earnie - your nice car and gold plated toilet were bought with blood money"....He replied .....regarding the old Iranian Iraq war...."I did nothing wrong, I saved lives" ---- I asked "how is that?"--------he replied "I armed both sides" ----------------there you go right from the horses mouth - he saved lives by assisting in the killing of twice as many people - I don't get ther rationale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 The difference is that in the West, death is feared; not a passport to sexy time. the difference is that a lot of these people have reached a living condition, ie; israel's brutal occupation that has created an open air prison for decades, where they're willing to sacrifice their lives in order to fight the occupation. i wonder how many of the surviving gazan children will be turning to suicide attacks after what israel did to them recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Gee, the "impulsive knee jerk comment" is rich given that when only reagan and the commies had nukes, left wing liberals were all running around screaming armageddon and making movies like "the day after".Of course, now that muslims like Ahmedinijed have them, we're all cool and grown up about the "complexities" Give me a fucking break. Gladly. Which arm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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