eyeball Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 They should stop. Palestinain leaders should encourage Palestinians to adopt other ways of dealing with their dispossession and occupation. I suggest small highly publicized group hunger strikes with the threat of escalating these into larger one's would be far more effective at motivating the world to pressure Israel to reconcile the differences they have with their hosts. I think appealing to humanity's humanity really is the only option. Should Palestinians choose this option they can count on me giving them as much support as I can humanly muster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Hamas is basically an organization very much like the Hagganah and the Hadassah - two of the foundations of Zionism in Palestine that preceded the declaration of the state of Israel. This is why they wre so successful in the last Palestinian elections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 They should stop. Palestinain leaders should encourage Palestinians to adopt other ways of dealing with their dispossession and occupation. I suggest small highly publicized group hunger strikes with the threat of escalating these into larger one's would be far more effective at motivating the world to pressure Israel to reconcile the differences they have with their hosts.I think appealing to humanity's humanity really is the only option. Should Palestinians choose this option they can count on me giving them as much support as I can humanly muster. Higgly has a point, one man's terrorist is another man's founding father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Higgly has a point, one man's terrorist is another man's founding father. If George Washington was like Hamas, and the English were like the Israelis, we'd all be chewing bangers and mash with crooked teeth. Hamas will never be founding fathers of anything unless they adopt a means of change more suited to the goal they are seeking. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 If George Washington was like Hamas, and the English were like the Israelis, we'd all be chewing bangers and mash with crooked teeth.Hamas will never be founding fathers of anything unless they adopt a means of change more suited to the goal they are seeking. -k I believe Higgly's quote compared Hamas to the founders of the nation of Israel. You may want to do some research in that area. A good place to start is by googling Irgun. -BCC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I believe Higgly's quote compared Hamas to the founders of the nation of Israel. You may want to do some research in that area. A good place to start is by googling Irgun. I am so used to hearing lefties reference George Washington in support of terror tactics that I guess I just responded reflexively. -k {I was cleaning it and it went off...} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I believe Higgly's quote compared Hamas to the founders of the nation of Israel. You may want to do some research in that area. A good place to start is by googling Irgun. -BCC The difference is that Menachem Begin and the Irgun were attacking their occupiers directly and they were able to change to better strategies when the opportunity for a Jewish State was becoming a real possibility -- face it! With Hamas, you guys are either allying yourselves with, or becoming the apologists and stooges for homicidal thugs who demand a ONE STATE solution, and have no intention of stopping the killing until they get what they want! A good indication of how important their lust for power is, is that they refused to allow the small contingent of Fatah soldiers in Gaza, to have their guns back or join in the fighting. Many observers in Arab media have already noted that Fatah performed much better in their conflict with Israeli Forces in the Battle for Jenin, a couple of years back. Hamas is piss poor as a government and as an army! The only thing they're good at is hiding behind civilians and refusing to allow them to be taken to Egyptian hospitals, so that they can wail about the civilian casualty toll! They are only good at propaganda victories.......at least with some people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I am so used to hearing lefties reference George Washington in support of terror tactics that I guess I just responded reflexively. No problem, it's refreshing to see someone actually admit to not knowing what they're talking about. I'm still a little baffled though seeing how Higgly's post was the one before mine and my post was only the third post in the thread. It's not like you had to dig to see what the discussion was about... -BCC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterDC Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I am so used to hearing lefties reference George Washington in support of terror tactics that I guess I just responded reflexively. -k {I was cleaning it and it went off...} You don't think the Americans and the British had their share of atrocities? The Americans abhorred the British so much that they wanted to be free.. Think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) The difference is that Menachem Begin and the Irgun were attacking their occupiers directly and they were able to change to better strategies when the opportunity for a Jewish State was becoming a real possibility -- face it! Face what? Hamas also changed tactics when their goal starting becoming a reality by dropping the call to annihalate Israel from their charter and by calling instead for a return to the 1967 borders. They stopped suicide bombings as well when they realised that they're more harmful to their cause than helpful. So there, you 'face it!' With Hamas, you guys are either allying yourselves with, or becoming the apologists and stooges for homicidal thugs who demand a ONE STATE solution, and have no intention of stopping the killing until they get what they want! A good indication of how important their lust for power is, is that they refused to allow the small contingent of Fatah soldiers in Gaza, to have their guns back or join in the fighting. Many observers in Arab media have already noted that Fatah performed much better in their conflict with Israeli Forces in the Battle for Jenin, a couple of years back. Hamas is piss poor as a government and as an army! The only thing they're good at is hiding behind civilians and refusing to allow them to be taken to Egyptian hospitals, so that they can wail about the civilian casualty toll! They are only good at propaganda victories.......at least with some people! Speaking of buying into propaganda, looks like you're just as guilty of what you're preaching against. Were you in Gaza to see all this first hand or are you going by what Israel says since they won't allow independent journalists into the area? You seem pretty sure that you know exactly what's going and I'm an ignorant for disagreeing with your monopoly on truth eh? Edited January 31, 2009 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) BC_chick: Face what? Hamas also changed tactics when their goal starting becoming a reality by dropping the call to annihalate Israel from their charter and by calling instead for a return to the 1967 borders. They stopped suicide bombings as well when they realised that they're more harmful to their cause than helpful. So there, you 'face it!' Would these borders be the ones before or after the Six Day War? Before...Egypt, Syria and Jordan have Gaza, West Bank, Sinai, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. After...Israel has Gaza, West Bank, Sinai, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. Re: Suicide bombers. A wall now blocks their paths if I'm not mistaken. ----------------------------------- Now imagine me in the Maginot Line---Sitting on a mine in the Maginot Line Now it's turned out nice again---The Army life is fine At night, myself to sleep I sing---To my old tin hat I cling I have to use it now for everything---Down on the Maginot Line... --- Edited January 31, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Would these borders be the ones before or after the Six Day War? Before...Egypt, Syria and Jordan have Gaza, West Bank, Sinai, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. After...Israel has Gaza, West Bank, Sinai, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.Re: Suicide bombers. A wall now blocks their paths if I'm not mistaken. Good point Dog. Seeing how Arabs consider GH to be Syria's, and Sinai to be Egypt's, I believe the 1967 borders are within Israel proper where the Palestinians consider to be Palestinian land. I recall an interview with the Hamas leader (the big guy, can't remember his name), right after winning the election in Gaza and he said he has will recognise Israel once Israel defines its own borders. So, let's not kid ourselves, Israel and Hamas are both playing that game. As for suicide missions, even while the tunnels were active there weren't Hamas suicide-bombings. I'm not saying rockets are peaceful, but they are less horrifying than suicide missions which wasn't garnering too much sympathy for their cause. Rockets are terrorising for Israel, but not very lethal. Even in the height of all those rockets launched during the Gaza war, less than 10 people died. Compare that to the damage of one suicide bomber. In any case, the discussion was about Hamas (vs. the terrorist founders of Israel) and whether or not they have evolved since coming closer to achieving their goal. Whether or not you're willing to admit it, they are not the same group who didn't accept Israel under any conditions and believed in suicide bombings as their means of achieving that. Does that make them a rosey bunch? Hell no. But evolved? Yes. Edited January 31, 2009 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 The tunnels gennerally lead to Egypt. It is very difficult to dig a tunnel into Israel. There are listening posts and such that often detect the ones into Israel while under construction. The Egyptian tunnels are actually a joint affair between mafias on both side of the Rafa crossing. Hamas has been known to take-over these tunnels for their own purposes. The cost of these things is upwards of $100,000 to build, so profits need to be made to continue the venture. The last suicide bombers intercepted were caught in the Negrev. It is thought they entered while the Rafa crossing was down some time back. I believe the 1967 borders are within Israel proper where the Palestinians consider to be Palestinian land. Well that's the kicker, isn't it? Gaza was part of Egypt at the time. The West Bank was part of Jordan. The 'Palestinians' missed the bus in 1948 by calling for war. That they killed Jordan's king for stripping the old Nazi Mufti of his rank didn't win them any friends in the rest of the "Arab World". But now the Arab World's blunders and attempts to "kill all the Jews" are for some crazy reason being placed on the Israelis. It's a funny ol' (Arab) World. ------------------------------------------ Achoo, achoo, we all fall down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) The tunnels gennerally lead to Egypt. It is very difficult to dig a tunnel into Israel. There are listening posts and such that often detect the ones into Israel while under construction.The Egyptian tunnels are actually a joint affair between mafias on both side of the Rafa crossing. Hamas has been known to take-over these tunnels for their own purposes. The cost of these things is upwards of $100,000 to build, so profits need to be made to continue the venture. The last suicide bombers intercepted were caught in the Negrev. It is thought they entered while the Rafa crossing was down some time back. Well that's the kicker, isn't it? Gaza was part of Egypt at the time. The West Bank was part of Jordan. The 'Palestinians' missed the bus in 1948 by calling for war. That they killed Jordan's king for stripping the old Nazi Mufti of his rank didn't win them any friends in the rest of the "Arab World". But now the Arab World's blunders and attempts to "kill all the Jews" are for some crazy reason being placed on the Israelis. It's a funny ol' (Arab) World. ------------------------------------------ Achoo, achoo, we all fall down... Your personal opinion of the Arab world notwithstanding, I don't see you refuting the fact that Hamas has evolved since its inception. Edited January 31, 2009 by BC_chick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hamas would not exist as a social agent in Palistine if the rest of the world would have stepped in and assisted the Palistinians with proper aid and moral support...and Israel would not exist in it's present form if they were not treated as spoiled brats and used as a weapon to destablize the middle east and to intentionally use the jews as hate objects - once you get a man to hate - you control him! Both sides are being abused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Your personal opinion of the Arab world notwithstanding, I don't see you refuting the fact that Hamas has evolved since its inception. The National Socialist Party evolved over time. Hamas is no different. -------------------------------------------- This is the time for the third uprising... Resistance will continue through suicide missions. ---Khaled Mashaal, Damascus, Syria, December 27, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 The National Socialist Party evolved over time. Hamas is no different.-------------------------------------------- This is the time for the third uprising... Resistance will continue through suicide missions. ---Khaled Mashaal, Damascus, Syria, December 27, 2008 Ah hawh! Hamas is no different - nor are the Israelis...or America for that matter - is and is becoming more national and more social ---- a ruling facist elite and all of us having sex with men - perfect.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Ah hawh! Hamas is no different - nor are the Israelis...or America for that matter - Hamas is no different than the National Socialists and Arab Nationalists who are their heros, Oleg. They even named their rockets after one of them. Mein Kampf is already popular in Gaza. Fact is that so-called "radical" Islamists* and National Socialism see eye to eye on many levels and have similar ulitmate goals. The Holocaust happened a blink of an eye ago, there's no way anyone can convince me that those days are gone forever. Right now it's only ironic to watch all you Hamas supporters (it's the children you're worried about...I know) cheer on what are in effect Nazi Terrorists attacking one of Canada's reasons for fighting WW2. But, it's only ironic so long, as it makes one wonder if the situation ever got to the same state as it was in WW2, who would be helping the fascists...who would keep quiet...who would die. Maybe I'd be knocking at your door, Oleg.... Or, you at mine........ Not so long ago, the Arabs were defacto Warsaw Pact nations working with the Russians Soviets to attack the Israelis, a defacto NATO ally. Before that, during the war, "radical" elements including the Palestinian Arab leadership worked hand-in-hand with the Third Reich to exterminate Jews in Europe least they show up in Jerusalem with a suitcase. As for America: It rebuilt Europe and Asia out of its people's own pockets more or less free of charge after WW2. That makes them pretty good eggs in my books. Pretty much picked up the tab for the Cold War, too. * And by Islamist I mean fellows .------------------------------------------------------------ Three cheers for the red white and blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Don't get me wrong...I am not a Hamas supporter...I don't approve of cut throat opportunists..who under the guise of human benevolence take advantage of the unaware. You are very correct...coming from a family that suffered the tail end of revolution and war - a father that served what ever side was winning that week...and a mother who shot Nazi wives out of revenge for a rape...and I will mention the bullet marks that both my parents had dotted on their bodies...one thing I know that most spoiled westerners do not understand -- It can happen here --- and we are not ammune to civil collapse and tyranny. I don't apporve of Nazis - Facists - Socialists - Trotskite idealogs nor badly behaved Jews....frankly ---- there are no good guys...and I will always be on the outside of the mainstream. Think of me as stern and pragmatic observer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 They should stop. Palestinain leaders should encourage Palestinians to adopt other ways of dealing with their dispossession and occupation. I suggest small highly publicized group hunger strikes with the threat of escalating these into larger one's would be far more effective at motivating the world to pressure Israel to reconcile the differences they have with their hosts.I think appealing to humanity's humanity really is the only option. Should Palestinians choose this option they can count on me giving them as much support as I can humanly muster. Ah, the Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King approach. Good idea and would work if the "Palestinians" were a real people rather than another group of tribes, just more subset of the Arabs. How would you feel if every tribe of FN's wer to decide they were entitled to some chunk of Canada and start "hunger striking". I guess free navigation on Yonge and Bloor would become a thing of the past. Realistically, Israel is here to stay, hunger strike or no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hamas is basically an organization very much like the Hagganah and the Hadassah - two of the foundations of Zionism in Palestine that preceded the declaration of the state of Israel. This is why they wre so successful in the last Palestinian elections. Remind me again, how many suicide bombers did hagganah use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) Ah, the Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King approach.Good idea and would work if the "Palestinians" were a real people rather than another group of tribes, just more subset of the Arabs. How would you feel if every tribe of FN's wer to decide they were entitled to some chunk of Canada and start "hunger striking". I guess free navigation on Yonge and Bloor would become a thing of the past. You make it sound as if Palestinians were a subset of humanity. How would you feel if you were regarded as such? My FN friends have no illusions about me going back to wherever my ancestors came from nor do they see any point in treaty settlements that simply transfer poverty from their village to mine. Realistically, Israel is here to stay, hunger strike or no. Exactly. Edited February 1, 2009 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 You make it sound as if Palestinians were a subset of humanity. How would you feel if you were regarded as such?They are people. They are also Arabs.My point is that not every subset of every ethnic group is separate or distinct enough to warrant "statehood". Whatever your beliefs about whether or not most Jews can trace their ancestry back to the Holy Land the Jews are now such a distinct entity that not long ago the majority groups in Europe, many of them professing to be Christian found it necessary to try to wipe the Jews out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 You make it sound as if Palestinians were a subset of humanity. How would you feel if you were regarded as such?My FN friends have no illusions about me going back to wherever my ancestors came from nor do they see any point in treaty settlements that simply transfer poverty from their village to mine. Exactly. The days of Israel being over privledged and protected are over...This last episode of over kill has exposed them as the arrogant nuts they are - they lost international credibility - They had over 60 years to make peace with their neighbours...and did not seem to have the will to do so. This stupid on going for eternity "peace process" is obscene................either make peace or shut up ---- The problem was never racial or religious - it was always economic....Let them show good faith and give a slice of bread to their Palistinian brothers and a glass of cool water --- and a decent wage instead of the fat asses subjugating them and wondering why they are hated ----time to love ----just like their ancient king of Judea suggested - love their enemies and the wars will end...It's logic. It's time that they understood that the Davidic line was quite nasty and the only good King it ever produced was Jesus the Christ...but they allowed the state of Rome to harm the real father of their old country.....and they still argue over the royal lands to this day ------ Love and lift the curse - they have no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Ah, the Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King approach. The question that needs to be asked more often is: why haven't they tried the nonviolent resistance approach? If it could work 80 years ago for Gandhi against the British Empire, I'm sure it would be a much more effective in this age of internet media! Mahatma Gandhi was able to go over the heads of the British political and military leadership, and go directly to the British public during a time when the only media were radio and newspapers. The success of the Civil Disobedience campaign hinged more on what sympathizers in England were doing to pressure their leaders to end the occupation of India. It has been pointed out a number of times that nonviolent resistance only works in democratic societies with relatively free media. It doesn't work in closed dictatorships, and the case of Tibet provides a good example of how ineffective Gandhi's techniques are against an authoritarian government that can easily put a stop to information they don't want their public to hear. Now, back to Palestine; there has been a flourishing peace movement in Israel for several decades that waits patiently for any sign of good news to start campaigning for a Two-State solution. During times when there are favourable signs that negotiations are possible, the peace movement grows -- when Israel is attacked by suicide bombers trying to kill and maim civilians, the peace movement is demoralized. Right now, a Palestinian Mahatma Gandhi could do what suicide bombers and Hamas rockets cannot -- get a Palestinian state. The next question is why do the Palestinians favour the most barbaric and ruthless strategies that kill off any good will they could hope to have on the other side, to fight futile attempts against Israel? There are likely many reasons; my own suspicion from my own anecdotal experience is that compromize is not a cultural virtue among Arabs. There were farmers and city dwellers in Palestine and the Sinai before a large number of Jews started moving in during the first stage of the Zionist Movement, but from the writings of people like Mark Twain, most of the "Holy Land" was made up of nomadic settlements, and not permanently occupied. The nomadic people of the land were considered culturally more pure than city dwellers, who were corrupted by materialism and a relative life of leisure, compared to those living out on the deserts and marshlands. Any cultural anthropologist can tell you that tribes who live a nomadic life and wander through areas with no natural barriers to protect them from invasion, survive and flourish by being stronger than their opponents. They would often have to fight other families who might want the land where they had pitched their tents and try to steal their livestock. So, I'm not offering this as anything more than my own opinion, but the way Palestine and the Arab World appears to me is that even though they have moved into cities, they are still trying to live out the values of their ancestors through a religion that most of them adhere to, which permanently enshrined warrior values of fighting and dying above cultural values that would be more suitable to the dangerous, overcrowded world we live in now.........now the trick is how to get them out of that mentality of acting like a bunch of sword-swinging nomads! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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