August1991 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) So, what's the consensus on this forum? It seems to me that there are only three possibilities. Edited January 26, 2009 by August1991 Quote
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 So, what's the consensus on this forum? It seems to me that there are only three possibilities. I really think that the budget will pass, though I expect with a little bit of back and forth. However, the spirit of non-confidence will remain, with the looming threat of a similar motion in the future. We should see a less partisan Stephen Harper, more willing to work with the opposition. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Moonbox Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 I'm almost certain it will pass and we will see another year of pre-election type government bickering between the Liberals and Conservatives, while the NDP and Bloc will continue nattering about nothing anyone cares about. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 I'm almost certain it will pass and we will see another year of pre-election type government bickering between the Liberals and Conservatives, while the NDP and Bloc will continue nattering about nothing anyone cares about. I hope not. Harper is no longer in a position to play antagonist. He only has his own Party's support and even that is wavering. If he tries to pull anything now we can only assume that he no longer wants to be PM or Leader of the Conservative Party. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Topaz Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 I think the budget will be good enough to be passed by the Bloc and the Libs, of course, there may be some amends to it. I can't see an election until October, it all depends on Harper tone in Parliament doesn't it. Quote
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 it all depends on Harper tone in Parliament doesn't it. Exactly. Harper is not only on probation with the Opposition, but also with the Conservative Party. I just don't know if he can live within those confines. It's not in his nature to be conciliatory. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Alta4ever Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Exactly. Harper is not only on probation with the Opposition, but also with the Conservative Party. I just don't know if he can live within those confines. It's not in his nature to be conciliatory. Funny to see that a liberal party supporter/member knows what is going on in the CPC better than the general membership of the CPC. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Progressive Tory Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 Funny to see that a liberal party supporter/member knows what is going on in the CPC better than the general membership of the CPC. I can only go by what I read in the papers. The Party blames Harper for the mess and have warned him to get them out of it, or else. Canada Press today states that they are putting out feelers for four possible candidates: Jean Charest, Bernard Lord (former Premier of New Brunswick), Jim Prentice and Peter Mackay. I'm a new supporter of the Liberal Party, but my years as a PC supporter gives me some insight as to the priorities of at least the Red Tories. Can't speak for the So-Cons. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Molly Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 I don't want to vote, because what WILL happen, what SHOULD happen and what I WISH would happen are three different things. (Moonbox called it. ) Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
ToadBrother Posted January 26, 2009 Report Posted January 26, 2009 I'm a new supporter of the Liberal Party, but my years as a PC supporter gives me some insight as to the priorities of at least the Red Tories. Can't speak for the So-Cons. They were trying for Mussolini, but apparently he's dead ;-) Quote
August1991 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Posted January 27, 2009 So, the general consensus of the 20 or so posters to this forum is that Ignatieff is a wimp. Ignatieff is about to abstain or vote in favour of Harper's budget. Quote
Smallc Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 So, the general consensus of the 20 or so posters to this forum is that Ignatieff is a wimp. No, it seems that he (and possibly Harper to some degree) is the only one willing to compromise. Quote
Riverwind Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 So, the general consensus of the 20 or so posters to this forum is that Ignatieff is a wimp.That is putting your own spin on it. My reading of the various news reports is Ignatieff has been consulted quite extensively and has pre-approved the budget just like the appointment for the new SCC justice was pre-approved.I realize that some people prefer the drama of a debate in the commons instead of behind the scenes horse trading but behind the scenes horse trading is the only way to make minorities work. There will be plenty of opportunities for Ignatieff to distance himself from Harper over the next 2 years without resorting to brinkmanship and threats to topple the government provided the conservatives remain willing to consult before legislation is brought forward. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
August1991 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) That is putting your own spin on it.True enough, but in the broader public, among people who don't pay close attention, it will appear that Ignatieff dissolved this coalition thing and went along with Harper.IOW, Harper is in command of the situation and Ignatieff's a wimp. Moreover, such a casual observor's conclusion is not that wrong. Ignatieff in fact is a wimp, and a flake. He doesn't really stand for anything. He has a condo in Toronto, a chalet in France and a job in Boston, or London, depending on circumstances. To compare, Pierre Trudeau, man of the world, retired to Montreal where he walked to work everyday and raised his three boys. Pierre Trudeau was no flake. Nor was Jean Chretien nor Brian Mulroney. Michael Ignatieff is a flake. Edited January 27, 2009 by August1991 Quote
Smallc Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 IOW, Harper is in command of the situation and Ignatieff's a wimp. Well, considering that its up to Ignatieff and the Liberals whether or not the government falls....well, I don't think that Harper is in full command if the situation. Quote
August1991 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Posted January 27, 2009 Well, considering that its up to Ignatieff and the Liberals whether or not the government falls....well, I don't think that Harper is in full command if the situation.It may be up to Ignatieff to decide this government's fate but even the few diverse posters here believe that Ignatieff will fold and give Harper the government.If you don't believe my portrayal of Ignatieff as a flake (sorry, Progressive Tory), you can consider the general optics of this situation for someone who doesn't follow politics closely. "The Liberals rant and roar, change leader, and then nothing happens." Harper wins. Quote
Smallc Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 "The Liberals rant and roar, change leader, and then nothing happens." Harper wins. Ignatieff will be doing what the people want right now. They want the parties to get along for the good of the country (the polls show that) and that is what they will see. Quote
fellowtraveller Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Ignatieff will be doing what the people want right now. They want the parties to get along for the good of the country (the polls show that) and that is what they will see. Ignatieff doesn't give a rats a** what the people think, other than the fact that they won't vote for him now. That is why he cannot risk an election, plus the realities that his party has no policies, no money and no momentum. He'd vote for Satan at this moment. Quote The government should do something.
Progressive Tory Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 So, the general consensus of the 20 or so posters to this forum is that Ignatieff is a wimp.Ignatieff is about to abstain or vote in favour of Harper's budget. Actually, my update this morning, is very clear about what Ignatieff and the Liberals want. Two priorities which were huge. 1. The true state of our books. The Liberals will not even consider the budget unless the Conservatives make this clear to the Canadian people. As it stands today, before any stimulus, we have a 13 BILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT. That has to go on record and cannot be neatly tucked away under deficit spending to stimulate the economy. That one is non-negotiable. (For me as well) 2. The budget cannot include any broad-base tax cuts that will extend the deficit once the recession is over. Ignatieff has always been very clear on this point. Recent polls have shown that Canadians do not want tax cuts - just infastructure spending. I know the budget includes the latter, but if the former is in play, the budget will probably be defeated. Hopefully, Flaherty is listening to the Canadian people and not his corporate cronies. Otherwise, he'd better see if they have a job for him, because he will no longer have this one. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Mr.Canada Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 I find it hilarious that just last week the entire Liberal camp here was saying that Ignatieff must vote down the budget and bring in the coalition but now they have changed their tune. Now they say we must support the budget to work together and bring relief to Canadians, which is what the Tory bandwagon has been spouting all along. I guess we were right on this one. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Molly Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Wall-to-wall rhetoric folks? That's pretty boring. There are knives to political throats all round. The very best reason for Ignatieff to let this budget pass is to let the Conservatives reap what they sow. Since we are looking at this ugly deficit in the name of stimulus- Heck, even if there was no deficit, but especially since there is (and it's a whopper)- then a bunch of stuff better show some serious sign of having been stimulated PDQ, - a handful of months at most- or the Conservatives will be rendered about as electable as the CHP. IMO, folks in here are seriously underestimating the magnitude of the economic hurt, and broke, stressed-out folks are very unforgiving. There's lag between events, and seeing the official numbers. When we have the economic descriptors in hand, I'm betting that many will be horrified. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Progressive Tory Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 I find it hilarious that just last week the entire Liberal camp here was saying that Ignatieff must vote down the budget and bring in the coalition but now they have changed their tune. Now they say we must support the budget to work together and bring relief to Canadians, which is what the Tory bandwagon has been spouting all along. I guess we were right on this one. WHAT? "the entire Liberal camp here was saying that Ignatieff must vote down the budget" The Liberals and Ignatieff have been saying all along that they were going to wait and see what was in it. Except for time of extreme provocation, like when the Parliamentary budget office told us the true state of the books, I've always said that I hoped the budget would pass, because the Cons shouldn't get off that easy. They spent a 13 billion dollar surplus and an additional 13 billion that we didn't have. This from a man who said he would never run a deficit. I don't know what Liberal camp you've been visiting, but the 'Tory bandwagon' has yet to come clean about our economy. 'We have a surplus...we will have a technical deficit...we may have a deficit...we could be in a depression...12 billion dollar defitict...30 billion dollar deficit....64 billion dollar deficit.' This budget has nothing to do with bringing relief to Canadians. It's all about saving Harper's job. Read the Calgary Herald. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Topaz Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 The TV news just reported that Canadians under $80,000 are going to get a tax cut but we have to wait to find out how much. The credit card industry is going to be told no more surprise increase fees. If the cities and municipalities have to come up with half of the money for rebuilding, that may not go forward and I know the Libs don't like that part. Quote
capricorn Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Recent polls have shown that Canadians do not want tax cuts - just infastructure spending. Please post the recent polls that show that Canadians don't want tax cuts. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Progressive Tory Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Please post the recent polls that show that Canadians don't want tax cuts. January 14, 2009: Canadians prefer avoiding tax cuts: poll By THE CANADIAN PRESS This one wants neither: "OTTAWA - A new poll suggests most Canadians want the government to avoid major tax and spending initiatives" http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2009/...8021041-cp.html http://www.torontosun.com/money/2009/01/14/8021526.html January 15, 2009: Poll Shows Canadians Favour Program Spending Over Tax Cuts http://www.economicnews.ca/cepnews/wire/article/210531 I can give you a dozen more if you need them, including one in my local paper with graphs. Only 18.2% of those polled wanted tax cuts of any kind. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
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