Ontario Teachers Federation and Dalton McGuinty

[ironstone]

I hate to see any group threatening strike action at any time but part of me finds it amusing to see the Ontario Teachers Federation holding a gun to Dalton Maguinty's head.They have turned down an extremely (way more than they deserve)generous offer by the provincial Liberals and are making threats.Here we go again.It's clear the teachers union firmly believes the Maguinty Liberals owe them big time,and they fully intend to collect.During the last couple of elections Maguinty was fond of pointing out "My wife is a teacher ya know".

Hey Dalton,how does it feel to be held hostage by a government union?

Why do ALL public servants feel that they should be completely immune during these tough economic times?They should be thankful they have such plum jobs with almost 100% job security.I suspect most public servants could not cut it in the private sector like the rest of us.What the hell do they have to complain about?

[85RZ500]

True enough. The education system is a bloody mess. I'd tell them that we're clawing back 20% of their income and that's for starters.

Can't remember the exact #'s but say 6 periods per day at 45 minutes each. That's 4.5 hours of class time our kids get.

And where else do you get nearly 3 months off per year.

If your sprout is slow or has an interest problem, we're told to get a tutor.

Whoa, we pay over 80 Large for the teacher to teach, why do I who makes 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 of their salary have to pay someone else to do their job?

Grrrrrrr

[guyser]

Whoa, we pay over 80 Large for the teacher to teach, why do I who makes 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 of their salary have to pay someone else to do their job?

Grrrrrrr

Probably because teachers are taught to teach, not engage in hyperbole...and thats what you are engaged in.

[KeyStone]

Probably because teachers are taught to teach, not engage in hyperbole...and thats what you are engaged in.

Well, I do agree that teachers shouldn't be asking for big raises, or other benefits now.

They should be asking to stay where they are, and maybe have their wage raises tied to inflation.

However, this nonsense that teachers work 4.5 hours a day, and have a super cushy position is nonsense.

You look at any corporate sector, where you have someone go in and train the employees. These people are often getting 100k a year.

Name one non-government teacher/instructor that makes less than what teachers get.

They also don't make 80k. That's the top salary - if they are the head of a department, have a masters degree, and 15 years of experience.

Teaching is not as easy as you think it is. You can't goof off, and surf the Internet and debate on political forums for instance.

All this teacher hate is ridiculous. They are smart people that work hard and they deserve a decent salary.

[madmax]

Well, I do agree that teachers shouldn't be asking for big raises, or other benefits now.

They should be asking to stay where they are, and maybe have their wage raises tied to inflation.

However, this nonsense that teachers work 4.5 hours a day, and have a super cushy position is nonsense.

You look at any corporate sector, where you have someone go in and train the employees. These people are often getting 100k a year.

Name one non-government teacher/instructor that makes less than what teachers get.

Wow, you can find people to teach and instruct between $9.75 and $15.00. As a supplier of training to a corporation a fee of $1,000 to 4,000/day is not unusual. But you sure as hell don't pay the instructor this amount.

Do not mistake a consultant for an instructor.

They also don't make 80k. That's the top salary - if they are the head of a department, have a masters degree, and 15 years of experience.

that is a fair number of teachers who have achieved a Masters Degree and 15 years of service. Regardless in the public school ELEMENTARY system you can earn $94,000.

Teaching is not as easy as you think it is. You can't goof off, and surf the Internet and debate on political forums for instance.

All this teacher hate is ridiculous. They are smart people that work hard and they deserve a decent salary.

They deserve what the public is willing to pay them for their work performed. The mere fact that you suggest that teachers are "smart" people leads one to suggest that those who don't teach are stupid.

Teachers have great difficulty earning a living in a field outside of teaching. Take them out of the classroom and things go downhill .... quickly.... for the vast majority.

Teaching is made to sound like it is a very difficult job. Many teachers haven't spent anytime in any other field or industry to compare their profession to another.

Teachers need a reality check. They receive an excellent pay check and have superior working conditions. They should thank their lucky stars for the position they are in.

But the gravy train cannot go on forever.

And yes, there jobs and cushy and anyone I know who has went into teaching from another field, really enjoys the work, the students (not all, and every class), and particularly the comfy hours of work and time off.

There are only a few times each term/semester that they have to put in a few extra hours.

It's a good life, good profession and Excellent pay, benefits, pensions and holidays.

Do not embelish the hardship of the teaching profession.

Life is good.....

[daniel]

How long has it been since the last teachers' strike? Can't remember. Seems like a few years or maybe even before the last Ontario election. Just goes to show how long relationships can last without being intentionally confrontational. With a Conservative government, there's been strikes and demonstrations every six months.

[85RZ500]

Well, I do agree that teachers shouldn't be asking for big raises, or other benefits now.

They should be asking to stay where they are, and maybe have their wage raises tied to inflation.

However, this nonsense that teachers work 4.5 hours a day, and have a super cushy position is nonsense.

You look at any corporate sector, where you have someone go in and train the employees. These people are often getting 100k a year.

Name one non-government teacher/instructor that makes less than what teachers get.

They also don't make 80k. That's the top salary - if they are the head of a department, have a masters degree, and 15 years of experience.

Teaching is not as easy as you think it is. You can't goof off, and surf the Internet and debate on political forums for instance.

All this teacher hate is ridiculous. They are smart people that work hard and they deserve a decent salary.

I didn't say they work 4.5hrs a day, I said class time. And actually I think now, with a sprout in gr8, that it's somewhat less.

I believe classes start at 8:20 and I know they end at 2:10, don't forget to minus out recesses and lunch. And they want to cut that back. The preset curriculum is unreachable and ends in a homework overload. We're not getting value for our money.

That said, thare are a few teachers that will go the extra mile to help the kids, they are the exception, not the rule.

And smart?. There are sub-performing people in all professions and lines of work. Your generalization is far too grand.

Edited January 18, 2009 by 85RZ500

[roof_top_eagle]

Well, I do agree that teachers shouldn't be asking for big raises, or other benefits now.

They should be asking to stay where they are, and maybe have their wage raises tied to inflation.

However, this nonsense that teachers work 4.5 hours a day, and have a super cushy position is nonsense.

You look at any corporate sector, where you have someone go in and train the employees. These people are often getting 100k a year.

Name one non-government teacher/instructor that makes less than what teachers get.

They also don't make 80k. That's the top salary - if they are the head of a department, have a masters degree, and 15 years of experience.

Teaching is not as easy as you think it is. You can't goof off, and surf the Internet and debate on political forums for instance.

All this teacher hate is ridiculous. They are smart people that work hard and they deserve a decent salary.

Sure they are smart, they are also overpaid, under performing, arrogant slobs. When I was back in school I was ridiculed and tormented by teachers Now sure the kids did their fair share as well but you don't expect a kid with a neurological disability to be teased and made fun of by the teacher.

Teacher's are paid well and really don't look at the bright sides of their jobs. Nice cushy chairs, government paychecks, unbelievable job security (I mean when did you last hear of government lay offs much less teacher lay offs?) and every conceivable vacation. Let's face it how many workers actually got "family day" off or even time and a half? I know I didn't.

If 80 large is top salary I want to get a piece of that action! who gets every single possible holiday off and vacation pay for it? Most jobs if you don't work you don't get paid, not teaching! I think the government should do away with unions for government staff. All they cause is trouble. look at Ottawa public transit, oh wait they are Government Employees right?

As for political forums and internet activity, don't teachers have computers in their offices now? I could have sworn when I did security in a high school that was being renovated while the alarms were off I saw computers at every teachers desk.

Now my opinion may have been marred by a school of bad apples but I really don't think they have room to complain. I'd do almost anything for that kind of job security matched with the vacation and benefits.

[tango]

Well, I do agree that teachers shouldn't be asking for big raises, or other benefits now.

They should be asking to stay where they are, and maybe have their wage raises tied to inflation.

However, this nonsense that teachers work 4.5 hours a day, and have a super cushy position is nonsense.

You look at any corporate sector, where you have someone go in and train the employees. These people are often getting 100k a year.

Name one non-government teacher/instructor that makes less than what teachers get.

They also don't make 80k. That's the top salary - if they are the head of a department, have a masters degree, and 15 years of experience.

Teaching is not as easy as you think it is. You can't goof off, and surf the Internet and debate on political forums for instance.

All this teacher hate is ridiculous. They are smart people that work hard and they deserve a decent salary.

People should know what they are talking about before they get carried away with exaggerations. This is Toronto public secondary teachers:

As you said, Dept heads are the ones at the top.

http://www.osstfd12.com/artman/documents/r..._coll_agree.pdf

Effective Feb 1 2008:

Step GroupIGroupIIGroupIIIGroup IV

0 40,612 42,500 45,969 49,225

1 42,757 44,754 49,056 51,896

2 45,245 47,354 52,320 55,073

3 47,731 49,959 55,578 58,261

4 50,563 52,894 59,017 61,959

5 53,388 55,852 62,447 65,658

6 56,217 58,794 65,881 69,351

7 59,054 61,729 69,316 73,057

8 61,884 64,677 72,747 76,748

9 64,712 67,620 76,184 80,449

10 67,544 70,558 79,621 84,147

And 4.5 hours contact time often carries more than that for preparation and marking and meetings and administrative paperwork and student/parent contact, etc etc etc

It always amazes me that there are people who think 35+35+35+35 teenagers a room (with you!) every day is "cushy". hahahaha!

I think it's the bowels of hell, but to each his/her own.

Thank god there are people who want to do it!

Edited January 30, 2009 by tango

[BigAl]

Well, I do agree that teachers shouldn't be asking for big raises, or other benefits now.

They should be asking to stay where they are, and maybe have their wage raises tied to inflation.

However, this nonsense that teachers work 4.5 hours a day, and have a super cushy position is nonsense.

You look at any corporate sector, where you have someone go in and train the employees. These people are often getting 100k a year.

Name one non-government teacher/instructor that makes less than what teachers get.

They also don't make 80k. That's the top salary - if they are the head of a department, have a masters degree, and 15 years of experience.

Teaching is not as easy as you think it is. You can't goof off, and surf the Internet and debate on political forums for instance.

All this teacher hate is ridiculous. They are smart people that work hard and they deserve a decent salary.

I attended high school in Ontario around the time that all the strikes were going on (nearly ten years ago now, I guess), and my opinion is this: a good teacher, you can't pay enough, because they're doing something essentially priceless. However, all I got out of it was a bunch of teachers who used their classrooms as political platforms to forward their own agendas. I didn't learn a damn thing that whole time, thanks to these people, and the few teachers I had who wanted to be there and particularly who wanted to run extracurricular activities (I was a theater major) risked being black-balled by the Union if they tried to do it anyway. To me, there's nothing at all good about that.

[say1988]

It always amazes me that there are people who think 35+35+35+35 teenagers a room (with you!) every day is "cushy". hahahaha!

I would say "cushy" in respect to virtually 100% job security (you have to really screw it up). It may take some time to get a full time job, but most do within several years. And it depended what you taught if the students are annoying, the idiots normally ended up with the lazy teachers, though.

Two month summer vacation every year, maybe 1.5 for a really dedicated teacher. Plus EVERY holiday, weekend, and extras. Most don't work 8 hours per day including prep. In high school they taught 3.75 hours per day with a 1.25 hour prep period. Most were at the school for less than 8 hours, and fewer and fewer are supporting extra-curricular activities.

Most teachers I had teach the same classes each year, many hardly have any prep time.

Many just go through the book and hardly know what they are doing.

As said good teachers are priceless, but the union recognizes that the government won't, and in many cases can't, hold out and they can get what they want. With the economy in this state you shouldn't be asking for more.

Edited January 30, 2009 by say1988

[Topaz]

Do you think it will be long before the computer will replace teachers in the classroom? Perhaps students could learn from home through the computer. Naturally, teachers would have to be around to answer questions. I always thought that part of the teacher pay, should reflect on how well the student did in class by their marks. I'm for smaller class room size, especially in high school. Why are they going to strike?

[BigAl]

Do you think it will be long before the computer will replace teachers in the classroom? Perhaps students could learn from home through the computer. Naturally, teachers would have to be around to answer questions. I always thought that part of the teacher pay, should reflect on how well the student did in class by their marks. I'm for smaller class room size, especially in high school. Why are they going to strike?

The idea of pay reflecting how well students do is unfortunately flawed -- already in this province we have a bad track record of passing students through who haven't learned the necessary skills to move on. My mother used to teach at a community college, and although this was in the 70s, she was literally dealing with students who were functionally illiterate. My own experiences in high school and university were similar...there seems to be this notion that everyone can and should attend an academic university, and therefore the trend is to ensure that all students have grades allowing them to do so. It's a larger problem than we are suggesting it is.

[madmax]

It's a larger problem than we are suggesting it is.

Unfortuneately you are the victim of the unnecessary Harris government vendetta against teachers. It was a terrible time to be in school and the Conservatives vision was to "create a crises" which they did. It wasn't the way to go about fixing a problem. Infact the Harris government didn't achieve much with this war on educators.

As for your teacher who wanted to teach your extra curricular activities. Its part of work to rule campaigns. They can support it or not. If work to rule is "effective" then all teachers benefit, including those who didn't participate.

The police force and other public servants engage in work to rule.

It wasn't a good time for you and our education system has never fully recovered from the contention. The only thing the Liberals have done is avoid controversy or create fights. But the system is still badly broken and is nothing like the system I went through before your time.

In the meantime, Wages etc continue to go up for teachers who do not recognise how disconnected they are from the current economic climate or the new wage economy. I don't know where the teachers believe the money is going to come from to pay them all this money.

It is not sustainable and the sooner they realize that fact, the quicker we can look for ways to find the funding to build a better education system, instead of just trying to appease a workforce that could be easily replaced if the were open to the same labour market conditions outside of the public sector.

[tango]

I suspect most public servants could not cut it in the private sector like the rest of us.

And you know that HOW? HMM???

If it wasn't for unions you'd still be slaving for $4/hr with no OHIP.

Count you blessings 'private' one, that you live in a province with strong unions.

Edited February 4, 2009 by tango

[Average Joe]

How long has it been since the last teachers' strike? Can't remember. Seems like a few years or maybe even before the last Ontario election. Just goes to show how long relationships can last without being intentionally confrontational. With a Conservative government, there's been strikes and demonstrations every six months.

The teachers unions have gone head to head with every party, the NDP (Bobby Rae), The Tories (Mike Harris) and now the Liberals and Dalton offered them double digits. Still not enough.

What's the common theme? Greedy unions shouting WE WANT MORE! We have a tough job, take the summer off and recover at the cottage why don't you. Give me a break you are not the only ones with a tough job.

[Oleg Bach]

The teachers unions have gone head to head with every party, the NDP (Bobby Rae), The Tories (Mike Harris) and now the Liberals and Dalton offered them double digits. Still not enough.

What's the common theme? Greedy unions shouting WE WANT MORE! We have a tough job, take the summer off and recover at the cottage why don't you. Give me a break you are not the only ones with a tough job.

Astounding - 80 thousand a year for some! It's always endearing when the teachers union states - it's about the children the dear dear sweet children. Meanwhile as they get more they assist in the incrimental impoverishment of adult tax payers...but then some liberal warm heart will invent the term "child poverty" - which is silly - there is only adult poverty and impoverished adults have poor children....I am really getting sick of every last agency - every other union using kids as hostages.

[Average Joe]

And you know that HOW? HMM???

If it wasn't for unions you'd still be slaving for $4/hr with no OHIP.

Count you blessings 'private' one, that you live in a province with strong unions.

Unions in the day were a good thing.

All they are good for these days is breeding entitlement and with that laziness follows. I see it everyday, people with seniority D-Fing all day long while juniors do all the work. The most senior guy was flaunting it and paid with his job because he took (stole) a 2 dollar fitting and was caught. Looks good on him, if he pulled his weight no one would have cared. He admitted taking the stupid 2 dollar part ( exact words "I took it so what, it only worth 2 bucks!"), they charged him with theft and fired him. The union ranted about it but in the end he's gone and might even have a record to boot.

I applaud the employer for coming up with a creative way of getting the dead wood gone. But that's what unions have done in the work place these days, no incentive to work hard or even do your fair share if you have seniority because if there are lay-off's the junior guy gets shown the door not the hard working guys at the top.

[Oleg Bach]

And you know that HOW? HMM???

If it wasn't for unions you'd still be slaving for $4/hr with no OHIP.

Count you blessings 'private' one, that you live in a province with strong unions.

Getting the mass to organize and gang up on the boss to make sure they were not going to be driven into the ground by crazed profiteers was a good thing. Adjustments have to be made and hopefully employers have the sense to take care of the people that keep them rich - but human loyality may be to much to ask for. Still - when my friend was getting paid 35 dollars an hour to tap a bolt with a rubber hammer...well - It's much like the new unions ----------computer button pushing corporate employees that get 2 hundred and fifty thousand a year and when asked what they do - they can not tell you...Unions are now called corporations and the teachers unions pension fund is held by a private corporation...so what's that about?

[bjre]

If it wasn't for unions you'd still be slaving for $4/hr with no OHIP.

Count you blessings 'private' one, that you live in a province with strong unions.

And it was the unions make many others can not find a job because many small bosses can not afford that salary.

So that a large part of $?/hr will become tax to support those who do not work.

[Topaz]

While we are at bashing unions and how they have 2 months off why not look at another group of people who aren 't unionized, they have paid weeks at times, they travel, all paid by th taxpayer and especially the last 3-4 years they are hardly in session, yes the Federal gov't! Just look at how much time they have been off and they make what any were from 110,000-250,000 not counting benefits!! I don't see how Canadians are any further ahead and the best thing about this job is you can vote within 24 hours to increase your pay!!

[madmax]

Unions in the day were a good thing.

All they are good for these days is breeding entitlement and with that laziness follows. I see it everyday, people with seniority D-Fing all day long while juniors do all the work. The most senior guy was flaunting it and paid with his job because he took (stole) a 2 dollar fitting and was caught. Looks good on him, if he pulled his weight no one would have cared. He admitted taking the stupid 2 dollar part ( exact words "I took it so what, it only worth 2 bucks!"), they charged him with theft and fired him.

That has nothing to do with a "union" it has to do with a thief. Essentially your arguement about "laziness" and "entitlement" spread much further then any "union". I can go into any workplace and hear those analogies and it has SFA with regards to a Union.

The company did its job and fired the theif.

The union ranted about it but in the end he's gone and might even have a record to boot.

There is no union contract that permits theft. There are grounds called Duty of Fair Representation, which means if the person wanted to be represented and the Union choose not to, or dropped the greivance because it was a cut and dried act of theft and they would lose in arbritration, the greiver can charge the Union. It happens, and ofcourse the greivor often loses these as unions follow due process.

I applaud the employer for coming up with a creative way of getting the dead wood gone. But that's what unions have done in the work place these days, no incentive to work hard or even do your fair share if you have seniority because if there are lay-off's the junior guy gets shown the door not the hard working guys at the top.

Every company wants to cut at the top. THose people have the most accumulated benefit and in many non union shops it is rare to see someone still around at the 20 year mark. Many companies have a policy not to keep anyone past 15 years.... you can discover the policy by looking around.

I have seen many a hardworking creative and contributing employee walked out the door, and it had SFA to do with work ethic. I have seen lazy no good useless employees find a way to stick around in a non union environment. Golfing with the boss is helpful. Being related even better.

There is no seniority clause that I am aware of that is based upon senority alone and doesn't recognise skill and ability. Thus when skill and ability are equal, Seniority will prevail.

If a company has a lazy employee, they have the means and the power to do something. I have seen many a company that has poor management and fails to act in a non union environment. Why should I expect any different in a Union Environment?

Perhaps you miss something....

People in Unions often volunteer their time to work on behalf of alot of their members problems. If someone is that pain in the ass, lazy piece of crap you speak of, there isn't one of these Union officials who want to be barking on behalf of a pointless exercise.

My problem with Unions is that they are too disconnected from the new workforce. That after the front line Union volunteers are some higher ups who have no idea how people in non union environments are getting shafted on hours, overtime, and being ripped off of 40% to 50% of their wages and have little hope of every unionizing.

My Problem with Rank and file union members is that they have managed to receive certain benefits that many places don't have, and yet, in order to protect their fiefdom, they will sell out new employees or work with the companies to allow Full Time Temps at 50% wages.

Obviously this occurs far more in non union shops, where wages are excellent and people want to protect what they have and also agree in the "social committees" that these full time temps are good for everyone.

Rank and File Union Workers don't pay attention to their unions. Rank and file workers don't care about the labour market until they find themselves out on their asses.

Then they say, wholly shit, what's happening out here? How did the average wage drop $14,000 ?

For me, I have watched many a person work like a dog for minimum wage. I have watched people work in many disciplines, some missing some important body parts.

As for D Fing??? I have been in the military, there is no union there. Some people are excellent puppy makers.

Going up that corporate cherry tree...., many people don't use as much energy as one server in a fast food restaurant.

Getting back to Teachers.... They often look for solidarity when the chips are down for them, and look towards private sector unions to back their fight. However, once its over, there is a history for them to go back to the word Association and behave in the same fashion as Police or Firefighters. We are not really unions

Teachers are able to mobilize a force capable of electing a Provincial Government. Yes they have been around the block.

Davis, to Peterson, to Rae (they didn't go for Harris, but they eventually got Eves out), and now are parked with McGuinty.

I don't expect them to move away from the Liberals anytime soon. Like most Ontario Unions they will stick with the Liberals.

Edited March 24, 2009 by madmax

[Visionseeker]

That has nothing to do with a "union" it has to do with a thief. Essentially your arguement about "laziness" and "entitlement" spread much further then any "union". I can go into any workplace and hear those analogies and it has SFA with regards to a Union.

The company did its job and fired the theif.

There is no union contract that permits theft. There are grounds called Duty of Fair Representation, which means if the person wanted to be represented and the Union choose not to, or dropped the greivance because it was a cut and dried act of theft and they would lose in arbritration, the greiver can charge the Union. It happens, and ofcourse the greivor often loses these as unions follow due process.

As a former adviser to union reps, I can attest anecdotally that clear-cut cases of theft meant that the wagons "shall not be circled". People in union shops (like people who are not in a shop) are frequent victims of theft: their lunch is stolen, their car broken into, or items taken from their desk or locker. While a small minority thinks it's cool to pluck from the employer, the majority knows that these are the very people who steal their sandwiches. When the twits get caught, most people are happy to see them go.

Every company wants to cut at the top. THose people have the most accumulated benefit and in many non union shops it is rare to see someone still around at the 20 year mark. Many companies have a policy not to keep anyone past 15 years.... you can discover the policy by looking around.

You got that right. My uncle worked in Canada for an American bank that failed in the 80's. The division he headed was one of the few that maintained profitability while the bank failed, and was bought up by one of our big five banks. Two months after the acquisition, he was laid-off because of "restructuring". In the end, the only restructuring the bank did was to eliminate all employees in the division over 45 and replaced them with staff in their early 30's.

My uncle tried to get another job in finance for 4 years. But he was 52 when he was fired without cause and nobody wants to hire an old man, especially one who was let go by the big five. He died of a heart attack at age 58. His job at the time was delivering flowers.

I have seen many a hardworking creative and contributing employee walked out the door, and it had SFA to do with work ethic. I have seen lazy no good useless employees find a way to stick around in a non union environment. Golfing with the boss is helpful. Being related even better.

Yep. My anti-union brother-in-law with an impeccable record and 11 years seniority got let go over the good-for-nothing nephew of the owner who was later charged and convicted of theft and embezzlement. The embezzlement was made possible by his assumption of my BinL's duties.

There is no seniority clause that I am aware of that is based upon senority alone and doesn't recognise skill and ability. Thus when skill and ability are equal, Seniority will prevail.

In theory yes. But I do have anecdotal experience that union politics can play a heavy part. However, I would also add that the employer quite likely intended to stoke such politics within the union, and the union simply took the bait. Regardless and in full disclosure, it was the episode which lead to my voluntary (and in protest) resignation as a consultant to the union.

If a company has a lazy employee, they have the means and the power to do something. I have seen many a company that has poor management and fails to act in a non union environment. Why should I expect any different in a Union Environment?

Now I am part of management in a union shop. And I must say that many managers are entirely ill-equipped and entirely untrained to manage people. It's actuallay quite astounding how bereft many are of basic empathy. To this group, every short-coming of the operation is blamed on laziness. It makes me want to puke. Almost half of these SOBs would easily drive a non-union operation into the ground. They are either unwilling or unable to recognize how they can stimulate productivity without threats. I just want to shout out "Hey, shit for brains! Look what I've got over here. Yup, that's productivity. What's behind it you ask, simple, respect."

My problem with Unions is that they are too disconnected from the new workforce. That after the front line Union volunteers are some higher ups who have no idea how people in non union environments are getting shafted on hours, overtime, and being ripped off of 40% to 50% of their wages and have little hope of every unionizing.

My Problem with Rank and file union members is that they have managed to receive certain benefits that many places don't have, and yet, in order to protect their fiefdom, they will sell out new employees or work with the companies to allow Full Time Temps at 50% wages.

Yes. And this sell-out will be there undoing. It will also have much wider consequences such as a lack of supporters in preventing pension failure. Very short-sighted, but you reap what you sow.

Obviously this occurs far more in non union shops, where wages are excellent and people want to protect what they have and also agree in the "social committees" that these full time temps are good for everyone.

Rank and File Union Workers don't pay attention to their unions. Rank and file workers don't care about the labour market until they find themselves out on their asses.

Then they say, wholly shit, what's happening out here? How did the average wage drop $14,000 ?

For me, I have watched many a person work like a dog for minimum wage. I have watched people work in many disciplines, some missing some important body parts.

As for D Fing??? I have been in the military, there is no union there. Some people are excellent puppy makers.

Going up that corporate cherry tree...., many people don't use as much energy as one server in a fast food restaurant.

Getting back to Teachers.... They often look for solidarity when the chips are down for them, and look towards private sector unions to back their fight. However, once its over, there is a history for them to go back to the word Association and behave in the same fashion as Police or Firefighters. We are not really unions

Teachers are able to mobilize a force capable of electing a Provincial Government. Yes they have been around the block.

Davis, to Peterson, to Rae (they didn't go for Harris, but they eventually got Eves out), and now are parked with McGuinty.

I don't expect them to move away from the Liberals anytime soon. Like most Ontario Unions they will stick with the Liberals.

Teachers are both educators and childcare providers. If we as a society want them to be more of the former than the latter, then we must be prepared to pay for it.

[Average Joe]

Max,

I guess you missed my point. I'm talking about people taking avantage of the situation, not culling the herd. I still see it all the time.

The place I was talking about had two or three guys with time in, out of about fifteen. They knew they were "safe" from layoff's, did hardly anything all day and waved it in front of everyone's face. They were laid off and the union got their jobs back and had to let some juniors go instead. You should have seen how big their heads got. They watched them like hawks until they screwed up and pocketed some stuff, two of the three were canned, union argued mildly because it was "just a couple of bucks". Guess what the third guy smartened up real quick watching his buddies walking out the door. They were so full of themselves up until then it was sickening.

Protecting a guy that has been around a while, IF he does his job, I have no problem with that. It's when they use the union as a "bodyguard" to protect their A**es while taking advantage of a workplace is just wrong.

[madmax]

Max,

I guess you missed my point. I'm talking about people taking avantage of the situation, not culling the herd. I still see it all the time.

If you are a human being with eyes, you will see people taking advantage of a situation. I can find many people in every level of management and shop floor worker who take advantage of other peoples labour.

The place I was talking about had two or three guys with time in, out of about fifteen. They knew they were "safe" from layoff's, did hardly anything all day and waved it in front of everyone's face.

Did they not have a boss? Does this company not have management, foreman, supervisors, or someone with the ability to discipline or fire those who do not perform their work as required? Do you work in a poorly run company that fails to make people perform their contractual duties?

They were laid off and the union got their jobs back and had to let some juniors go instead.

If they were laid off, layoffs are because of a lack of work, not because the workers are lazy. If you have a lack of work, and you work in a union shop with a skills and abilities provision, if the less senior workers didn't have a superior case, then yes, the most senior are kept. If they fail to do their dutys they can be disciplined up to and including termination. I see this all the time, it works very effectively. And then those less Senior workers can return and do the duties that some were not so inclined to perform.

You should have seen how big their heads got.

The company was in error. The Union doesn't bring back employees. That is done in an arbitration setting where the contract is ruled upon. If the company wanted to get rid of these said individuals, they went about it the wrong way. Very amatuer mistake.

They watched them like hawks until they screwed up and pocketed some stuff, two of the three were canned, union argued mildly because it was "just a couple of bucks". Guess what the third guy smartened up real quick watching his buddies walking out the door. They were so full of themselves up until then it was sickening.

All should have been fired. One guy is lucky. I would never allow a petty thief to remain in my employ, under any circumstances. The bond of trust is broken.

Protecting a guy that has been around a while, IF he does his job, I have no problem with that. It's when they use the union as a "bodyguard" to protect their A**es while taking advantage of a workplace is just wrong.

Become a steward. You sound like you have a head on your shoulders. Or if you are management, make certain you have evidence and grounds to terminate an employee.

I saw was a company that embellished a termination in mid arbitration. The person was in a car accident and severely injured. After 6 months the benefits were cut off by the company insurance company. Their meat charts had suggested that the said employee should be healed of his injuries by this time. However the doctors, and specialists all concurred that there was significant damage and the current medication made returning to work a danger. The company was not offering any light duties and wanted this tradesperson to come to work and lift 45lb dies and work on them. (They are not a piece of cake to work on).

What the company decided to do, was that based upon the Insurance companies decision to terminate benefits, they felt that the employee must be fit enough to return to work. They gave the employee 3 days to return to work for full time rotating shifts. If he failed to report, he was to be terminated. The employee showed up, and hobbling around, soon realized he couldn't do the work.

He was terminated.

The case was going very very well for the company. But then, out of the blue, the company introduced new evidence that the said person was a thief, and was stealing carbide to suppliment his income. The Union was rocked. The case wasn't going well, and the union wanted nothing to do with a theif.

The company provided the evidence. They had cut the lock off the employees toolbox, (it was still at the company because he physically able to take it away), and with no witnesses present the foreman discovered carbide inserts worth a small fortune in the toolbox, and promptly showed it to the plant manager.

The evidence was submitted. The union in its heels, the company about to win hands down. Except one problem, the dates are printed on the carbide inserts both when they are made and by whom.

The inserts weren't made by anyone in the plant. The dates on those inserts were over 6 weeks after the terminated employee had last set foot in the plant.

It was a frame job, credibility of the company lost and the fall guy was the supervisor acting on the companies behalf.

The company lost, the employee was able to return to work when able. The benefits were never reinstated, and the employee had alot of out of pocket expenses including medical over the next few months. Upon returning to work the employee then work, 4 hours then 6 hours then 8 hours until returning to full duties.

Shortly after getting some strength and monetary security back, the employee left for a better company, because he didn't trust the one where he got his job back.

A good toolservice person was lost over some peoples petty beliefs about how long it takes to recover from an major auto accident. And a supervisor lost his job over doing the companies bidding.

For every story you have of the puppy mill, I will match on the backs of good workers.

Edited March 27, 2009 by madmax