Why Are We Deporting Iraq War Resisters?

[gordiecanuk]

I know not all will agree with the majority of Canadians who want to see American war resisters granted asylum in this country, and all will not agree with the motion passed in our own Parliament to halt deportation proceedings.

But aren't we a democratic country? Doesn't democracy mean 'majority rule'? If 35-40% is enough to form a government in this country, then surely almost 70% approval for a policy and a motion passed in parliament is enough....Isn't it?

[bush_cheney2004]

I know not all will agree with the majority of Canadians who want to see American war resisters granted asylum in this country, and all will not agree with the motion passed in our own Parliament to halt deportation proceedings.

Would you keep the murderers, rapists, and child molesters too? Just asking.......

[Chuck U. Farlie]

They are not resisters - they signed up to be soldiers. War resisters avoid war at all costs, they don't join the army. These are war deserters.

Some of the more recent deserters signed up for the army when the US was already in Iraq, like this woman in Toronto being deported. She knew full well she would be sent there, then she couldn't hack it and went AWOL.

I don't think we need to be taking in people who volunteered for a position and then refuse to finish their contractual obligations. They are not refugees, they are cowards. Send them home to their democratic country with their own laws. We don't need them.

Also, where do you get your information that so many Canadians support these war deserters?

Edited January 10, 2009 by Chuck U. Farlie

[gordiecanuk]

Would you keep the murderers, rapists, and child molesters too? Just asking.......

Nah, the yanks can keep those.

[gordiecanuk]

They are not resisters - they signed up to be soldiers. War resisters avoid war at all costs, they don't join the army. These are war deserters.

Some of the more recent deserters signed up for the army when the US was already in Iraq, like this woman in Toronto being deported. She knew full well she would be sent there, then she couldn't hack it and went AWOL.

I don't think we need to be taking in people who volunteered for a position and then refuse to finish their contractual obligations. They are not refugees, they are cowards. Send them home to their democratic country with their own laws. We don't need them.

Also, where do you get your information that so many Canadians support these war deserters?

Angus Reid polling put the number at 68% in favour of granting asylum. I think it takes a lot of cajones to stand up for your pinciples. We're not talking about WWI or II here...we're talking about a war predicated on nothing but lies and false propoganda.

[ToadBrother]

I know not all will agree with the majority of Canadians who want to see American war resisters granted asylum in this country, and all will not agree with the motion passed in our own Parliament to halt deportation proceedings.

But aren't we a democratic country? Doesn't democracy mean 'majority rule'? If 35-40% is enough to form a government in this country, then surely almost 70% approval for a policy and a motion passed in parliament is enough....Isn't it?

Why on earth would we offer deserters asylum? These people freely joined the US military, and thus gave up a rather important right for the period of their membership. It would be one thing if these were people who had been drafted who objected to the war, but there is no draft in the US, and thus these people joined of their own free will.

Send them back.

[gordiecanuk]

I can post the info from Angus Reid if you want, the numbers are quoted in a summary with the poll methodology available in PDF form.

I know that some think that once you sign on the dotted line...that you have to obey all orders regardless of what an individuals conscience says....no worries.

But with a majority of Canadians favouring granting war resisters asylum, and a motion passed in our Parliament calling for the same thing...Shouldn't a democratic government follow through and recognize the will of both the people and parliament?

[ToadBrother]

Angus Reid polling put the number at 68% in favour of granting asylum. I think it takes a lot of cajones to stand up for your pinciples. We're not talking about WWI or II here...we're talking about a war predicated on nothing but lies and false propoganda.

That is rather irrelevant. In WWI and WWII there was a conscription. In this case it's a purely volunteer army. Members of the US military give up the right to choose what conflicts they'll fight in. This is quite separate from whether the war in Iraq was justified or not, but goes to the basic principle that a soldier has a duty to follow orders. It is not the soldier's job to decide what the foreign policy of his or her nation will be.

[gordiecanuk]

Why on earth would we offer deserters asylum? These people freely joined the US military, and thus gave up a rather important right for the period of their membership. It would be one thing if these were people who had been drafted who objected to the war, but there is no draft in the US, and thus these people joined of their own free will.

Send them back.

Zig Heil mein frueher...i signed so now i have to do as I'm told...okay, I understand your point of view. Glad you're in the minority.

[gordiecanuk]

That is rather irrelevant. In WWI and WWII there was a conscription. In this case it's a purely volunteer army. Members of the US military give up the right to choose what conflicts they'll fight in. This is quite separate from whether the war in Iraq was justified or not, but goes to the basic principle that a soldier has a duty to follow orders. It is not the soldier's job to decide what the foreign policy of his or her nation will be.

Understood...so if you sign up you forfeit your conscience and have to do what you're told no matter how morrally abhorant you find it.

[ToadBrother]

Understood...so if you sign up you forfeit your conscience and have to do what you're told no matter how morrally abhorant you find it.

You don't give up your conscience, but you give up the right to choose your conflicts. If it bothers you that much, then be prepared to spend some in prison. Running away to another country and begging for asylum when you're a member of a volunteer armed forces isn't standing up for your beliefs, it's simply running away like a coward.

[ToadBrother]

Zig Heil mein frueher...i signed so now i have to do as I'm told...okay, I understand your point of view. Glad you're in the minority.

Good grief. What a completely idiotic thing to say. It's a voluntary force, and at least some of these people joined up after the war. No one forced them.

[Riverwind]

I know not all will agree with the majority of Canadians who want to see American war resisters granted asylum in this country, and all will not agree with the motion passed in our own Parliament to halt deportation proceedings.

And how many Canadians would like to see a 'get-into-canada-free' ticket given to everyone from a country compulsory military service? Not many I bet. But these kinds of polls don't explain that we can't have one refugee policy for Americans with politically correct beliefs and another for everyone else.

In any case, they volunteered and the punishments are not that severe (a couple years in jail). If someone's conscious is really so troubled by the Iraq war then they should do the time. Much greater men and women have willingly choosen jail rather than compromise their beliefs. If they are not willing to do the same then I suspect their beliefs are not worth much and they are just a bunch of whiners that we don't want here.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Riverwind

[gordiecanuk]

Good grief. What a completely idiotic thing to say. It's a voluntary force, and at least some of these people joined up after the war. No one forced them.

So no matter what they're ordered to do, they should suck it up...do as they're told, pray they don't get killed and tuck their moral compasses away until discharged?

What I'm hearing is that democracy is all well and good so long as you agree with the politics of the majority, but if you disagree...well then good, to hell with democratic pincipals.

[gordiecanuk]

And how many Canadians would like to see a 'get-into-canada-free' ticket given to everyone from a country compulsory military service? Not many I bet. But these kinds of polls don't explain that we can't have one refugee policy for Americans with politically correct beliefs and another for everyone else.

In any case, they volunteered and the punishments are not that severe (a couple years in jail). If someone's conscious is really so troubled by the Iraq war then they should do the time. Much greater men and women have willingly choosen jail rather than compromise their beliefs. If they are not willing to do the same then I suspect their beliefs are not worth much and they are just a bunch of whiners that we don't want here.

Just curious...if we put it to a plebescite (sp?) and 2/3 of Canadians wanted to grant them asylum...Should our laws be a reflection of the democratic will of the country?

[betsy]

I think it takes a lot of cajones to stand up for your pinciples. We're not talking about WWI or II here...we're talking about a war predicated on nothing but lies and false propoganda.

It's all about principles, isn't it?

That this war is, "predicated on nothing but lies and false propaganda," is just your opinion. Anyway whether you're right or wrong...or whether you're against or for this war is not the point. These soldiers did sign up.

It's not for us to interfere how the US wants to deal with their awol soldiers.

[Riverwind]

Just curious...if we put it to a plebescite (sp?) and 2/3 of Canadians wanted to grant them asylum...Should our laws be a reflection of the democratic will of the country?

Why not have a plebicite on the refugee system in general? I suspect a majority of Canadians think the system is rife with abuse and should be severely restricted. For some reason, I suspect your appeal to a plebicite is only because you think you can write a question that will get the answer you want. I bet you would not support a plebcite on a question like: "Should Canada allow refugees from wealthy democratic countries?"

[Shady]

But aren't we a democratic country? Doesn't democracy mean 'majority rule'? If 35-40% is enough to form a government in this country, then surely almost 70% approval for a policy and a motion passed in parliament is enough....Isn't it?

I'll go along with that, if we also apply that to so-called gay marriage.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

You can't have a democratic army - nothing would get done.

If you are not prepared to take orders, then don't sign up for the army. A soldier can't choose which battles to participate in.

If you don't agree with the wars your army is fighting, then refuse to fight and go to jail for it and get your felony conviction. Don't go running to some other country like a coward.

I'm sure these deserters had no problem accepting their signing bonuses and free education, did they? Only when they had to do something for what they were given did they decide to run away.

Can you give me a link to this poll that you are talking about? I am curious to see the exact question that was asked. I doubt that the majority of Canadians want to harbour deserters.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Chuck U. Farlie

[gordiecanuk]

It's all about principles, isn't it?

That this war is, "predicated on nothing but lies and false propaganda," is just your opinion. Anyway whether you're right or wrong...or whether you're against or for this war is not the point. These soldiers did sign up.

It's not for us to interfere how the US wants to deal with their awol soldiers.

You missed all the "wepaons of mass destruction" speeches in the lead up? I understand your point of view, once a soldier signs up they have to obey orders no matter what they're told to do and no matter how it sits with them morally.

[bill_barilko]

I contribute to the Angus Reid polls all the time and don't remember ever seeing any question about US deserters.

No matter-they signed and if they don't like what they signed for there's a justice system in the USA to deal with that not our problem.

There are people in line for refugee status who are living in places with real problems, should someone who volunteered to fight in the US Army be accepted as a political refugee in place of someone from Sudan for instance?

Actually if those dorks had any brains at all they'd just go AWOL for a few weeks-arrive back @ base not having shaved or showered for a few days and in a few weeks they'd find themselves on the street having been quickly and quietly been booted out of the US military.

[gordiecanuk]

You can't have a democratic army - nothing would get done.

If you are not prepared to take orders, then don't sign up for the army. A soldier can't choose which battles to participate in.

If you don't agree with the wars your army is fighting, then refuse to fight and go to jail for it and get your felony conviction. Don't go running to some other country like a coward.

I'm sure these deserters had no problem accepting their signing bonuses and free education, did they? Only when they had to do something for what they were given did they decide to run away.

Can you give me a link to this poll that you are talking about? I am curious to see the exact question that was asked. I doubt that the majority of Canadians want to harbour deserters.

Here's the poll....Angus Reid Poll: Most Canadians Would Grant Permanent Residence to U.S. Military Deserters http://www.angusreidstrategies.com/polls-a...idence-us-milit

"Three-in-five Canadians (64%) say they would agree to give these U.S. soldiers the opportunity to remain in Canada as permanent residents".

Quebec (70%) houses the highest proportion of respondents who agree with the motion, while Alberta (52%) has the fewest supporters.

My mistake...I thought it was 68%, its actually 64%. I share that view, you don't have to agree. There's a pdf link for the methodology.

Edited January 10, 2009 by gordiecanuk

[noahbody]

I can post the info from Angus Reid if you want, the numbers are quoted in a summary with the poll methodology available in PDF form.

Please post the question that was asked. If the question uses "war resisters" it is flawed.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Please post the question that was asked. If the question uses "war resisters" it is flawed.

This is the question... I am very surprised about how many Canadians responded yes to it.

As you may now, the House of Commons recently passed a non-binding motion calling on the federal government to grant permanent residence to U.S. soldiers who fled to Canada after refusing to take part in the Iraq War. There are thought to be about 200 American military deserters in Canada. Do you agree or disagree with allowing these U.S. soldiers to become permanent residents of Canada?

[bush_cheney2004]

Nah, the yanks can keep those.

But they might face the death penalty...oh my....far worse than any punishment for a deserter.

Aren't Canucks also suckers for anyone facing the death penalty.

Please...you have to keep them....oh the humanity! (sobbing)