This Is Total B.S

bush_cheney2004 · January 10, 2009

I don't think the Canadians should be there, but at least we aren't slaughtering children left in right and blaming it on the Afghanis because they are too hard to find.

But they are there, working in concert with other NATO forces. And they have slaughtered children. Rationalizations won't bring them back.

When Canada starts killing hundreds of children in an attempt to kill terrorists, I'll start cheering for Afghanistan to win.

Not even that complicated....how many "children" do you think Canada killed in Operation Allied Force (Kosovo - 1999)?

Unlike Israel....Canada was never attacked.

Peter F · January 10, 2009

No immediate threat? What of the rocket attacks?

What of them? They're paltry little useless firecrackers that have been lobbed into Isreal for quite a few months now. They were'nt immediate danger 2 months ago and they arn't immediate danger now.

What is so effing crucial about stopping them that the hospital and everyone in it need be killed - before hamas fires that useless rocket again for the umpteenth time?

I got no problem with the IDF going to kill Hamas guys. The fools deserve whatevers coming to them for firing off explosives, paltry as they are, without regard for who, if anyone, ends up getting hurt by them. Sure, go kill hamas guys.

But it is also not crucial that the Hamas guys get killed right now if that means killing a bunch of civvies too. Its bad P.R.. Detrimental to the cause. Makes alot of enemies out of people who weren't your enemies before. Let Hamas make enemies that way.

Let them use civilians as shields and expose themselves to thier own people as the assholes they are. Why kill the cvilians and take that onus on Isreal. Patience. Isreal can get them long before Hamas has the wherewithal to be a threat to the Israeli state, and they can do it without killing everybody and thier dog.

But, as I have said, they are anyways and I'm wondering why.

bush_cheney2004 · January 10, 2009

What of them? They're paltry little useless firecrackers that have been lobbed into Isreal for quite a few months now. They were'nt immediate danger 2 months ago and they arn't immediate danger now.....

Easy for you to say...when may we start launching some useless "firecrackers" at your 'hood?

eyeball · January 10, 2009

Easy for you to say...when may we start launching some useless "firecrackers" at your 'hood?

When he occupies your's maybe?

You might want to consider appeals to humanity though, perhaps with hunger-strikes by individuals at first and then small groups. As for mass hunger-strikes...that's getting pretty extreme, I can see how some individuals or groups might want to try rockets first.

bush_cheney2004 · January 10, 2009

When he occupies your's maybe?

Excellent....Caledonia should start launching at Hamilton today! :lol:

You might want to consider appeals to humanity though, perhaps with hunger-strikes by individuals at first and then small groups. As for mass hunger-strikes...that's getting pretty extreme, I can see how some individuals or groups might want to try rockets first.

They have tried rockets first...how's that working out for 'em?

eyeball · January 10, 2009

They have tried rockets first...how's that working out for 'em?

Not good...the hunger strikers will probably have to target their own side first to convert it into a non-violent army.

A moral-war would probably be even more threatening to some people than the holy-war they're mired in.

Peter F · January 11, 2009

Easy for you to say...when may we start launching some useless "firecrackers" at your 'hood?

Whenever you like for whatever reasons please you. Fear not - our army is in Afghanistan There will be no 'right of self defence' on our part.

Mr.Canada · January 11, 2009

Well tomorrow is Sunday. The day of rest. We should all take time out to thank God we live in Canada, a country that is free. Try to get out to Mass tomorrow and take in His glory.

charter.rights · January 11, 2009

Well tomorrow is Sunday. The day of rest. We should all take time out to thank God we live in Canada, a country that is free. Try to get out to Mass tomorrow and take in His glory.

Just don't go behind the curtain with the priest. He may try to diddle your children.

Army Guy · January 12, 2009

This issue has myself and many of my section mates torn, not because we do not know right from wrong, but rather we have an emotional attachment.

We all agree that the Capt actions were wrong, be it murder or putting someone out of thier misery and pain. one done out of anger and spite, the other out of compasion. As an infanteer i can see both sides, seeing a comrad killed in action, brings about powerful emotions, that cloud normal judgement. just being in combat also clouds ones normal judgement, such as taking a life to ease suffering and pain becomes a compassionate thing to do and while that sounds cold and cruel, so is watching a guy in pain suffer until they pass from thier injuries....

The Laws are very clear on this matter, not only Canadian laws, but also the Genva convention. The Capt actions were wrong. that all being said is we don't know all the evidence, nor the entire story. This could only have come to light a couple ways. Thru the Capts patrol report, which he would have written himself, or another Canadian on patrol with him has come forward, i say that because the Afganis would not have said nothing, as it is common pratice to give no quater to the enemy.

This case is being watched very carfully by fellow soldiers, already leary about using some of the ROE, and other actions such as taking of POW's.....a Dangerous combo in combat...as hesitation kills, but also creates a fine line for soldiers, like not taking any POW's in combat period.

Not voters but I'd definitely like to see civilians involved in the proceedings. Using the military to investigate itself is no better than letting a police force investigate itself.

You should probably regard your own sentiment with a grain of salt. My suggestions are probably more audacious and insolent to you given your military background. I'm afraid I can't help that and I know how you feel. I've had occupations that are also deeply mistrusted by the public and its hard not to take this personally sometimes

I just want to piont out here that if he is charged with a federal offense, then the results of this military investagation will be handed over to federal authorities, and the member will be charged and tried in a civilian court.

This remark struck me the wrong way as well, you've said in the past that you support the military, but in this comment you clearly do not trust them. "Any" of them to conduct themselfs in a professional manner, by either bringing about justice or finding a solution ensuring that it does not happen again..Anyways sounds like your support is pretty thin....

As I said, the least we should be demanding is that our troops be restricted to their barracks in Afghanistan until such time as the deficiencies in public oversight the Semrau case have uncovered can be eliminated. The risk of making more enemies and unnecesarily putting Canada in harm's way are just too great to allow for more mistakes in judgement or worse.

This is not the first time you have mentioned Canada's reputation, or doing Canada harm. I'd like to remind you that alot of Canada's history, it's reputation, it's moral values have been written by our soldiers, alot more than say the common Canadian citizen acting by themselfs.....

As for making more enemies if we have'nt done that yet since we've been here , whats that say about our soldiers actions todate, locking them up in barraks sends what message.....to those that have given so much and asked for little in return....except maybe some respect and acknowledgement...locking them up is not the answer.

If Canadians are to put their good name forward and in harm's way it should be them who do so directly through a vote with a majority that is at least as large as is reserved for truly serious matters such as changing our electoral system for example. Say 60% in 60% of Canada's ridings. I know if I was a soldier I'd insist on no less to ensure I really had the support of Canada before risking my life, limbs or mental health.

You mean like this mission to Afgan, during it's conception a majority of Canadians where in fact in favour of the mission....where are we today, and what are Canadians doing about keeping thier good name out of harms way...from a soldiers piont of view, only a very few are concerned enough about our name to take any action, and so far it's been about how we handle POW's, or other minor problems....and when you put this into context ...say again'st sending our own countries soldiers, citizens into a war torn country, expected to take the fight to the enemy with wrong or useless kit.... it sends a clear message....

That whole "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" mentality really rubs me the wrong way, you dig? I don't care what happens in war -- people are people and they have motivations that seem right to them. The winner determines whether history records those motivations as "right" or "wrong". I think it's a poor reflection on Canada for guys like wulf to go off spouting that kind of rhetoric. I know it's an emotionally-charged issue, but "scum" and "sub-human" aren't terms that really apply.

It's because you have not been in combat, nor has the majority of your training been in closing with and destroying the enemy....and while it may rub you the wrong way, it is nessicary in war, to have that gung ho attitude, to demean the enemy, to create that mental state that they "the enemy" are sub human, scumbags....makes it easier to kill them....which is what our nation sent us over there to do....and while i do not agree with everything Mr Wulf posts, i do see where he's coming from....

I sure that if you have seen the death and destruction that these Taliban and other terrorist have brought upon thier own countrymen , not to mention upon your brothers in arms....then you may have a few chioce words yourself.

M.Dancer · January 12, 2009

Always good to have Armyguy's insights...

madmax · January 12, 2009

This issue has myself and many of my section mates torn, not because we do not know right from wrong, but rather we have an emotional attachment.
.......................

I sure that if you have seen the death and destruction that these Taliban and other terrorist have brought upon thier own countrymen , not to mention upon your brothers in arms....then you may have a few chioce words yourself.

This is a far cry from the 4000 pows who surrendered including 497 Al Qaida foreign fighters who were executed after being shipped in containers on trucks out into the desert. That is a crime which is unlikely to ever see the light of a courtroom clerk.

I suggest that it is too early to tell the outcome of this case, and that there could be many factors involved that need to be revealed when the time comes. Someone has to make a decision. Would he have been more humane to have let the Afghan suffer from his mortal wounds?

How can he be tried in a federal civilian court?

wulf42 · January 12, 2009

This issue has myself and many of my section mates torn, not because we do not know right from wrong, but rather we have an emotional attachment.
We all agree that the Capt actions were wrong, be it murder or putting someone out of thier misery and pain. one done out of anger and spite, the other out of compasion. As an infanteer i can see both sides, seeing a comrad killed in action, brings about powerful emotions, that cloud normal judgement. just being in combat also clouds ones normal judgement, such as taking a life to ease suffering and pain becomes a compassionate thing to do and while that sounds cold and cruel, so is watching a guy in pain suffer until they pass from thier injuries....

The Laws are very clear on this matter, not only Canadian laws, but also the Genva convention. The Capt actions were wrong. that all being said is we don't know all the evidence, nor the entire story. This could only have come to light a couple ways. Thru the Capts patrol report, which he would have written himself, or another Canadian on patrol with him has come forward, i say that because the Afganis would not have said nothing, as it is common pratice to give no quater to the enemy.

This case is being watched very carfully by fellow soldiers, already leary about using some of the ROE, and other actions such as taking of POW's.....a Dangerous combo in combat...as hesitation kills, but also creates a fine line for soldiers, like not taking any POW's in combat period.

I just want to piont out here that if he is charged with a federal offense, then the results of this military investagation will be handed over to federal authorities, and the member will be charged and tried in a civilian court.

This remark struck me the wrong way as well, you've said in the past that you support the military, but in this comment you clearly do not trust them. "Any" of them to conduct themselfs in a professional manner, by either bringing about justice or finding a solution ensuring that it does not happen again..Anyways sounds like your support is pretty thin....

This is not the first time you have mentioned Canada's reputation, or doing Canada harm. I'd like to remind you that alot of Canada's history, it's reputation, it's moral values have been written by our soldiers, alot more than say the common Canadian citizen acting by themselfs.....

As for making more enemies if we have'nt done that yet since we've been here , whats that say about our soldiers actions todate, locking them up in barraks sends what message.....to those that have given so much and asked for little in return....except maybe some respect and acknowledgement...locking them up is not the answer.

You mean like this mission to Afgan, during it's conception a majority of Canadians where in fact in favour of the mission....where are we today, and what are Canadians doing about keeping thier good name out of harms way...from a soldiers piont of view, only a very few are concerned enough about our name to take any action, and so far it's been about how we handle POW's, or other minor problems....and when you put this into context ...say again'st sending our own countries soldiers, citizens into a war torn country, expected to take the fight to the enemy with wrong or useless kit.... it sends a clear message....

It's because you have not been in combat, nor has the majority of your training been in closing with and destroying the enemy....and while it may rub you the wrong way, it is nessicary in war, to have that gung ho attitude, to demean the enemy, to create that mental state that they "the enemy" are sub human, scumbags....makes it easier to kill them....which is what our nation sent us over there to do....and while i do not agree with everything Mr Wulf posts, i do see where he's coming from....

I sure that if you have seen the death and destruction that these Taliban and other terrorist have brought upon thier own countrymen , not to mention upon your brothers in arms....then you may have a few chioce words yourself.

Well said Army Guy!!

Army Guy · January 13, 2009

How can he be tried in a federal civilian court?

In peace time, a military court is limited to which crimes it can proscute, for instance lets say in Canada a soldier commits murder, that soldier is arrested and held by the military, if the evidance is strong enough to warrent a trail, then in most cases that members is released from all his military duties, his paper work is then processed to release him from the military. which they are free to be tried as a civilian....

In special duty areas, or on operations the commanding officer does have the powers to try major federal crimes such as rape or murder, that member would then do time in a military instution, I'm not sure on the maximum sentence he is allow to serve in military prison, but it is not very long ...keeping in mind military prison and civilian prison are not the same, military prisoners don't have the same rights and privilages as do civilians prisoners do....after serving this sentence he would then be released from military prison and be once again tried as a cilvilian ...not for the same crimes i should add...allowing him to serve is federal time.

this does not happen very often as it is in the military best interest to get this person off the payrolls and tried as a civilian.

In times of war, military justice has greater roles and all crimes maybe tried but it gets a little foggy, as we have not really been at war for a long time, so i'd need to look it up.

BigAl · January 13, 2009

This issue has myself and many of my section mates torn, not because we do not know right from wrong, but rather we have an emotional attachment.
We all agree that the Capt actions were wrong, be it murder or putting someone out of thier misery and pain. one done out of anger and spite, the other out of compasion. As an infanteer i can see both sides, seeing a comrad killed in action, brings about powerful emotions, that cloud normal judgement. just being in combat also clouds ones normal judgement, such as taking a life to ease suffering and pain becomes a compassionate thing to do and while that sounds cold and cruel, so is watching a guy in pain suffer until they pass from thier injuries....

The Laws are very clear on this matter, not only Canadian laws, but also the Genva convention. The Capt actions were wrong. that all being said is we don't know all the evidence, nor the entire story. This could only have come to light a couple ways. Thru the Capts patrol report, which he would have written himself, or another Canadian on patrol with him has come forward, i say that because the Afganis would not have said nothing, as it is common pratice to give no quater to the enemy.

This case is being watched very carfully by fellow soldiers, already leary about using some of the ROE, and other actions such as taking of POW's.....a Dangerous combo in combat...as hesitation kills, but also creates a fine line for soldiers, like not taking any POW's in combat period.

I just want to piont out here that if he is charged with a federal offense, then the results of this military investagation will be handed over to federal authorities, and the member will be charged and tried in a civilian court.

This remark struck me the wrong way as well, you've said in the past that you support the military, but in this comment you clearly do not trust them. "Any" of them to conduct themselfs in a professional manner, by either bringing about justice or finding a solution ensuring that it does not happen again..Anyways sounds like your support is pretty thin....

This is not the first time you have mentioned Canada's reputation, or doing Canada harm. I'd like to remind you that alot of Canada's history, it's reputation, it's moral values have been written by our soldiers, alot more than say the common Canadian citizen acting by themselfs.....

As for making more enemies if we have'nt done that yet since we've been here , whats that say about our soldiers actions todate, locking them up in barraks sends what message.....to those that have given so much and asked for little in return....except maybe some respect and acknowledgement...locking them up is not the answer.

You mean like this mission to Afgan, during it's conception a majority of Canadians where in fact in favour of the mission....where are we today, and what are Canadians doing about keeping thier good name out of harms way...from a soldiers piont of view, only a very few are concerned enough about our name to take any action, and so far it's been about how we handle POW's, or other minor problems....and when you put this into context ...say again'st sending our own countries soldiers, citizens into a war torn country, expected to take the fight to the enemy with wrong or useless kit.... it sends a clear message....

It's because you have not been in combat, nor has the majority of your training been in closing with and destroying the enemy....and while it may rub you the wrong way, it is nessicary in war, to have that gung ho attitude, to demean the enemy, to create that mental state that they "the enemy" are sub human, scumbags....makes it easier to kill them....which is what our nation sent us over there to do....and while i do not agree with everything Mr Wulf posts, i do see where he's coming from....

I sure that if you have seen the death and destruction that these Taliban and other terrorist have brought upon thier own countrymen , not to mention upon your brothers in arms....then you may have a few chioce words yourself.

Thanks for your insights Army Guy -- I have a hell of a lot more respect for the opinions of a man in the field than of some chump behind a computer screen somewhere with a racist complex. Clearly, I recognize the implications of being "in the field", though I can't have any conception of what actually goes on out there being as I've never been in the situation. And I agree with your argument that this sort of mentality is necessary among troops in order to get the job done, so to speak. It just still bothers me on a bigger-picture level, that we still have to identify other humans as "the enemy". Idealistic, I'm well aware -- I guess the biggest problem is what happens when the war is over but the racist underpinnings continue? Quick example -- my dad is German in descent (his parents were immigrants); he was born in Canada thirteen years after the war ended, and yet he still got beaten up at school and his family was the target of localized racism (had their house spraypainted with swastikas, etc.)...my point is, do enemies stay enemies forever? I'd say that wulf42's mindset would promote that kind of intolerance from generation to generation. That's the part with which I take umbrage. But once again, thanks for bringing a new perspective to this issue.

Army Guy · January 14, 2009

Thanks for your insights Army Guy -- I have a hell of a lot more respect for the opinions of a man in the field than of some chump behind a computer screen somewhere with a racist complex. Clearly, I recognize the implications of being "in the field", though I can't have any conception of what actually goes on out there being as I've never been in the situation. And I agree with your argument that this sort of mentality is necessary among troops in order to get the job done, so to speak. It just still bothers me on a bigger-picture level, that we still have to identify other humans as "the enemy". Idealistic, I'm well aware -- I guess the biggest problem is what happens when the war is over but the racist underpinnings continue? Quick example -- my dad is German in descent (his parents were immigrants); he was born in Canada thirteen years after the war ended, and yet he still got beaten up at school and his family was the target of localized racism (had their house spraypainted with swastikas, etc.)...my point is, do enemies stay enemies forever? I'd say that wulf42's mindset would promote that kind of intolerance from generation to generation. That's the part with which I take umbrage. But once again, thanks for bringing a new perspective to this issue.

No Problem, glad i could help. I'm not trying to make excuses for anyones behavior or posts, just trying to give the board some insight on our ground forces. I aslo want to add that this racist attitude is not condoned by the government or military at any level, nor is it taught on any formal training program, it's normally introduced by a few instructors prior to deployment, or while over in theater. And not everyone is subjected to it, troops with no contact with the enemy or our own ground troops may not even be exposed to it.

But this is not the only place where a soldier can pick this attitude up. Seeing a comrad wounded or killed also changes how one looks at the enemy, attending one of the many Ramp cerimonies can do it as well. Seeing the devastion brought about by the enemy quickly forms your opinions on our enemies....War is a very different world, and it will consume you totally, change you, so much that those closest to you have no problems noticing it's effects....none of them are any good...unless you remain in combat. But returning back to a peaceful existance such as Canada and trying to fit back into everyday life in Canada is a strugle for everyone of our soldiers, and it takes along time to make that adjustment..Most do, few never do...

All one has to do is look at the history channel and listen to the interviews of the vets, you'll still here the words JAPS, Nips, Krauts, Nazi bastards, SS animals...Like i said War consumes you, changes you, it's effects are burnt into your memories to further punish you in the many years to come....Vets from WWII still have no problem reliving the tragic events that happend some 60 years ago, like it all happened yesterday.

To answer your Question do enemies stay enemies forever ? Ever soldier has a different experiance, so i can not answer for all soldiers but for me, it's going to be along while before i can forget, or forgive the Taliban or other terrorist groups running around here for what they have done, to thier own countrymen, and my comrads.

I'd say that wulf42's mindset would promote that kind of intolerance from generation to generation.

I'm not as carefull about passing on my dislike for the Taliban as i would like to be, and have often refered to them as scumbags, dirtbags on this very forum. Hell Mr Hillier has said as much on National TV,does that make it right.... perhaps not, but that being said, i've seen thier crimes up close and personal and those few discriptive words don't come close to discribing those that are capable of carring out the carnage and evil i've seen... i'm not talking about events that are apart of war, like IED's, shootings, death etc....i'm talking about events that go above and beyond events that only a twisted mind could come up with...

I do not talk about any of my combat experiences with my family, nor do i use degrading terms to discribe them " Taliban or terrorists" when they are around. taking the time to teach my son and daugters about right and wrong. however that is not the case when talking with my peers, and for some reason on this forum, which i can't explain why, as some kind of release i guess. But like i said before every soldier is different.

That's the part with which I take umbrage.

I do understand why, and here in Canada, in these present times you should take umbrage. I hope you some what understand my and perhaps Mr wulfs postion as well.

ToadBrother · January 14, 2009

To answer your Question do enemies stay enemies forever ? Ever soldier has a different experiance, so i can not answer for all soldiers but for me, it's going to be along while before i can forget, or forgive the Taliban or other terrorist groups running around here for what they have done, to thier own countrymen, and my comrads.
I'm not as carefull about passing on my dislike for the Taliban as i would like to be, and have often refered to them as scumbags, dirtbags on this very forum. Hell Mr Hillier has said as much on National TV,does that make it right.... perhaps not, but that being said, i've seen thier crimes up close and personal and those few discriptive words don't come close to discribing those that are capable of carring out the carnage and evil i've seen... i'm not talking about events that are apart of war, like IED's, shootings, death etc....i'm talking about events that go above and beyond events that only a twisted mind could come up with...

I don't think you need to apologize. The Taliban are what they are, a bunch of warmongering thugs who have plunged their country into a dark age, destroying its long history, enslaving its women and basically creating a reign of terror. Even after their fall from power, they continue to make Afghanistan a place of misery and death.

BigAl · January 14, 2009

No Problem, glad i could help. I'm not trying to make excuses for anyones behavior or posts, just trying to give the board some insight on our ground forces. I aslo want to add that this racist attitude is not condoned by the government or military at any level, nor is it taught on any formal training program, it's normally introduced by a few instructors prior to deployment, or while over in theater. And not everyone is subjected to it, troops with no contact with the enemy or our own ground troops may not even be exposed to it.
But this is not the only place where a soldier can pick this attitude up. Seeing a comrad wounded or killed also changes how one looks at the enemy, attending one of the many Ramp cerimonies can do it as well. Seeing the devastion brought about by the enemy quickly forms your opinions on our enemies....War is a very different world, and it will consume you totally, change you, so much that those closest to you have no problems noticing it's effects....none of them are any good...unless you remain in combat. But returning back to a peaceful existance such as Canada and trying to fit back into everyday life in Canada is a strugle for everyone of our soldiers, and it takes along time to make that adjustment..Most do, few never do...

All one has to do is look at the history channel and listen to the interviews of the vets, you'll still here the words JAPS, Nips, Krauts, Nazi bastards, SS animals...Like i said War consumes you, changes you, it's effects are burnt into your memories to further punish you in the many years to come....Vets from WWII still have no problem reliving the tragic events that happend some 60 years ago, like it all happened yesterday.

To answer your Question do enemies stay enemies forever ? Ever soldier has a different experiance, so i can not answer for all soldiers but for me, it's going to be along while before i can forget, or forgive the Taliban or other terrorist groups running around here for what they have done, to thier own countrymen, and my comrads.

I'm not as carefull about passing on my dislike for the Taliban as i would like to be, and have often refered to them as scumbags, dirtbags on this very forum. Hell Mr Hillier has said as much on National TV,does that make it right.... perhaps not, but that being said, i've seen thier crimes up close and personal and those few discriptive words don't come close to discribing those that are capable of carring out the carnage and evil i've seen... i'm not talking about events that are apart of war, like IED's, shootings, death etc....i'm talking about events that go above and beyond events that only a twisted mind could come up with...

I do not talk about any of my combat experiences with my family, nor do i use degrading terms to discribe them " Taliban or terrorists" when they are around. taking the time to teach my son and daugters about right and wrong. however that is not the case when talking with my peers, and for some reason on this forum, which i can't explain why, as some kind of release i guess. But like i said before every soldier is different.

I do understand why, and here in Canada, in these present times you should take umbrage. I hope you some what understand my and perhaps Mr wulfs postion as well.

I find your insights extremely educational. I am grateful that you took the time to respond so thoroughly and so intelligently on this topic. I will never understand what you and your fellow soldiers have had to see and endure -- and I suppose that's why you're doing it, so guys like me don't have to be in a position where they're exposed to it, and I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I have nothing but the deepest respect for all of you insofar as you're doing an unenviable job, and from what I have been lead to believe, for the most part you're doing it extremely well (i.e. Canada still has a pretty good international reputation even in the midst of armed conflict).

I think if it had been you who started this thread (which was originally about an Army Captain accused of a crime, if we all remember that), I would have had far less abrasive things to say in response, because it sounds to me that even though you may share some of wulf's feelings, you have dealt with them in a far more productive and positive way -- and that, maybe more than anything else, takes real class and real balls in my opinion. Thanks again.

eyeball · January 14, 2009

Perhaps the Taliban are made up of the wulfs of Afghanistan.

Do enemies stay enemies forever? Not if you completely obliterate them. There is a village near where I live inhabited by folks who are decsended from people that wiped out the original inhabitants right down to the last baby, about 600 years ago. They did this to avenge the rape of a chief's daughter. I asked the fellow who recounted the story to me why they couldn't adopt the kids or keep them as slaves and he responded that survivors might seek to regain their lost heritage or revenge. Lets face it, real lasting victory goes to those with the pagan ethos it takes to completely eliminate an enemy. I can understand why and how soldiers cultivate this ethos in the field but shouldn't a country do the same if it expects to win?

Instead of winning hearts and minds abroad Canada should be hardening hearts and minds at home.

BigAl · January 14, 2009

Perhaps the Taliban are made up of the wulfs of Afghanistan.
Do enemies stay enemies forever? Not if you completely obliterate them. There is a village near where I live inhabited by folks who are decsended from people that wiped out the original inhabitants right down to the last baby, about 600 years ago. They did this to avenge the rape of a chief's daughter. I asked the fellow who recounted the story to me why they couldn't adopt the kids or keep them as slaves and he responded that survivors might seek to regain their lost heritage or revenge. Lets face it, real lasting victory goes to those with the pagan ethos it takes to completely eliminate an enemy. I can understand why and how soldiers cultivate this ethos in the field but shouldn't a country do the same if it expects to win?

Instead of winning hearts and minds abroad Canada should be hardening hearts and minds at home.

Hardening hearts and minds in preparation for what? Genocide? I'm sorry if I'm misreading you eyeball, but it sounds to me like you're suggesting we need to wipe these people off the planet if we're going to "win the war". But where does that stop? I mean -- this isn't WWII where the lines in the sand were pretty clearly drawn...this is a war against an Idea or Concept ("Terror") with no set parameters on who or what the enemy actually is -- should we just kill everything in the Middle East just to be safe? I'd love for you to clarify this point a little in case I'm overstepping.

Army Guy · January 14, 2009

Perhaps the Taliban are made up of the wulfs of Afghanistan.

When i first read your post i nearly fell out of my chair....Eyeball the anti war, anti militarist, peace be with you, star trekey type of guy...

I doubt very much that any of the Taliban are made up of the Wulfs of Afgan, If wulf is who he says he is then he is a professional soldier. professional soldiers do not use children as sucide bombers, they don't skin a man alive to bake in the sun, they don't cut off little girls hands because she wanted to go to school. Terrorist do that, men and women with no value on human life, and will do what ever it takes to see thier goals accomplished.....And one of thier main goals is to enslave all of the Afgan people and enforce thier way of live upon them....

Edited January 14, 2009 by Army Guy

eyeball · January 14, 2009

When i first read your post i nearly fell out of my chair....Eyeball the anti war, anti militarist, peace be with you, star trekey type of guy...
I doubt very much that any of the Taliban are made up of the Wulfs of Afgan, If wulf is who he says he is then he is a professional soldier. professional soldiers do not use children as sucide bombers, they don't skin a man alive to bake in the sun, they don't cut off little girls hands because she wanted to go to school. Terrorist do that, men and women with no value on human life, and will do what ever it takes to see thier goals accomplished.....And one of thier main goals is to enslave all of the Afgan people and enforce thier way of live upon them....

What do you think the Taliban will be faced with if it does accomplish its goals, terrorists maybe? How long do you honestly think a government that does this to its people can survive? If you look closely at the star treky ethos of non-interference I've espoused in the past you'll notice I often allude to the idea that some cultures are very unlikely to survive on their own if left alone. We're presently supplying the oxygen the Taliban need to survive, without the west to rail against they'd be nothing. I think this is where Canadians really need to harden their minds and hearts.

In the meantime there are millions little girls elsewhere that could likely be saved without having to fire a single shot or risk soldiers lives or polarizing our own society in the process.

ToadBrother · January 14, 2009

Perhaps the Taliban are made up of the wulfs of Afghanistan.
Do enemies stay enemies forever? Not if you completely obliterate them. There is a village near where I live inhabited by folks who are decsended from people that wiped out the original inhabitants right down to the last baby, about 600 years ago. They did this to avenge the rape of a chief's daughter. I asked the fellow who recounted the story to me why they couldn't adopt the kids or keep them as slaves and he responded that survivors might seek to regain their lost heritage or revenge. Lets face it, real lasting victory goes to those with the pagan ethos it takes to completely eliminate an enemy. I can understand why and how soldiers cultivate this ethos in the field but shouldn't a country do the same if it expects to win?

Instead of winning hearts and minds abroad Canada should be hardening hearts and minds at home.

The Aryans conquered most the Indian Sub-continent without wiping out the locals. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes conquered much of the Isle of Britain, and recent genetic surveys indicates that the English have a very high percentage of Celtic genes, suggesting that the old stories about the Celts being driven into Wales and Scotland don't reflect reality. More often than not, invasions represent a mixing of the peoples, not a replacement, and quite often, as with the Turkish invasions, while language and culture may have the foreign stamp, the fact is that the populace still ethnically remains much the same as it did before the conquest.

eyeball · January 14, 2009

Hardening hearts and minds in preparation for what? Genocide? I'm sorry if I'm misreading you eyeball, but it sounds to me like you're suggesting we need to wipe these people off the planet if we're going to "win the war". But where does that stop? I mean -- this isn't WWII where the lines in the sand were pretty clearly drawn...this is a war against an Idea or Concept ("Terror") with no set parameters on who or what the enemy actually is -- should we just kill everything in the Middle East just to be safe? I'd love for you to clarify this point a little in case I'm overstepping.

I don't want to wipe out anyone myself, I'm just pointing out that when people do ruthlessly wipe out their enemies there is no more war, at least with them. At the same time, I believe that most cultures that become so ruthless they believe killing babies or little girls is required to survive end up dying out, usually by going to war with themelves in the end.

What WWII? Virtually the whole planet has been mired in one vast seemingly endless war for generations now. Afghanistan is just one more sucker, or root as the case maybe.

Alta4ever · January 14, 2009

The Aryans conquered most the Indian Sub-continent without wiping out the locals. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes conquered much of the Isle of Britain, and recent genetic surveys indicates that the English have a very high percentage of Celtic genes, suggesting that the old stories about the Celts being driven into Wales and Scotland don't reflect reality. More often than not, invasions represent a mixing of the peoples, not a replacement, and quite often, as with the Turkish invasions, while language and culture may have the foreign stamp, the fact is that the populace still ethnically remains much the same as it did before the conquest.

History is proof of all you say, just like the Inca people themselves did not disapear after conquest just the society it had created.

Victory in war doesn't mean the destruction of a people eyeball.