The Anti-Immigration Sentiment

[M.Dancer]

I had an aunty who was an immigrant..twice. Once when she moved here fron France and once when she moved from here to the US.

[xul]

I think one cause of the so-called anti-immigrant sentiment is because an individual's interest in a country does not always coincide with his country's interest. For example:

Let's presume there is a company named Canada, its CEO named Government, its board of directors named parliament and all its employees called Canaidan and every Canadian has some shares of the company so they can be considerd of the owners of the company, though just as other companies, not everyone holds the same shares.

The company is in a plannet where all people, from a CEO to a dustman, are the same. That means they all have same skin color, speak same lauguage, believe in same god, pursue same ideology, vote for same political party..... , so political, ideological, religious and cultural conflicts are not existence there and can be considered as factors.

But one day, the CEO and the board of directors decide to enlarge their company's business by the way of hiring more new hands. Their policy might benefit the company, but we could not suppose everyone in the company would welcome the policy and the new comers. Though all personnel of the company are the shareholders so they are supposed to welcome the policy for the raise of the benefits of the company will raise the value of the shares they hold, but they also are the employees of the company and in fact more new comers means more competition which would lead to wage cut. Due to not everyone holds the same share of the company, even if the policy benefits the company as a whole and the most of the shareholders will gain, but someone may still lose for the raise of the value of their shares can not compensate their loss caused by rising competition.

Edited January 6, 2009 by xul

[LesterDC]

If I were an immigrant, Canada would be the last place on earth I choose. The pure lain Canadian is lazy and self-rightous.

and you're still here because..?

[kimmy]

In my years at MLW, I can think of only a few members who were virulently anti-immigrant. MikeDavid00 and Craiger come to mind.

Other than a few people, anti-immigrant sentiment here is not a blanket dislike of immigrants, but rather a directed towards more specific aspects of immigration.

The most common complaint, I believe, is in regards to Muslim immigrants who may be unwilling to accept the realities of living in a secular society.

I think this is in large measure a result of seeing the downward spiral in Europe and being unwilling to allow Canada to fall into the same troubles.

and you're still here because..?

I assume it's because he's too lazy to leave?

-k

[85RZ500]

New here, seems like a great forum.

As to immigration, do we "hate" immigrants?

I think not, but, we have been struggling with health and education systems that are in the dumpster.

Does it make any sense to add more people to them?

We seem to want to cherry pick the cream of the immigrant crop.

Their home countries probably need them more than we do.

Then there's the Convenient Canadian, the one who's pasport is now a Get Out Of Jail Free card.

You know, they head back across the pond into the chaos from where they came. Get their butts in trouble, they run up the Maple Leaf and expect us to bail them out.

And someday we will have our own 9/11, it's a matter of time, LOL, mark my words.

[Argus]

I've been lurking on this board for a while now but haven't posted yet, but as I was browsing some of the older threads I really can't for the life of me understand the anti-immigrant sentiment on here. It's quite extraordinary.

Define "anti-immigrant".

There are people here who believe that anyone who questions any aspect of our immigraiton system is no different than the KKK or the Heritage Front. So the term seems almost infinitely elastic.

I've been to the US, and I've not seen this in most states other than illegal immigrants.as

Canada has a higher level of immigration than they do - than anyone on Earth does.

What's with quite a few Canadians trying to impose their hatred for anything different? By distancing yourself from an immigrant, you are fostering more hatred and isolation from the group.

Hatred for anything different? What exactly does that mean? I have to love the cultures of people who come here largely because their backward cultures have made a shithole of their homelands?

Immigrants also struggle (often more than others) to make their mark. They are often looked down upon by employers as someone who can't speak good English even though they usually do.

Funny. I've rarely met immigrants whose English would be realistically described as 'good". For the most part, their English is fragmentory, heavily accented, with poor grammar and verb tenses.

They are often paid lower wages than others and their degrees that they worked for many years in their countries here contrary to the US are worthless

Perhaps they are worthless. Many third-world countries have corrupt or backward education systems, and their qualifications are not up to our level. But even if you do have a degree, if you speak "taxidriver english", you probalby aren't going to be given a responsible position.

It was shown in a recent research that only 7% of all the welfare recipients in Canada are immigrants (mostly refugees) yet the attitude is as if most of the immigrants are leeching off of the system. I ask why is that?

Who did the study? Do you have a cite? How was the term "immigrant" defined? Did it include those who had been here several years and were now considered "Canadian". Somehow I doubt it. I know that if I go to any public housing project in an urban area I'm going to see mostly non-white faces. I know that the news is filled with pictures and videos of non-white faces commiting violent crimes. I know many people who have been victimized by non-white criminals. And I know almost all non-whites are immigrants. So what should that tell me?

What is your basic, whitebread Canadian supposed to think?

So I ask to those who are anti-immigrant here to speak up your arguments.

If you actually had any interest in discussion, as opposed to making accusations, you'd use the term "anti immigration" for it's considerably more accurate.

[Argus]

Please provide examples other than Toronto and Vancouver. We all know conservatives run them on these constituencies as non-minorities can't win.

We all know this, eh? Who is "we all"? Would that be ignorant, left wing people who get their news from their toasters?

[Argus]

I know that there are some people people on this forum who are condescending towards immigrants (Mr.Canada) and it sickens me.. To me, immigrants are as Canada as any other;

Some of us have higher standards than you.

[Argus]

During the last election (not this year's) I saw some stats saying that the Cons were the worst in both categories.

Cite?

[Argus]

The thing is, all of us, who live in this world, well, we're all people. There really is no black, white, etc, there are only people. Now, as people, we may think differently, we may act differently, but that doesn't change what we are. I have no problem with people of any colour that come from any place and I welcome them to this beautiful country.

Even the ones who want you dead because you're the wrong religion? Who spit on your wife because she's a whore - for wearing shorts - and who insist the laws be re-written in accordance with their cultural values?

[Argus]

Above all is humanity

Gag

Edited January 6, 2009 by Argus

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If this nation is to prosper we will have to increase both our population and productive capacity.

[Argus]

You actually think Immigration is actually hurting the economy?

There's no evidence it helps, that's for sure.

Let's see, 250,000 immigrants a year, $975/per person processing fee into government coffers.

Pennies compared to the billions spent on the immigration system, the various immigration courts and legal costs, refugee hearings, resettlment, language training, welfare, etc. etc.

Plus, CDN $2.5 – CDN $ 5.0 billion of foreign reserves that these immigrants bring along with them.

They do? And how long does it stay here? How much money is sent overseas from Canada every year by millions of immigrants sending money back to their homelands?

Plus, add to that, most will do the slave labour equivalent of working minimum wage janitor jobs that no one else will do.

Believe it or not, there used to be White taxi drivers, and White janitors, and White security guards. This was before the Seventies, when Trudeau liberalized immigration. Canadians did these jobs without much problem. The flood of immigrants meant a flood of unskilled labour, which lowered the value of all low skilled jobs to the point where immigrants - used to much lower standards of living, and without many options, wound up occuppying many of them.

The baby boomer generation are now taken care of by the money brought in by the immigrants. How else? We unfortunately live in a pseudo-socialist system where it is unsustainable as there are more taking the benefits than putting in (baby boomers).

The boomers definitely looked after themselves at the expense of their children. But it is mostly their children paying the price. The problem with immigration today is that the gap between their technical and language skill level and the requirements of the job market has now grown so great that unlike previous generations of immigrations, the ones over the past ten or fifteen years are doing worse, not better, than Canadians. And how much do you think a minimum wage earner pays in taxes? All those poor immigrants are not supporting the boomers. They are being supported, like the boomers, by the rest of us.

[Argus]

The current economic situation is only temporary, and at the end of it we'll still have a labour shortage. I'd be delighted to hear how you're going to fill that.

Lemme guess, make condoms illegal, right?

I have seen little to no sign of labour shortages. What I've seen are certain industry groups which like to bleat about a labour shortage in order to get the government to allow them to bring in foreign labour which will do the job much cheaper than they would have to pay in Canada.

[Argus]

Immigration is a foundation of Canadian society, we all know that.

Bull.

Reducing immigration during a period of economic difficulty...while it would make the 'red neck' fringe very happy, it would hurt us in the long run.

And you know this because... why again?

Canada's education system is sadly lacking in providing employers with skilled and technical employees. Sure we're great at producing students adept in the areas of Liberal arts and critical thinking, but that doesn't help a company desperately seeking someone who knows how to use java script or other specialized skills. Even in a recession there is demand for highly skilled workers...demand that our education system isn't meeting.

I feel zero sympathy for the high tech industry. All other industries realize you have to take workers young and train them. The high tech employers want people in all jobs who already have 5-10 years experience at that job, with that software, and are willing to work long hours for next to nothing. When they can't find such people, they immediately start screaming about labour shortages so they can find some Chinese or Indian guy who's willing to work dirt cheap.

The only real shortage is of tradesmen, carpenters, bricklayers, electricians, etc. But immigrants don't do that kind of work.

[Argus]

If this nation is to prosper we will have to increase both our population and productive capacity.

Why?

The nordic countries are all much smaller than we are, population wize, and seem to be as prosperous, if not more prosperous than we are. Meanwhile, Bangladesh and Nigeria have far more people than us, yet somehow, prosperity eludes them.

Do you think that maybe population size is not that important?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I have seen little to no sign of labour shortages. What I've seen are certain industry groups which like to bleat about a labour shortage in order to get the government to allow them to bring in foreign labour which will do the job much cheaper than they would have to pay in Canada.

There were big shortages in Alberta, but that has changed since the recession has kicked in. There were 20000 layoffs in Fort Mac in November, and there has been more than 20 billion dollars of investment withdrawn or put on hold.

Hey baby if Alberta feels a pinch, Ontario will be squeezed hard.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Why?

The nordic countries are all much smaller than we are, population wize, and seem to be as prosperous, if not more prosperous than we are. Meanwhile, Bangladesh and Nigeria have far more people than us, yet somehow, prosperity eludes them.

Do you think that maybe population size is not that important?

Argus, this is a huge nation with almost limitless wealth in its natural resources. Having said this we have a population density of 3.36 per square kilometer, Sweden has 21.69, Norway has 14, Finland has 16. Numbers do matter. Besides this you have to consider that 4/5 of our population lives within 100kms of the southern border. The north is unpopulated for the most part. That is where much of our mineral wealth can be found. We have the north to consider Argus, it needs to be developed. Perhaps that is where we should send immigrants?

[whowhere]

There were big shortages in Alberta, but that has changed since the recession has kicked in. There were 20000 layoffs in Fort Mac in November, and there has been more than 20 billion dollars of investment withdrawn or put on hold.

Hey baby if Alberta feels a pinch, Ontario will be squeezed hard.

How's that, what does Alberta do for Ontario?? Jackshit. Do I see work for "Alberta" being done here in Ontario?? Alberta provides no value for Ontario. Government leaches who draw their incomes from the Government don't count. How does Alberta contribute to Ontario's GDP?? very little. If anything Alberta has hurt Ontario's GDP because the Canadian Dollar was pushed up because of Alberta and hundred's of thousands of manufacturing Jobs in Ontario were lost. Loss of Jobs is a loss of GDP. What did Alberta do for Ontario's GDP when they were bleeding Manufacturing Jobs? ZERO. Alberta is a self serving province. Go to the welfare and soup kitchen line for all the rest of Canada cares.

[whowhere]

We seem to want to cherry pick the cream of the immigrant crop.

Their home countries probably need them more than we do.

Is this a joke. Country Rejects are not cream of the crop. They couldn't cut the mustard wherever they came from so they come here. Their home countries don't want them back because Canada did them a favor.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

How's that, what does Alberta do for Ontario?? Jackshit. Do I see work for "Alberta" being done here in Ontario?? Alberta provides no value for Ontario. Government leaches who draw their incomes from the Government don't count. How does Alberta contribute to Ontario's GDP?? very little. If anything Alberta has hurt Ontario's GDP because the Canadian Dollar was pushed up because of Alberta and hundred's of thousands of manufacturing Jobs in Ontario were lost. Loss of Jobs is a loss of GDP. What did Alberta do for Ontario's GDP when they were bleeding Manufacturing Jobs? ZERO. Alberta is a self serving province. Go to the welfare and soup kitchen line for all the rest of Canada cares.

The same argument can be turned against you now couldn't it. Let me put it this way. You and people much like you are the reason for separatist feelings in the west. I have heard much garbage on this forum but never have I heard that Alberta caused the loss of jobs in Ontario. Why not blame the failure of the auto industry on us as well? How about the financial crisis? Global warming? World hunger? What else has Alberta done to you?

[JB Globe]

Cite?

Stop being so partisan (you're pressing me for sources showing the cons looking bad when the other guy gets off free about making the cons look good).

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/compilatio...96-68f985128af9

House of Commons - 2006 - 2008

Political Affiliation

Number of Women

Liberal 23

Bloc Québécois 18

Conservative 14

New Democratic Party 12

(note that the cons have the most seats, but only 14 women, meaning they have the lowest proportion)

[M.Dancer]

Is this a joke. Country Rejects are not cream of the crop. They couldn't cut the mustard wherever they came from so they come here. Their home countries don't want them back because Canada did them a favor.

Yes, Frank Stronach couldn't cut the mustard back home....Lee Ka Lau couldn't cut the mustard either...Thomas Bata couldn't eve be a shoe salesman back home...Ed Mirvish? Pah! Michael Lee-Chin? He would probably be a trinket salesman....

Calling people who are ambitious motitivated risk takers, rejects is a joke, unless of course the person calling them such is a joke themselves...

[OddSox]

Believe it or not, there used to be White taxi drivers, and White janitors, and White security guards. This was before the Seventies, when Trudeau liberalized immigration. Canadians did these jobs without much problem. The flood of immigrants meant a flood of unskilled labour, which lowered the value of all low skilled jobs to the point where immigrants - used to much lower standards of living, and without many options, wound up occuppying many of them.

Immigration levels in the 50's were at least as high as today. Yes they were white - because they came from Europe. And many of them were unskilled and many were unable to speak English. But, just as todays immigrants do, the majority worked hard and managed to improve themselves.

The boomers definitely looked after themselves at the expense of their children. But it is mostly their children paying the price. The problem with immigration today is that the gap between their technical and language skill level and the requirements of the job market has now grown so great that unlike previous generations of immigrations, the ones over the past ten or fifteen years are doing worse, not better, than Canadians. And how much do you think a minimum wage earner pays in taxes? All those poor immigrants are not supporting the boomers. They are being supported, like the boomers, by the rest of us.

In the Seventies, nearly 75% of immigrants had a high school education or less. Now, over 50% have college or university. Also, the large majority of immigrants make the same money as everybody else. In 2005 the median family income for non-immigrants in Ottawa was about $85,000, versus $70,000 for immigrants. Less, but hardly 'minimum wage'.

Source: http://www.canadaimmigrants.com/statistics.asp and http://www.canadaimmigrants.com/statistics2.asp

[JB Globe]

Why?

The nordic countries are all much smaller than we are, population wize, and seem to be as prosperous, if not more prosperous than we are. Meanwhile, Bangladesh and Nigeria have far more people than us, yet somehow, prosperity eludes them.

Do you think that maybe population size is not that important?

I think he's talking about population GROWTH/DECLINE, which is linked to economic prosperity. All the Scandinavian countries have negative natural birth rates, but they use immigration (GASP!) to keep their population from shrinking.