The Anti-Immigration Sentiment

[JB Globe]

Is this a joke. Country Rejects are not cream of the crop. They couldn't cut the mustard wherever they came from so they come here. Their home countries don't want them back because Canada did them a favor.

Perhaps you can explain to me how for example, an Indian doctor (a profession pretty much considered sacred in India) who is at the pinnacle of Indian society, is a reject for choosing to come to Canada.

Or an Indian engineer who trained at IIT, which is harder to get into than MIT for that matter.

[Progressive Tory]

I believe the original thread was about attitudes toward immigrants. Yes, at one time we were all immigrants and Canadian culture includes bits and pieces from all groups. Most immigration was done in fluxes and it was natural that groups banded together to form communites, large and small.

However, I only agree in part, and I don't believe any single government should take the blame or the credit. In fact, most new immigrants share the social conservative values of many in the CP caucus, and they have been wooing them because of it.

What scares me though, when we're discussing immigrants and racism, are not the people who wear it on their sleeve, but the ones who harbour those views, when I least expect it.

We had a guest speaker at our recent Grandparents' support group, who is a prominent local attorney. He was there to discuss our rights, etc. However, when we least expected it, his attention changed focus. Maybe it was hearing of abandoned children or the fact that many of us are raising disabled grandchildren. I have no idea, but he started a rant about the future of the white race. He went on to say that immigrants in this country are having large families with 10 or more children, while white couples are opting for small or no families. We were being 'bred out' (his words)

We were all a little shocked, especially with the abrupt change in his demeanor. I learned that racism is alive and well in this country and was a little ashamed.

Canada is underpopulated and I welcome all newcomers.

[Ontario Loyalist]

So when the Italians came here and lived and still do among their own community, speak their own languages amongst themselves, continue living like they lived in Italy while benefiting from Canada's relative wealth and prosperity it is Okay but if some Chinese or a Muslim does that it's wrong?

Well, in terms of Italians, yes, I do think that it is somewhat of a problem. Try not jumping to conclusions that I'm being specific of non-white ethnicities. Also, "Muslim" isn't an ethnic group...

How much money do you think they bring in? $25,000, $50,000 or $75,000? Even if they are unemployed or underemployed, that money will dwindle easily. You must know unless you make $100k/year. I find it hilarious that you are trying to brush the issue aside as "they will get by, they have the money" when in reality, most are struggling and are at a breaking point.

Canada tends to accept high-skilled and professional immigrants. They have money. I'm not saying that all people who enter Canada do.

Do you know what it's like to get resume's declined for being "Over Qualified" by some and decline by others for not having any "Canadian Experience" even if they had US or UK experience? The issue is not brought up often as most are quiet, but like I said, the next generation born over the last 10 years and the next 5 years will not take this and you will hear more about them over the next couple of decades.

Honestly, when Canadian-born people are sending out hundreds and hundreds of resumes and searching for jobs for years, why should I care. If you have any understanding about Canadian immigration history, you'd know that the vast majority of immigrants back in the 1800s and early 1900s had similar problems relative to the type of industry that existed then. But many of them, when they couldn't find work or hack it at farming, would find whatever work they could...

Gangs, social unrest and dissent is caused due to this sort of upbringing until the Canadian government stops BS'ing around and actually does something about accreditation. The US system is much more fair and Canada should adopt such a system, I don't see how Canadian experience is superior than American?

A lot of gang activity though occurs as a result of the occurence of gang culture in the immigrant population. The Italian and Jewish mafia had roots in the Old World, and Asian gangs originate in Asia and are not the result of supposed racial discrimination in Canada. Part of the disconnect that immigrants feel is their fault, though; if they come to an English-speaking country, then they should be abile to speak English, and they should want to be Canadians and put Canada first. But in many cases this is just not the case.

[Ontario Loyalist]

Immigration is a foundation of Canadian society, we all know that. Reducing immigration during a period of economic difficulty...while it would make the 'red neck' fringe very happy, it would hurt us in the long run.

Honestly, you're not here to have a serious discussion if you refer to people who disagree with you as "red neck"...

[Argus]

Argus, this is a huge nation with almost limitless wealth in its natural resources. Having said this we have a population density of 3.36 per square kilometer, Sweden has 21.69, Norway has 14, Finland has 16. Numbers do matter. Besides this you have to consider that 4/5 of our population lives within 100kms of the southern border.

And our population denisity should rightly be considering only that one strip of land. Most of the rest of the country is pretty much uninhabitable anyway. Immigrants will not go there. They come from warm-weather countries, and find even the weather in BC harsh and cold. With virtually no exceptions, they go to Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa and a very few other large cities. Nor is there any way to force them out onto the tundra.

[Argus]

How's that, what does Alberta do for Ontario?? Jackshit. Do I see work for "Alberta" being done here in Ontario?? Alberta provides no value for Ontario. Government leaches who draw their incomes from the Government don't count. How does Alberta contribute to Ontario's GDP?? very little. If anything Alberta has hurt Ontario's GDP because the Canadian Dollar was pushed up because of Alberta and hundred's of thousands of manufacturing Jobs in Ontario were lost. Loss of Jobs is a loss of GDP. What did Alberta do for Ontario's GDP when they were bleeding Manufacturing Jobs? ZERO. Alberta is a self serving province. Go to the welfare and soup kitchen line for all the rest of Canada cares.

The oil wealth from Alberta winds up being taxed into federal coffers, and were it not for that money Ontario would be even more heavily taxed to support Quebec and the other welfare provinces.

[Ontario Loyalist]

If this nation is to prosper we will have to increase both our population and productive capacity.

There are various ways of doing that, though. Moreover, if you have a population that is largely native-born and who grow up and are educated in a given society, they tend to have a stronger connection to the nation and a more successful jobs and socially. But where is the incentive for native-born people when immigrants can simply come in and slot themselves into higher positions, and where's the national unity and will when immigrants centre their lives around their "communities"...

[Argus]

Stop being so partisan (you're pressing me for sources showing the cons looking bad when the other guy gets off free about making the cons look good).

You chose to make a statement, and I asked you to support it. But this discussion is about visible minorities. The cite you list below only speaks of women. I'm aware that women are underrepresented in the Tory caucus, but I have always heard that visible minorities were better represented in the Reform and then Alliance caucus than they ever were with the Liberals or NDP. It doesn't make sense to me that now that they have morphed and moved further to the left there is less representation. I'm not saying it can't be true, especially given the way they've been shut out of downtown urban cores in the major immigrant cities, but I have seen on evidence to support this.

[Argus]

Immigration levels in the 50's were at least as high as today. Yes they were white - because they came from Europe. And many of them were unskilled and many were unable to speak English.

News flash. This is not the 50s. Our demand for unskilled labour to work on farms and build the cities and expand production no longer exists. Most of those immigrants, btw, did speak English, and the others adapted much faster since they were from European cultures not all that dissimilar from ours.

In the Seventies, nearly 75% of immigrants had a high school education or less. Now, over 50% have college or university.

And in the Seventies a college diploma or university degree were a big deal. Now almost everyone has them. Try even becoming a cop today without college. The point is, and I will find the government stats I posted earlier if you disbelieve me, immigrants of this era are not doing nearly as well as those of previous eras, and their economic prospects are getting worse, not better. This is largely because in our highly technical urban environment communications and technical skills are required, not merely nice bonuses to have. And most immigrants from from places without much in the way of technical skills, and poor communications skills. A degree in something irrelevent, or from an institute not recognized are not of much use here either.

[Argus]

I think he's talking about population GROWTH/DECLINE, which is linked to economic prosperity. All the Scandinavian countries have negative natural birth rates, but they use immigration (GASP!) to keep their population from shrinking.

Oh, and what is their rate of immigration compared to ours? Perhaps we should acknowledge their succes and try to emulate them.

[Argus]

What scares me though, when we're discussing immigrants and racism, are not the people who wear it on their sleeve, but the ones who harbour those views, when I least expect it.

You mean like the co-worker who was aghast that a Somalian was coming to work for us, and who warned us that they were all thieves, incredibly lazy, and smelled badly because they never washed? He couldn't understand how we would let Somalis come to Canada at all.

But then, he was an Ethiopian immigrant so I suppose you'd have to excuse him. I mean, only white people are ever the least bit bigoted towards others, right?

Canada is underpopulated and I welcome all newcomers.

Are you saying Toronto is underpopulated? Because that's about where most immigrants go. Most of the rest go to Vancouver. Are you saying Vancouver is underpopulated? Would you support a law forcing all immigrants to go and live in the Yukon or the Northwest Territories so that they would not be so underpopulated?

[Argus]

del

Edited January 6, 2009 by Argus

[guyser]

News flash. This is not the 50s.

True that....we didnt need the farm workers then. We do now.

Our demand for unskilled labour to work on farms and build the cities and expand production no longer exists.

Our fruits and produce dont walk to the store when they are mature.

2004, 11,000 migrant workers pick, wash ,can , ship fruit produce. Most of the workers from Mexico ,T&T,Guyana and other Caribbean nations.

Canadian workers declined by 25% in the 90's. Maybe thats when the fruit walked off the tree, and then stuck a sticker on itself and climbed into the bin at Loblaws.

Fact is, we are a net exporter of apples tomatoes tobacco peaches cherries......

[whowhere]

The same argument can be turned against you now couldn't it. Let me put it this way. You and people much like you are the reason for separatist feelings in the west. I have heard much garbage on this forum but never have I heard that Alberta caused the loss of jobs in Ontario. Why not blame the failure of the auto industry on us as well? How about the financial crisis? Global warming? World hunger? What else has Alberta done to you?

You asserted if Alberta Suffers Ontario suffers. Actually, the opposite is true when you suffer Ontario prospers!! Low Oil = Low Dollar equals manufacturing Jobs in Ontario. High oil prices = High Dollar and no jobs in Ontario. Alberta brings in Foreign workers to do the work benefiting noone in Canada but Alberta. When Alberta starts relegating work to the rest of Canada than you will get some respect until then Fak u and Fak off.

[whowhere]

Perhaps you can explain to me how for example, an Indian doctor (a profession pretty much considered sacred in India) who is at the pinnacle of Indian society, is a reject for choosing to come to Canada.

Or an Indian engineer who trained at IIT, which is harder to get into than MIT for that matter.

ah, get in job in India?? oh you can't, strange. Country reject looks elsewhere.

[Ontario Loyalist]

True that....we didnt need the farm workers then. We do now.

Our fruits and produce dont walk to the store when they are mature.

2004, 11,000 migrant workers pick, wash ,can , ship fruit produce. Most of the workers from Mexico ,T&T,Guyana and other Caribbean nations.

Canadian workers declined by 25% in the 90's. Maybe thats when the fruit walked off the tree, and then stuck a sticker on itself and climbed into the bin at Loblaws.

Fact is, we are a net exporter of apples tomatoes tobacco peaches cherries......

I've read more than one account of how back in the 20s and 30s young men would find work on farms during the summer to pay their way through university. It's not pleasant work or high paying, but it is good and honest hard work and I regret now not having the desire to do something like this when I was younger. There needs to be some sort of program in order to promote this alternative and give potential workers some incentive. In a country country of 30 million, that we need to import 11,000 migrant workers is ridiculous...

[Progressive Tory]

You mean like the co-worker who was aghast that a Somalian was coming to work for us, and who warned us that they were all thieves, incredibly lazy, and smelled badly because they never washed? He couldn't understand how we would let Somalis come to Canada at all.

But then, he was an Ethiopian immigrant so I suppose you'd have to excuse him. I mean, only white people are ever the least bit bigoted towards others, right?

Are you saying Toronto is underpopulated? Because that's about where most immigrants go. Most of the rest go to Vancouver. Are you saying Vancouver is underpopulated? Would you support a law forcing all immigrants to go and live in the Yukon or the Northwest Territories so that they would not be so underpopulated?

Of course not. But maybe we need incentives to encourage more immigrants to move to other areas where there is a shortage of the skills they hold. When my Irish ancestors arrived in the mid 19th century, they were offered 100 acres of land for $ 3.00, provided they have a certain percent of the land cultivated within a certain time and commit a pre-determined number of hours to work on roads, etc. That's not realistic now, but a modified version is.

The lure for immigrants to remain in urban centres is community.

On the W-Five broadcast that was linked earlier in the thread, we learned of a pharmacist from Iran who had to start over. What if we paid for his education or provided a tax-free loan, if he would set up shop in an area where pharmacists were in demand. That would work for many occupations, especially in the health field, where there is a need.

I'm only talking about highly skilled immigrants who are currently under-employed because they choose to stay in Toronto or Vancouver. We can certainly benefit from those skills in other areas of the country. Then as they become more visible in other communities they are better able to assimilate themselves in the Canadian culture, which is pretty much a hodge podge anyway.

And yes, racism is not unique to whites.

[Argus]

True that....we didnt need the farm workers then. We do now.

Our fruits and produce dont walk to the store when they are mature.

2004, 11,000 migrant workers pick, wash ,can , ship fruit produce. Most of the workers from Mexico ,T&T,Guyana and other Caribbean nations.

Canadian workers declined by 25% in the 90's. Maybe thats when the fruit walked off the tree, and then stuck a sticker on itself and climbed into the bin at Loblaws.

I'm sure you feel, somehow, that you have a point - although like usual, your point escapes me. How in any way does this affect immigration - unless you're complaining that even with unemployed immigrants filling our urban housing projects we still have to bring in migrant farm workers to pick the fruit the immigrants refuse to.

[Argus]

Of course not. But maybe we need incentives to encourage more immigrants to move to other areas where there is a shortage of the skills they hold. When my Irish ancestors arrived in the mid 19th century, they were offered 100 acres of land for $ 3.00, provided they have a certain percent of the land cultivated within a certain time and commit a pre-determined number of hours to work on roads, etc. That's not realistic now, but a modified version is.

Why? If we want to encourage people to go and live in rural areas we can encourage native born Canadians to do so.

On the W-Five broadcast that was linked earlier in the thread, we learned of a pharmacist from Iran who had to start over. What if we paid for his education or provided a tax-free loan, if he would set up shop in an area where pharmacists were in demand.

Or we could do that for people who are actually Canadians and who are currently underemployed as waiters or store clerks. You know, those people who wasted their time taking Psychology or Sociology or some other dumbass liberal arts program.

[fellowtraveller]

When Alberta starts relegating work to the rest of Canada than you will get some respect until then Fak u and Fak off.

Hundreds of millions of dollars of design, financial services, engineering and fabrication work related to the oilpatch is done in other provinces.

But if you don't want the cash, no problem.

[kimmy]

ah, get in job in India?? oh you can't, strange. Country reject looks elsewhere.

The "country rejects" stay in reject countries. The best and brightest go someplace where their skills will be rewarded.

-k

[Progressive Tory]

Why? If we want to encourage people to go and live in rural areas we can encourage native born Canadians to do so.

Or we could do that for people who are actually Canadians and who are currently underemployed as waiters or store clerks. You know, those people who wasted their time taking Psychology or Sociology or some other dumbass liberal arts program.

What do arts programs or the Liberals have to with this? Or Psychology and Sociology grads for that matter? Med School grads of all nationalities in this Country are being offered incentives to hang their shingles in rural communities. They're being given houses, cars, (and maybe farmer's daughters or sons but that's for another topic). My point is incentives work and there is a place in Canada for all psych grads, etc. if they want to relocate.

You can get any degree in the military if you commit to staying on for 7 years, I believe it is, provided you have the aptitude. Could vary with occupation. My dentist got her degree in the military. Stayed for seven years and now has her own practice, and no student loans. Why couldn't it work in the public sector? Companies do it.

Again I'm only talking skills and a shortage of those skills.

[OddSox]

News flash. This is not the 50s. Our demand for unskilled labour to work on farms and build the cities and expand production no longer exists. Most of those immigrants, btw, did speak English, and the others adapted much faster since they were from European cultures not all that dissimilar from ours.

Umm, you were the one who brought up the 50s with your rant about 'white' cab drivers etc. By the way, my parents immigrated in 1953 and could not speak a word of English, as well as many of the parents of my friends.

[guyser]

I'm sure you feel, somehow, that you have a point - although like usual, your point escapes me.

Of course it would- you work in govt.

And apparently you dont want to even acknowledge what you wrote, and I responded to.

So, shall we recap then?

I responded to this....

Our demand for unskilled labour to work on farms and build the cities and expand production no longer exists

But we do have a demand for it.

Funny. I've rarely met immigrants whose English would be realistically described as 'good". For the most part, their English is fragmentory, heavily accented, with poor grammar and verb tenses.

Stats Can would disagree with you.

"Six months after their arrival, 58% of immigrants reported that they were able to speak English well or very well, while the corresponding figure for French was 11%. Four years after arrival, 69% were able to speak English well or very well, and 14% could speak French so."

I know that if I go to any public housing project in an urban area I'm going to see mostly non-white faces.I know that the news is filled with pictures and videos of non-white faces commiting violent crimes. I know many people who have been victimized by non-white criminals. And I know almost all non-whites are immigrants. So what should that tell me?

Please tell us what it tells you.

Who spit on your wife because she's a whore - for wearing shorts - and who insist the laws be re-written in accordance with their cultural values?

Cite ?

The only real shortage is of tradesmen, carpenters, bricklayers, electricians, etc. But immigrants don't do that kind of work.

And thats because of Unions (in this province) who convince the govt under the Trades Qualification & Apprenticeship Act to institute the 3-1 rule for trades. Immigrants would do that work, if only the Govt could see fit to tell the others to piss off.

How in any way does this affect immigration - unless you're complaining that even with unemployed immigrants filling our urban housing projects ...

Cite ?

The truth is, Rue, many moons ago published a whack of papers that showed immigrants today are not far from the immigrants we let in decades ago. The same myopic, scared BS was said then as it is today.

We denigrated the "wops" since all they wanted to do was put tomato gardens in and wrap the house in wrought iron. Woodbridge was beautified by these "wops" and would be a lot worse imo, of a place to live without them.

We denigrated all sorts of people in that past. Most of it wrong headed and bigotted. For the most part, they have all succeeded where they wanted to succeed. Providing a better life for their kids. My barber, charges $12, has a 4000 sf house in Woodbridge, puts his two kids through school , including post grad school in the US. He is not one case, but representative of many others who landed and wanted better for those that follow.

Do we need some reform in immigration? Sure we do. We need case workers to clear the back log, we need investigators to screen out the few bad ones that want in. We need to keep trying to attract the best and the brightest, even if some think they come from some "shithole country" , which Canada was likely framed as when we gave out land up north for farming. .....unless they are farming rocks that is.

The baby boomers all want to cash out in a decade or so. Who are they going to sell to? we know domestic rates of pop growth dont even cover the ones dying, so where are the people coming from to fill that void?

Edit to add: My use of the epithet relating to Italians was meant to use the vernacular of the day.Apologies to any Italians who are offended.

Edited January 6, 2009 by guyser

[OddSox]

The "country rejects" stay in reject countries. The best and brightest go someplace where their skills will be rewarded.

Although cute and sort of funny, I hope you're not saying that India is a reject country? That would be sort of rude.