Rue Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Unfortunately for those people and their families on both sides who will pay the ultimate price of this tit-for-tat, these attacks have absolutely NOTHING to do with long-term security.They have EVERYTHING to do with politics. On Israel's side - when in this conflict has military force ever successfully damaged a militant group's long-term ability to stage attacks? The answer is never - the strategy that failed in Lebanon in 2006 will fail here as well, no surprises. The only victory will be for Israeli politicians, who were feeling the heat from the public about the rocket attacks but lacked the political courage to ACTUAL DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM, and instead wanted to look like they were doing SOMETHING and still in-touch with the Israel public, who wanted blood. So that's where we get the ineffectual bombing campaign, and possibly an equally redundant ground-invasion. On Hamas' side - If terrorism = a free Palestinian state, such a state would be in existence already. It's clear to Hamas' leadership by now that terrorism will not get them what they claim they want so badly. But their militancy is one of the things that separates them from Fatah and gives them a certain amount of public support (mainly in Gaza). To give up militancy means moving closer to Fatah, and partnering with them in peace negotiations, which means giving up power, which is why they're not going that route. Instead, they'll satisfy the desire from their supporters for Israeli blood with rocket attacks, which do nothing to advance the cause of a Palestinian state, but do make it appear to some that Hamas is doing something to "fight the zionist entity" Spending the lives of people in order to increase your political capital is an old move, but that doesn't make it any less disgusting. Of course it should be said - that Hamas deliberately targets civilians both because it's ethically bankrupt and because it doesn't have the capacity to do anything else. Also, Israel deserves scorn as well because of how out-of-whack it's response in terms of it's severity vs the severity of the rocket attacks. The rocket attacks will accomplish nothing but keeping Israelis angry at Palestinians and willing to support things like the bombings, which will do nothing but hurt the short-term ability of Hamas to stage said attacks and do nothing about it's long-term strength. Also, they make Gazans even MORE angry and extreme than they already are, thus increasing the likelyhood of future attacks. The cycle continues, while apologists for both sides try to justify it. Nothing new here - move along people. You know I am on the same wave length with you. I responded on the other thread basically with the same response. No good comes from the misery terrorism triggers off. This damn cycle of tit for tat just what will it take to get the arms out of the hands of terrorists so that the moderates on both sides have a chance to talk? The tragedy of this damn cycle that never ends is precisely the polarization of Palestinians and Israelis. When missiles fly and jets respond and soldiers go door to door looking for repulsive terrorists and unintentinally killing innocent civilians caught in between, no good can come from this. None. For me the greatest challenge is that moderates such as Foreign Minister Tzipi L. of Kadima and Defence Minister Ehud Barak of Labour find themselves forced into more hawkish roles then they would have preferred. I personally believe Hamas thought its renewed missile attack would end up humiliating both and handing Netanyahu the election which is what they wanted-a stubborn, riigid right winger in power to make peace less possible. I make no secret of my bias for a Kadima-Labour coalition. I believe it has the best chance of negotiating a permanent peace solution not Likhud and Netanyahu. What happens now is anyone's guess. If Israel stays on the ground too long, the IDF will necessarily be forced to leave without being able to stop the rockets and this will fuel a right wing back-lash and be good for Netanyahu not to mention turn Hamas into underdogs. Turning a terrorists into the underdog in a struggle will not work. Its precisely what Hamas wants and if Hamas has to kill thousands of innocent Gaza civilians to gain sympathy it will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 But don't let facts get in the way of your story about how Hamas started with attacks on Fatah. Somehow it doesn't count that Hamas won properly conducted elections -- even though Fatah, and not Hamas, were permitted to campaign beyond Israeli checkpoints -- because, uh, why again? Let's count the living Fatah men in Gaza, shall we? -------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Apparently, HAMAS is back to shooting potential Fatah supporters to prevent them from helping Israelis. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken. But no worries...probably all just lies... ------------------------------------------ You got yer dead skunk in the middle of the road- And it's stinkin' to high heaven... ---Louden Wainwright III Edited January 4, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Apparently, HAMAS is back to shooting potential Fatah supporters to prevent them from helping Israelis.http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken. But no worries...probably all just lies... ------------------------------------------ You got yer dead skunk in the middle of the road- And it's stinckin' to high heaven... ---Louden Wainwright III Repeat one more time - but am probably to late...Israel should have given support to Palistine...as should the Americans.....You can not have two families living side by side - one with a billion dollars - and the other on welfare..this situation was engineered....Israel are hypocrites so is America . THIS WAS ORIGINALLY ABOUT MONEY.......now it's about extermination....would have been better to have had a western policy that was an un-bais foreign policy...From the begining the Jews taught us to hate the Palistinians....who are the mortal historical enemies of the tribe of Israel ---- The Palistinians are the remnants of the Philistines ----You would think that the Jews would have given up the feud ...............23 hundred years ago - talk about holding a grudge~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 If Palestinians (under HAMAS) would have taken their donated weapons budget and put it towards infrastructure, perhaps they'd have a country rather than a crater. But, that doesn't seem to be the plan. -------------------------------------------------- Scott: [both are the Jerry Springer show] How could you do this to me? On national television! Dr. Evil: Well throw me a freakin' bone here, Scott. Scott Evil: Why did you run out on me? Dr. Evil: Because you're not quite evil enough. [audience boos] Dr. Evil: [to audience] Well it's true! It's true! [to Scott Evil] You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 If Palestinians (under HAMAS) would have taken their donated weapons budget and put it towards infrastructure, perhaps they'd have a country rather than a crater. But, that doesn't seem to be the plan.-------------------------------------------------- Scott: [both are the Jerry Springer show] How could you do this to me? On national television! Dr. Evil: Well throw me a freakin' bone here, Scott. Scott Evil: Why did you run out on me? Dr. Evil: Because you're not quite evil enough. [audience boos] Dr. Evil: [to audience] Well it's true! It's true! [to Scott Evil] You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough. Both are fanatics - If America and the rest of the world had not used the artifical state of Israel to destablize the middle east in order to keep the oil flowing westward..Thing would be much better today! DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE SUPPORTERS OF ISRAEL REALLY CARE FOR THE JEWS? THEY JUST USE THEM - THIS IS ABOUT ENERGY AND ABOUT COLD HARD CASH....AND IF THEY HAVE TO HOLOCAUST ALL OF PALISTINE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO - THEY WILL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 If Palestinians (under HAMAS) would have taken their donated weapons budget and put it towards infrastructure, perhaps they'd have a country rather than a crater. But, that doesn't seem to be the plan.You made the point perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 The reality is that the two nations will never see eye to eye. The fact is that Hamas is a terrorist group and they deserve little more than death. Let them live by the sword and let them die by the sword. Well, one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter, I suppose... one always needs to keep in mind that the United States was created in part due to what the British viewed as terrorist activities. The same goes for Israel; Jewish terrorist groups were active in Palestine long before 1948... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Well, one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter, I suppose... one always needs to keep in mind that the United States was created in part due to what the British viewed as terrorist activities. The same goes for Israel; Jewish terrorist groups were active in Palestine long before 1948...In no way were any of these activities the equivalent of random rocket attacks or the September 11 attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 In no way were any of these activities the equivalent of random rocket attacks or the September 11 attacks. Yet there is some truth in what was said. Wasn't the first Israeli Prime Minister a wanted terrorist? The British tried to hunt him down but were not entirely successful because the man went on to achieve many other things. I must also agree that those early Jewish terrorists never did anything like what has and is being done to them and for those reasons no comparison can be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchener Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I must also agree that those early Jewish terrorists never did anything like what has and is being done to them and for those reasons no comparison can be made. Some of them planted car bombs, killed civilians, targeted police officers, murdered other Jews suspected of assisting the British... There were good reasons why the British referred to them as terrorists in their official reports. What do you mean by the claim that those settlers/militants never did anything like what has been done to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Some of them planted car bombs, killed civilians, targeted police officers, murdered other Jews suspected of assisting the British... There were good reasons why the British referred to them as terrorists in their official reports. What do you mean by the claim that those settlers/militants never did anything like what has been done to them? Gee, let me see. Did the Jews show up at the Olympics and murder a bunch of folks to make a political point? Did the Jews launch rocket attacks in an indiscriminate manner? Did the Jews strap C4 on themselves and see how many folks they could take out on a street corner? Did the Jews ever hold a telethon to pay out tens of thousands of dollars to the families of suicide bombers? The Arabs have done these things. In addition they hide behind their own people and then dare the Jews to react! They are cowards and criminals that support terrorism. The Jews did some things when they were trying to create their nation, as all citizens do, nothing new there. To claim that they are as bad as or worst than those scum that are acting in the way they do today is simply asinine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 In no way were any of these activities the equivalent of random rocket attacks or the September 11 attacks. Irgun-->Herut-->Likud-->Kadima... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ontario Loyalist Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Yet there is some truth in what was said. Wasn't the first Israeli Prime Minister a wanted terrorist? The British tried to hunt him down but were not entirely successful because the man went on to achieve many other things.I must also agree that those early Jewish terrorists never did anything like what has and is being done to them and for those reasons no comparison can be made. Um, a terrorist attack is a terrorist attack, and a terrorist organization is a terrorist organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchener Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Gee, let me see. Did the Jews show up at the Olympics and murder a bunch of folks to make a political point? Good one. I'm sure the civilians targeted and killed by some Jewish militants were far less dead because it didn't happen at the Olympics. Did the Jews launch rocket attacks in an indiscriminate manner? Rockets, artillery, automatic weapons, tanks, bulldozers -- yes, on many occasions since the founding of the modern state of Israel. Did the Jews strap C4 on themselves and see how many folks they could take out on a street corner? Not to my knowledge. Car bombs and murder worked well enough for the militants at first, and their military has had access to more sophisticated means of payload delivery ever since. Did the Jews ever hold a telethon to pay out tens of thousands of dollars to the families of suicide bombers? I don't know. I do know (as you would, if you cared) that massive amounts of private money have been raised over the decades to support violent "settler" incursions and land grabs into land owned by Palestinians, including funds to support the families of settlers killed in these occupations. Is the "telethon" the morally repugnant element, or the raising of private funds to support the families of people who die violently in the course of committing premeditated acts of violence? The Jews did some things when they were trying to create their nation, as all citizens do, nothing new there. Ooh, they did some things! How intellectually forthright of you to put this fine a point on it! And of course the Palestinians aren't "trying to create their nation, as all citizens do". Seriously, you should read what you write before clicking "Add Reply". You might notice your incandescent double-standards at work if you did. To claim that they are as bad as or worst than those scum that are acting in the way they do today is simply asinine. Nothing you've written has indicated any such conclusion. But in any case, I made neither of those claims. I just pointed out the absurdity of your contrived claim that Jewish militants "never did anything like what has and is being done to them and for those reasons no comparison can be made". You can twist and evade all you like, but the reality is utterly uncontroversial: they did much that was very like what's been done to them, and comparisons can very clearly be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Good one. I'm sure the civilians targeted and killed by some Jewish militants were far less dead because it didn't happen at the Olympics. Rockets, artillery, automatic weapons, tanks, bulldozers -- yes, on many occasions since the founding of the modern state of Israel. Not to my knowledge. Car bombs and murder worked well enough for the militants at first, and their military has had access to more sophisticated means of payload delivery ever since. I don't know. I do know (as you would, if you cared) that massive amounts of private money have been raised over the decades to support violent "settler" incursions and land grabs into land owned by Palestinians, including funds to support the families of settlers killed in these occupations. Is the "telethon" the morally repugnant element, or the raising of private funds to support the families of people who die violently in the course of committing premeditated acts of violence? Ooh, they did some things! How intellectually forthright of you to put this fine a point on it! And of course the Palestinians aren't "trying to create their nation, as all citizens do". Seriously, you should read what you write before clicking "Add Reply". You might notice your incandescent double-standards at work if you did. Nothing you've written has indicated any such conclusion. But in any case, I made neither of those claims. I just pointed out the absurdity of your contrived claim that Jewish militants "never did anything like what has and is being done to them and for those reasons no comparison can be made". You can twist and evade all you like, but the reality is utterly uncontroversial: they did much that was very like what's been done to them, and comparisons can very clearly be made. We must disagree then. You are either very young or very foolish to believe what you do. You seem to draw conclusions from your own misunderstandings, much the way the peoples of the middle east do as well. Israel has a right to exist, Gaza does not. That is my opinion, and I make it known simply because Hamas is a terrorist organization and as such has no place in society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Doors Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Then we are just going to see more of the same. Both are claiming rights to the land. Arm them all equally and then I will shake hands with the winner.War does not determine who is right, just who is left. War, war never changes. Equally? you should be shaking Israel's hand then because 6 countries attacked it on the same day and were better armed than the Israeli's and Israel still won. Of course, you would have to know your history to know that. Now get out there and start pumping some palms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Israel has a right to exist, Gaza does not. You do realize that under international law, Gaza has a right to exist, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 You do realize that under international law, Gaza has a right to exist, right? In what form is Gaza to exist, according to international law? -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 You do realize that under international law, Gaza has a right to exist, right?Do Gazans have rights independent of Molestinian Palestinians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 In what form is Gaza to exist, according to international law? As part of a future Palestinian state, the process of establishing such a state is ongoing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 As part of a future Palestinian state, the process of establishing such a state is ongoing. F@#k...I'll say. (looks at calendar...flips back...and back...and back) ------------------ It's a Daisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 You do realize that under international law, Gaza has a right to exist, right? I also realize that they are a nation of terrorists, governed by terrorists that were elected by terrorists. Perhaps you have heard of a little disturbance humbly called the war on terror? With that in mind, "the war on terror", Afghanistan and Iraq have lost their entire nations to military efforts of very powerful nations that were sanctioned by UN efforts. The UN doesn't seem to have declared Israel a terrorist organization, but yet the same cannot be said about Gaza and Hamas. Laws change, people change, and nations change. Even more important than this is that public opinion an international opinions change. Hamas, and its supporters must cease to exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I also realize that they are a nation of terrorists No, all Palestinians are not terrorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulf42 Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 No, all Palestinians are not terrorists. Hell of alot of them are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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