Israel Strikes the Gaza Strip

[LesterDC]

No one is starving so the hyperbole is wasted. Isarel is even allowing aid to enter the Gaza...but if destroying the cheese making capability works, go for it.

but those who relied on that factory cannot rely on it anymore.. for no reason..

Personally, if one Hamas leader was having his curds for lunch in a diary, then level the entire plant...it's all good.

Anyhow, how does this argument work in regard to those destroyed homes and farmhouses?

[M.Dancer]

Well sorry to burst your bubble but those [/s] are [/s] EDIT: were all CIVILIAN buildings therefore, it is a form of collective punishment.

The above is a form of uniformed opinion, and should in no way be confused for fact.

I am alsways amused by those who invoke "international law" seem to have no grasp of what it allows or doesn't allow.

Here's a hint, actually read the geneva conventiuons on the articles of war, leveling dairies is not forbidden...even mosques....if the real target is valuable and desirable.

[M.Dancer]

but those who relied on that factory cannot rely on it anymore.. for no reason..

Anyhow, how does this argument work in regard to those destroyed homes and farmhouses?

I thought you had the taretting orders?

Now you are implying you don't know if those structures were actually targetted....

make up your mind

[LesterDC]

The above is a form of uniformed opinion, and should in no way be confused for fact.

I am alsways amused by those who invoke "international law" seem to have no grasp of what it allows or doesn't allow.

Here's a hint, actually read the geneva conventiuons on the articles of war, leveling dairies is not forbidden...even mosques....if the real target is valuable and desirable.

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

[LesterDC]

I thought you had the taretting orders?

Now you are implying you don't know if those structures were actually targetted....

make up your mind

That's not what I was implying.. You made an excuse for the leveling of dairy factories.. could you make any excuses for the leveling of civilian homes and farmhouses?

[LesterDC]

I didn't relaize you have access to the targetting orders...you must have a very high level of clearence.

has the Israeli government released a formal apology then?

[M.Dancer]

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

Then feel free to cite the GC articles that show that those targets weren't legitimate or rigfhteous and the targetting orders that prove that the Israeli attacks are not meant to defend themselves against rocket attacks but merely to punish the Gaza as a whole..

Have fun...might take awhile...

Edited December 30, 2008 by M.Dancer

[LesterDC]

Then feel free to cite the GC articles that show that those targets weren't legitimate or rigfhteous and the targetting orders that prove that the Israeli attacks are not meant to defend themselves against rocket attacks but merely to punish the Gaza as a whole..

Have fun...might take awhile...

so first you say that I am ignorant of the Geneva Convention because I said that the targeting of civilian property is prohibited.. Now you have pushed that aside and are asking me for targeting orders...

okay, well.. Has the Israeli government issued a formal apology for those buildings yet?

[Topaz]

You know after Nam, there world did go awhile with peace before we had another war going on somewhere. I'm so sick of seeing what these leaders of countries are doing to people of this world! On the news it said this also had to do with the elections coming up in Israel it may but I do know from watching a documentary on these TWO PEOPLES that hate for each other can`t even come close to how they feel for each other and yet, they have taken young people from both sides and have brought them to together as friends so you tell me what in the hell is going on over there. What part is the US in this? Are they hoping Iran come to the rescue of the Palestinians and draw them in to a war too? So many little kids are hurt or dead over this.

[DogOnPorch]

The fellow lauded by neo nazis and subsequently torn to pieces by historians over shoddy work and tenuous conclusions?

That would be the fellow, yes. Lester here was echoing him so I simply assumed...wrongly. Little did I know it was an independent line of thought.

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History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.

---President/General Dwight D. Eisenhower

[M.Dancer]

has the Israeli government released a formal apology then?

For what? And why should they? So some bleeding heart foreigners can wring their hands in mock anguish? Have Hamas apologized for there deliberate murders?

Bugger them....apologies can wait after Hamas has been beheaded...

Dear People of Gaza, we are sorry you don't seem to learn. We are sorry you allow your terrorists to attack us, tough shit, emigrate to Egypt.

Signed,

Israel

[LesterDC]

For what? And why should they? So some bleeding heart foreigners can wring their hands in mock anguish? Have Hamas apologized for there deliberate murders?

Bugger them....apologies can wait after Hamas has been beheaded...

Dear People of Gaza, we are sorry you don't seem to learn. We are sorry you allow your terrorists to attack us, tough shit, emigrate to Egypt.

Signed,

Israel

No apology indicates deliberation. Therefore, a violation of the Geneva Convention

Surely the Israeli government could muster up enough decency to apologize to the civilians... Are they really as bad as the Hamas? No apology from the Hamas means that they shouldn't apologize for innocent blood themselves?

[M.Dancer]

so first you say that I am ignorant of the Geneva Convention because I said that the targeting of civilian property is prohibited.. Now you have pushed that aside and are asking me for targeting orders...

Exactly, I assumed you would have figured it out by now.

How do you know the target;

1) wasn't legitimate (occupied by terrorists, weapons etc etc)

2) wasn't intentional

3) isn't disinformation by Hamas similar to what Hezbollah did with fake targets...

Until you know these things, you are making an uninformed assumption saying the Israelis targeted a civilian installation.

Edited December 30, 2008 by M.Dancer

[DogOnPorch]

You know after Nam, there world did go awhile with peace before we had another war going on somewhere. I'm so sick of seeing what these leaders of countries are doing to people of this world! On the news it said this also had to do with the elections coming up in Israel it may but I do know from watching a documentary on these TWO PEOPLES that hate for each other can`t even come close to how they feel for each other and yet, they have taken young people from both sides and have brought them to together as friends so you tell me what in the hell is going on over there. What part is the US in this? Are they hoping Iran come to the rescue of the Palestinians and draw them in to a war too? So many little kids are hurt or dead over this.

The elections in Israel are indeed a factor. It's political suicide to do nothing about HAMAS's attacks. The US transition of power also is a factor...who decides what? Does anyone listen to Condi anymore?? HAMAS picked a bad day to start a war. But I imagine they thought it would be just the same ol' same ol' shoot rockets without any real response.

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It's a Daisy.

[M.Dancer]

No apology indicates deliberation. Therefore, a violation of the Geneva Convention

That qualifies as the stupidest thing I've read today.

How do you feel about the 1st amendment?

And you still havent read the GC articles of war.....civilian structures can be fair game.

[LesterDC]

Exactly, I assumed you would have figured it out by now.

How do you know the target;

1) wasn't legitimate (occupied by terrorists, weapons etc etc)

2) wasn't intentional

3) isn't disinformation by Hamas similar to what Hezbollah did with fake targets...

Until you know these things, you are making an uninformed assumption saying the Israelis targeted a civilian installation.

ah, the classic argument supporting collective punishment... they are all in on it, even the city of Beit Hanoun

... if it was not intentional, then lets hear an apology

[DogOnPorch]

No apology indicates deliberation. Therefore, a violation of the Geneva Convention

Surely the Israeli government could muster up enough decency to apologize to the civilians... Are they really as bad as the Hamas? No apology from the Hamas means that they shouldn't apologize for innocent blood themselves?

Tzipi Livni was on the tube last night apolgizing to the innocent civilians, infact.

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...and in the end, the love you make is equal to the love you take.

[LesterDC]

That qualifies as the stupidest thing I've read today.

How do you feel about the 1st amendment?

And you still havent read the GC articles of war.....civilian structures can be fair game.

# Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:

1. those which are not directed at a specific military objective;

2. those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or

3. those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

# Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:

1. an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and

2. an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

and ...

# Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited

# It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.

and this as well...

In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used. Article 53 Protection of cultural objects and of places of worship without prejudice to the provisions of the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict of 14 May 1954, and of other relevant international instruments, it is prohibited:

1. to commit any acts of hostility directed against the historic monuments, works of art or places of worship which constitute the cultural or spiritual heritage of peoples;

2. to use such objects in support of the military effort;

3. to make such objects the object of reprisals.

Edited December 31, 2008 by LesterDC

[LesterDC]

Tzipi Livni was on the tube last night apolgizing to the innocent civilians, infact.

I cannot find this apology.. unless you mean blaming the Hamas for all of the civilian destruction?

[DogOnPorch]

BBC has it...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7803423.stm

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It's a Daisy.

[M.Dancer]

# Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:....

Do you know what the difference is between an indiscriminate attack and a targetted attack is?

Since you haven't proven they were targeted, how can you prove they were indiscriminate?

1. those which are not directed at a specific military objective;

2. those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or

3. those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

You haven't proved any of the above. I asked for the targeting orders ...with barely 50 civilians killed, it seems the vast majority of strikes are targetting the military..so ummm, these won't apply.

# Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited

# It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive

N o one is starving, Israel is allowing aid in and no one with half a brain thinks that one dairy will feed the entire pop. of the Gaza....

ill informed hyperbole.

But this applies to Hamas specifically....

The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.

[M.Dancer]

ah, the classic argument supporting collective punishment... they are all in on it, even the city of Beit Hanoun

... if it was not intentional, then lets hear an apology

I'm undecided whether you do but I know for sure I don't know what you are talking about/

[BC_chick]

The elections in Israel are indeed a factor.

November 2008 polling numbers:

Likud 34

Kadima 23

Now:

Likud 29

Kadima 25

link

Even Early December:

Likud 35

Kadima 26

link

Analysis:

JERUSALEM, Dec 29 (Reuters) - Israel's bomb and missile offensive in Gaza may boost voter support for Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni in her bid to defeat frontrunner Benjamin Netanyahu in the Feb. 10 election.

An Israeli television poll showed 81 percent of Israelis backed the massive attacks on the coastal strip, ruled by the Islamist group Hamas, in a bid to stop Palestinian militants firing rockets into southern Israel.

Whether Livni can defeat the right-wing leader at the polls may depend on whether Israel achieves its objective without incurring heavy Israeli civilian or military casualties, analysts said.

Both Livni and Defence Minister Ehud Barak are gambling with their political careers by launching this attack on Hamas, they said.

link

Bombs for votes.... Livni's campaign slogan.... sad.

Edited December 31, 2008 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

Here's an interesting picture for the military buffs. All these AFVs are ex T-62s or T-72s captured circa 1973. Soviet tanks...for those not up on tanks.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4533...getty-tanks.jpg

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Your door is a jar. your window, a turnip.

[M.Dancer]

Bombs for votes.... Livni's campaign slogan.... sad.

Prepare the Tinfoil Hats....conspiracy theory ahead...

Livni used mind control to force Hamas into taking a suicidal path by permitting Hamas terrorists to launch 100s of rockets and to continue to launch the rockets....

ergo, Israel is behind the rocket attacks....

Maybe Topaz would like to comment....