benny Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 You mean like Bernie Madoff? Recall: to be a welfare recipient, you have to be the owner of a specific citizenship. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Recall: to be a welfare recipient, you have to be the owner of a specific citizenship. Bernie could qualify for some of that landed immigrant welfare for sure....he just needs to escape from the authorities. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
benny Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Bernie could qualify for some of that landed immigrant welfare for sure....he just needs to escape from the authorities. Basically Madoff will die as an inmate because he was a cynic and opportunist. Redistributing financial wealth from the new to the old is a nonstarter. Redistributing wealth the other way around is what welfare is all about. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Oh slavery! Lets never overlook the jewel, "Pride in Ownership". Now Bernie. he didn't own, he absconded....Bernie made off with other people's ownership, much like welfare recipients do....excepts welfare keeps better records and does it with the approval of the owners (The taxpayer/legislator)... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
benny Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 Oh slavery! Lets never overlook the jewel, "Pride in Ownership". Being proud of having been the first to appropriate (natural) wealth is I think at the root of welfare bashing. To me, welfare has to be conceived as compensation due to late comers who have no longer access to the best properties. Quote
Topaz Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 How about the people who have paid into EI but don't qualify? The welfare rolls are going up in Ontario because of the rules so sooner or later we are going to be paying for this economy downturn through our taxes. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 12, 2009 Report Posted March 12, 2009 To me, welfare has to be conceived as compensation due to late comers who have no longer access to the best properties. All the early comers are dead. Only new comers own property, and everyone has the same opportunity to own it. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
benny Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 All the early comers are dead. Only new comers own property, and everyone has the same opportunity to own it. You seem to forget inheritance. Quote
eyeball Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 You seem to forget inheritance. Not to mention the dispossessed. That's a bad habit by the way. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 You seem to forget inheritance. Show me someone who owns land that has been in the family for 200 years and I will show you a farmer. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
benny Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 Not to mention the dispossessed. That's a bad habit by the way. Yes. So bad an habit that nobody now, it seems to me, can remember the time when the first Enclosure Acts were promoted on the basis that they would LOWER the pressure on those folks still using the remaining commons. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 A new report has been released on the state of welfare in Canada: WELFARE INCOMES, 2006 AND 2007An exerpt from the Toronto Star Artcle: Hardship of welfare getting harder There seem to be underlying premis on the role of the welfare system which I'm not sure I agree with. Is welfare: A temporary form of income support? A way to ensure people's basic needs are met (ie food, clothing, shelter)? A system to eliminate poverty? A system to appease those who lack so that they don't cause social unrest? Something else? The role of welfare is to ensure that a person who has hit either emotional, mental or finacial rock bottom does not embarass the city officals by wandering about the street and dying in an alley...That is the only purpose of it - shelter -as for food - most of them unless the are clever and have extended family and a support system are protein starved or go hungry for most of the month. Social unrest will not becaused by the poor - eating is more important that political or social involvement - social unrest comes out of the universities - not out of the poor house...They barely have enough energy or money to managed doing the laundry. As Christ said "The poor will always be with us" - in other words the weak - the stupid - the damaged and the abused...and there are rich that are poor of mind and spirit - poor as my mother said is the man that has no arms and legs..That's poor! Harris the former Premier of Ontario brought in "Ontario Works" - he was instructed by big buisness to starve the bastards back into working. He removed a hundred or so dollars from the social subsidy - so there would be no food - real nice plan - looks like a failure - pure coersion and abuse ----what is remarkable is the amount of poor disgarded white people - the grand children of the people who built the infrastructure - who poured the foundations for the bank towers - dumped like garbage and addicted to garbage...talk about tribal disloyaltiy..shame on those that abuse the offspring of the men that brought those in power wealth! Quote
benny Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 The role of welfare is to ensure that a person who has hit either emotional, mental or finacial rock bottom does not embarass the city officals by wandering about the street and dying in an alley...That is the only purpose of it - shelter -as for food - most of them unless the are clever and have extended family and a support system are protein starved or go hungry for most of the month. Social unrest will not becaused by the poor - eating is more important that political or social involvement - social unrest comes out of the universities - not out of the poor house...They barely have enough energy or money to managed doing the laundry. As Christ said "The poor will always be with us" - in other words the weak - the stupid - the damaged and the abused...and there are rich that are poor of mind and spirit - poor as my mother said is the man that has no arms and legs..That's poor! Harris the former Premier of Ontario brought in "Ontario Works" - he was instructed by big buisness to starve the bastards back into working. He removed a hundred or so dollars from the social subsidy - so there would be no food - real nice plan - looks like a failure - pure coersion and abuse ----what is remarkable is the amount of poor disgarded white people - the grand children of the people who built the infrastructure - who poured the foundations for the bank towers - dumped like garbage and addicted to garbage...talk about tribal disloyaltiy..shame on those that abuse the offspring of the men that brought those in power wealth! I’d rather say the role of welfare is to ensure that any person who needs to explain how come society is not a paradise can find a universal scapegoat. Quote
Renegade Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Posted March 13, 2009 The role of welfare is to ensure that a person who has hit either emotional, mental or finacial rock bottom does not embarass the city officals by wandering about the street and dying in an alley... What happens if city officials aren't easily embarrassed? Harris the former Premier of Ontario brought in "Ontario Works" - he was instructed by big buisness to starve the bastards back into working. He removed a hundred or so dollars from the social subsidy - so there would be no food - real nice plan - looks like a failure - pure coersion and abuse ----what is remarkable is the amount of poor disgarded white people - the grand children of the people who built the infrastructure - who poured the foundations for the bank towers - dumped like garbage and addicted to garbage...talk about tribal disloyaltiy..shame on those that abuse the offspring of the men that brought those in power wealth! I thought you said that purpose of welfare was to save city officials embarrassment. If Mike Harris was ok to be "embarrassed" why do you have an objection? Why are the "grand children of the people who built the infrastructure - who poured the foundations for the bank towers" owed anything? They aren't the ones who provided the labour, and the ones that did were remunierated. Quote “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
Renegade Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Posted March 13, 2009 I think that to find out what should be the purpose of a welfare program, we have to take seriously the outrage many feel (me included) about the top-down bailout plans that are now implemented to get over to current economic meltdown. In this optic, to me, welfare has to be conceived has a bottom-up universal and permanent bailout program to prevent extreme economic fluctuations. Benny, let me understand this. You feel outrage at welfare for corporations for need it, but no outrage for welfare for citizens. Why the double standard? Quote “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
Renegade Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Posted March 13, 2009 I’d rather say the role of welfare is to ensure that any person who needs to explain how come society is not a paradise can find a universal scapegoat. Why would anyone need to explain that society is not a paradise? It's not by default. How much of a paradise we make it is up to each of us an our interactions with the rest of society. For some it will be a paradise. For others it will be hell. Quote “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
benny Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 What happens if city officials aren't easily embarrassed? Never forget that a hungry person has a natural right to steal food. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 Why would anyone need to explain that society is not a paradise? It's not by default. How much of a paradise we make it is up to each of us an our interactions with the rest of society. For some it will be a paradise. For others it will be hell. Wise - and who said it was carved in stone that this world and it's societies should generate hellishness? This world was by design a paradise..but quiet and tacit violence and those that can not control their cruelty mess things up - "There are violent men that try to take heaven by force" _ This is a very important ancient bit of writing - It's stating there are men in heaven - so this must be heaven...cos there are no men in the ether..or floating above in some dimentional vortex. Hell is generated by those who believe they are gods - and those people seek power - and once they have it they find that they are not gods and screw our paradise up - want to control the environ and keep up the quality of life? Don't try to control others - control the worse parts of yourself! Quote
Renegade Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Posted March 13, 2009 How about the people who have paid into EI but don't qualify? The welfare rolls are going up in Ontario because of the rules so sooner or later we are going to be paying for this economy downturn through our taxes. EI is a scam which wouldn't exist at all if the government didn't force people into it. Welfare would exist with out without EI. In some countries EI and welfare is the same program. Quote “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
Renegade Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Posted March 13, 2009 Never forget that a hungry person has a natural right to steal food. As much as a theif has the natural right to be shot? Where did this natural right you claim come from? Quote “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
benny Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 Why would anyone need to explain that society is not a paradise? It's not by default. How much of a paradise we make it is up to each of us an our interactions with the rest of society. For some it will be a paradise. For others it will be hell. For example, the "welfare queen" is a useful fantasy to explain why taxes are so high. Quote
benny Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 As much as a theif has the natural right to be shot? Where did this natural right you claim come from? I thought THE LEVIATHAN by Thomas Hobbes, published in 1660, could be part of (explicit) general culture by now. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 For example, the "welfare queen" is a useful fantasy to explain why taxes are so high. Yes the woman who is encouraged by our moraly neutral system to have more than one husband - to have multiple children by mulitiple fathers - and is told that she is independent and does not have to take the "abuse" of having a male head of he family - so they run the fathers off..and give her a washer and dryer and free pharma product for free that she barters into food and booze and the drugs of her choice - not that states. Taxes are high not because of the merger bit sent to these people that we created. They are high because we elect idots for provincal, and municipal governments - who can not and will not manage the public purse. Billions go up in smoke - contracts are awarded to friends who do a horrible job and are over paid. Quote
benny Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 The worst case of cheating I can imagine is for a person specifically elected to be sacrificed as a scapegoat to find a surrogate. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted March 13, 2009 Report Posted March 13, 2009 The worst case of cheating I can imagine is for a person specifically elected to be sacrificed as a scapegoat to find a surrogate. OFF goes the goat with all of our sins in tow to die and be forgotten. The election of fall guys to make room for new figureheads is common practice..Look at the Lord Black sacrafice - one man rendered to the level of a goat while another one abscounds with 50 billion bucks..who will be the top scape goat while all those in the middle will plead that all sins are forgiven. Shifty and deversional buisness this economic political stuff - we will call the weakest a welfare parasite and then send a billion dollars to some executive that will skim off a few million and he is NOT a welfare parasite? Put it this way - if he bullies were beating on my older less skilled brother - I knew one thing. That I was safe. As long as all attention was on him I could make my escape..but in time I had to stand and fight. Surrogates are always used to safe guard the real boss - look at Cheney - he ruled and George was paid to take the brunt..those out front are rarely in charge...still wondering what individual is Obamas puppet master? Quote
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