SHOULD Canada break up?

[Wild Bill]

In another thread a poster named Donaill commented on how Canada has become more divided than perhaps at any other time in its history. The various regions have evolved into dramatically different cultures. Alberta is quite conservative, B.C. is very socialist, the Maritimes are a mix of Liberal and the old PC, which is essentially the same thing. (That's what caused the great Reform schism, after all)

It struck me that if the point is correct then maybe we've advanced to the point where it would be impossible to ever make all regions happy! The most that can be achieved is a tyranny of whatever major province is in power in Ottawa.

Look at many of the partisan posts here on this board. To hear them tell it, Harper's style of government is evil! He's Mr. Burns from the Simpsons, hurting the country for the sheer joy of it.

Meanwhile, to a Tory supporter the thought of more Liberal government just means more inefficiency if not corruption. Adscams forever, endless gun registry programs, pandering to Quebec...all paid for by taxing Alberta.

The NDP supporters seem to feel that they are being perpetually stymied by the other parties in achieving Heaven on Earth.

This has all given rise to a feeling that any government other than their own choice is intolerable. No matter who wins all the other areas of the country are angry.

This just can't work! All these different mind sets are totally incompatible. There is no way that any one party could ever gather high levels of popular support across the country if these attitudes prevail.

Consider what would happen if this proposed 'coalition' coup is successful. Technically it would be legal under the Constitution. So what? Would one expect all the citizens in Alberta to smile and sing "We are the World"? It's guaranteed that the Western separatist movement would get a HUGE boost! Perhaps enough to win.

Personally, I wouldn't blame them. There are a lot of us in the East who wouldn't want Canada to go the way of Italy or Israel either.

Obviously, the Opposition parties represent citizens who find the present Tory brand of conservatism to be hell on earth, or they wouldn't be considering such a drastic move.

So what choices do we have? A situation where 2/3 of the populace is perpetually in high anxiety or even despair? Or all go our separate ways?

I thought I'd start a thread for some discussion.

[Topaz]

I think if a vote was asked, the answer would be a NO!! Just because times get tough, we don't say, let's leave! If we keep talking about leaving then the NAU is right down the road taking advantage of the situation.

[Wild Bill]

I think if a vote was asked, the answer would be a NO!! Just because times get tough, we don't say, let's leave! If we keep talking about leaving then the NAU is right down the road taking advantage of the situation.

Well, what if that vote were held in Alberta, the day after this Opposition coup succeeds in establishing a coalition government by toppling the Tories?

My point is that people want to leave when they see no benefit to staying. Each side sees living under the rule of the other as intolerable.

How does it benefit Alberta to stay if the Liberals are back in power?

Edited November 29, 2008 by Wild Bill

[Smallc]

How does it benefit Alberta to stay if the Liberals are back in power?

Because they should realize the system is working as it was designed. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean its wrong.

I find this thread completely preposterous and disappointing. Canada is more than a collection regions and political parties. Just because we don't always agree doesn't mean we're completely divided. According to polls conducted mere months ago, Canadians are more proud than ever to be who they are. Canada is the best country on Earth and breaking it up would be more than a mistake, it would be simply terrible. So that's a no.

[BornAlbertan]

Because they should realize the system is working as it was designed. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean its wrong.

Just because it is designed like that doesn't mean it is right either! You should take comfort in knowing we realize that!

[eyeball]

VILO! VILO! VILO! VILO! VILO!

(Vancouver Island Liberation Organization)

[BornAlbertan]

Oh and just to stir the shit...marriage was designed as one man and one woman. Worked prety damn good for a hell of a lot longer than this Westminster crap. But it was forced to be changed...because despite it was working as designed...it was deemed to not be right.

Perhaps it is time for Canada to shit or get off the pot. We are a completely dysfunctional family proving that Conferderation is a crock.

At this point in history, as an Albertan seeing this "Made in Canada" political bullshit and having spent much time in the US in the last few years, I would gladly welcome annexation to the US.

[eyeball]

Oh and just to stir the shit...marriage was designed as one man and one woman. Worked prety damn good for a hell of a lot longer than this Westminster crap. But it was forced to be changed...because despite it was working as designed...it was deemed to not be right.

Perhaps it is time for Canada to shit or get off the pot. We are a completely dysfunctional family proving that Conferderation is a crock.

At this point in history, as an Albertan seeing this "Made in Canada" political bullshit and having spent much time in the US in the last few years, I would gladly welcome annexation to the US.

The solution for failed marriges works well too. As for annexation visitation rights are one thing but custody will be different matter I think.

Edited November 29, 2008 by eyeball

[Smallc]

Just because it is designed like that doesn't mean it is right either! You should take comfort in knowing we realize that!

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Canada is more than Alberta. There are great people in every province making this amazing country work. Right now, its ot in our hands. We have to stand back and let the GG do her job if necessary.

[blueblood]

I'd only support breaking up the country only if it came from parliament. This stupid colonial attitude that the east has, has got to end. It is a failed concept and is what has created the US (the richer money making area wanting to leave the inefficient mother country) Slash transfer payments, let the provinces raise more money. This whole attitude of "Ontario/Quebec Colonialism" has got to go.

[Smallc]

I'd only support breaking up the country only if it came from parliament. This stupid colonial attitude that the east has, has got to end. It is a failed concept and is what has created the US (the richer money making area wanting to leave the inefficient mother country) Slash transfer payments, let the provinces raise more money. This whole attitude of "Ontario/Quebec Colonialism" has got to go.

I would argue that your regional attitude has to go.

[madmax]

LOL, Canada has never been stronger, and less divided politically. Large Majority Mulroney Governments faced huge turmoil and lose coalitions all under the roof of one party. The PCs where a coalition of sorts, especially with separatists such as Lucien Bouchard.

I think right we are faced with a bunch of whinge buckets at the moment, but it has little to do with the political affairs across the country. People are more worried about shrinking markets then whining political losers.

[blueblood]

I would argue that your regional attitude has to go.

Step out of your ivory tower, every region of Canada is different, Quebecer are different, Maritimers are different, Ontarians are different, Prairie people are different, and West Coast BC people are different. It is too large of a country to be a big tent. If certain areas of the country aren't raided for their dollars, certain energy policies weren't enacted, and certain areas of this country aren't getting handouts, we'd be a lot better off.

[Smallc]

Step out of your ivory tower, every region of Canada is different, Quebecer are different, Maritimers are different, Ontarians are different, Prairie people are different, and West Coast BC people are different. It is too large of a country to be a big tent. If certain areas of the country aren't raided for their dollars, certain energy policies weren't enacted, and certain areas of this country aren't getting handouts, we'd be a lot better off.

OF course every region is different. Te rest is simply your opinion. I don't think we should eliminate a constitutionally mandated transfer program just because you don't like it.

[Wild Bill]

Because they should realize the system is working as it was designed. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean its wrong.

I find this thread completely preposterous and disappointing. Canada is more than a collection regions and political parties. Just because we don't always agree doesn't mean we're completely divided. According to polls conducted mere months ago, Canadians are more proud than ever to be who they are. Canada is the best country on Earth and breaking it up would be more than a mistake, it would be simply terrible. So that's a no.

I personally would believe you, but so what? You don't keep people from leaving a group by scolding them and telling them what they SHOULD think!

People want to stay in a group because they feel it's a better place to be than somewhere else. Legal tricks don't cut it, even if they are constitutional. We have many people in many regions of the country that have been questioning the advantages of being part of Canada for some time. Quebec separatism refuses to die. Western separatism was headed off only by the rise of the Reform Party, crying "The West wants in!" Now they got in but the other parties want to remove them by a lawyer's trick in a coup, with the Liberals and the NDP allying with those who want to break up the country, for Pete's sake! If I were an Albertan my patience would have been exhausted long ago.

It seems obvious that the parties of the left will NEVER accept any election result that puts conservatives in power, unless those conservatives govern from a leftist viewpoint and not like conservatives. I suspect that conservatives are equally sick of being out of office for decades at a time. They enjoy overwhelming support in just a few regions of the country. What hope or encouragement is there for people living in those regions when they see Liberals in Ottawa?

Why should they feel like they belong? What benefit is there for them to stay? To a Liberal a Westerner is basically just a tax wallet anyway. Hedy Fry calls them all KKK types. With apparent impunity, one might add.

We political junkies can argue among ourselves on this board but our views are irrelevant. The challenge is for any one party to command enough support across the spectrum to not only achieve government but to leave a majority in ALL regions reasonably content with the result, even if their favoured choice did not win.

Liberals and NDP might say that Harper has been a failure in this regard but they seem blissfully unaware of how totally unwanted, if not outright despised they are themselves in some regions of this country! They take it for granted that if they achieve power BY ANY MEANS that people everywhere will accept it!

Many of us here in Ontario live in suburbs that were forcefully amalgamated with big cities under Mike Harris' reign. It's been years but if you talk to the average suburban citizen he still doesn't feel any connection to that big city. He simply feels like he was conquered, or at least drafted against his will. The reason for the disconnect is simple: He hasn't seen any positives to the new situation. Only a LOT of negatives! His taxes went up and his services went down. If he questions a politician he gets convoluted arguments dealing in "what-ifs", like "If you hadn't been amalgamated the tax hikes would have been worse!"

Again, the questions boil down to the benefits of being in or out of a group. Perhaps those who see only the chance to rule the group should sometimes think about how the group might become smaller, or even no longer be a group at all.

[Smallc]

Based on all the shots and generalizations about Liberals, I see no reason to respond.

[Smallc]

I do have to say this though. I'm not telling people hat they should think, but I question how you can not love this country when you compare it to so many others. It makes me sa to ever think that it could break up. I don't think it will, but even asking the question is disheartening.

[Wild Bill]

Based on all the shots and generalizations about Liberals, I see no reason to respond.

It has nothing to do with whether or not you like Liberals. Or Tories. Or Rhinos, for that matter.

There has to be a sense of loyalty to the underlying political structure of our country. Something that goes beyond mere party partisanship. Citizens need positive reasons to have patriotic pride, positive reasons to prefer to belong to the group.

This is something you can't instill by scolding or berating people for wanting to leave. Negative actions only make them more determined to cut out.

Perhaps Harper provoked the situation. I'm saying the other side was hardly blameless.

[Smallc]

It has nothing to do with whether or not you like Liberals. Or Tories. Or Rhinos, for that matter.

I agree, but painting someone else with one brush and berating them just for having different political ideologies than you is no way to get things done.....what was that about not instilling something by scolding and berating???

There has to be a sense of loyalty to the underlying political structure of our country.

That seems to be what your arguing against. Our underlying political structure is being followed no matter what the GG decides....if it comes to that of course.

Perhaps Harper provoked the situation. I'm saying the other side was hardly blameless.

The Liberals passed the throne speech without reservation. The NDP was playing games, yes, but the Liberals were ready to work. Harper destroyed that atmosphere, decided to do nothing, and went beyond that even and tried to crush his opposition. As the editorials in both the Globe and Mail and the National Post said, Harper has no one to blame but himself.

[madmax]

Perhaps Harper provoked the situation. I'm saying the other side was hardly blameless.

The former is true, the latter is nonsense. The Liberals had been in the fetal position since Harper took power in 06. They got kicked around pretty good in the election of 08 and the only thing certain, was they were going to remain in the fetal position. I cannot blame anyone when lying on the ground in a ball and crying like a baby. But leave it to Harper to try to Take one swift kick at the head of a downed near unconscious opponent.

Payback is a bitch.

I see only oneside to blame for this self inflicted political crises.

[Wilber]

In another thread a poster named Donaill commented on how Canada has become more divided than perhaps at any other time in its history. The various regions have evolved into dramatically different cultures. Alberta is quite conservative, B.C. is very socialist, the Maritimes are a mix of Liberal and the old PC, which is essentially the same thing. (That's what caused the great Reform schism, after all)

An interesting misconception (about BC at least). In fact socialist parties in the form of the NDP have only won 3 elections in BC history and one of those was with a three seat majority in an election where the Liberals got a higher percentage of the popular vote. Prior to 1952 all BC governments were either Liberal or Conservative except for two coalitions during WWII. Since 1952 the NDP won 3 elections, the rest being won by Social Credit or the BC Liberal party which succeeded it. Federally, both would be considered right of center parties. The Federal Liberals are definitely to the left of the BC Liberals, witness Ujjal Dosanjh a former NDP Premier going to the Federal Liberals.

The NDP does have a core following in the 30% range which is more than the national average but only becomes strong enough to form government when their opposition does something stupid enough to really piss a majority of people off. Even then, they never seem to last very long.

Edited November 29, 2008 by Wilber

[Smallc]

and certain areas of this country aren't getting handouts, we'd be a lot better off.

IF certain areas didn't have fiscal capacity to run programs, how would we be better off? At one time or another throughout equalization, every province has needed help, so I ask, how would we be better off. The way things are going (if they continue in this direction), it won't be all that long until Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Newfoundland and Labrador again need equalization, so how would we all be better off? Quit being blinded by your ideology. equalization is good for Canada and it always has been. it allows everyone in this country to live on at least somewhat equal footing. It helps all of us when the entire country is strong.

[Wilber]

Interesting how the US is at least as diverse as Canada with ten times the population, yet this subject almost never comes up except on extreme fringes of their society and we maintain our system is working. Either it is clearly not or we are merely a nation of whiners. Either way, it doesn't bode well for the future.

[bush_cheney2004]

Interesting how the US is at least as diverse as Canada with ten times the population, yet this subject almost never comes up except on extreme fringes of their society and we maintain our system is working. Either it is clearly not or we are merely a nation of whiners. Either way, it doesn't bode well for the future.

Well...to be fair...the subject did come up in the 1850's. The Americans settled the matter in a rather straightforward way. Probably wouldn't work for Canada.

[Wilber]

Well...to be fair...the subject did come up in the 1850's. The Americans settled the matter in a rather straightforward way. Probably wouldn't work for Canada.

Probably not. We weren't a country yet in 1850, we weren't until three years after you "settled".