Coalition Government

[madmax]

Well, what in your mind is a "stimulus package"? Is it not when the government takes money from some taxpayers and gives it to other people?

What do you think the NDP, the Bloc and the Liberals have in mind?

The CPC, LPC, NDP, are all offering a "stimulus" package. They can layout the details of what they believe a "Stimulus" package is.

I doubt very much that any political party would offer a general electionas a "stimulus" package.

Anyways, I think I have said a couple boners in this thread. Bound to happen, its pretty active and intense, and this is untreaded ground.

[August1991]

I doubt very much that any political party would offer a general electionas a "stimulus" package.

Anyways, I think I have said a couple boners in this thread. Bound to happen, its pretty active and intense, and this is untreaded ground.

Madmax, I was merely pointing out the absurdity of claiming that a $300 million election is a "waste of money" while simultaneously saying that the government should spend $30 billion on a "stimulus package".

[jdobbin]

Chretien was, if anything, far more of a totalitarian, my-way-or-the-highway guy, who never forgot a slight, and never forgave one, and you never had a problem with him.

Don't disagree. Too bad Harper's selfishness even back then contributed to a divided conservative movement.

Incidentally, I'm looking forward to all your concern about heavy spending evaporating with a Liberal led government, and you instead turning your talents to explaining why it's necessary, and all the Tories fault.

I will always advocate for spending at the rate of inflation and the rate of population. I personally think the economic panel advising the government comes up with a list of where spending can be cut and where it can be redirected for maximum impact.

[jdobbin]

I'm guessing that after this, the Bloc will increase its popularity in Quebec, but the Liberals will plunge there, and everywhere else.

Don't know that we can say what will happen. I don't sense a massive movement to the Tories over this. Nor do I see a surge to any other party.

[jdobbin]

Tory brass say that they will use any and all means to prevent the loss of gov't, get ready for parliament shutdown, attack ads, and speeches!!!

Excellent! And don't forget the rallies, lawsuits and separatist movements!

[jdobbin]

All the polls I have been aboe to see are VERY negative to this coalition of Losers.

Haven't seen a lot of scientific polls on this. Are you referring to CTV's polling which is not random at all?

He is cognizant of the fact that this will be the end of the Liberal Party as an effective National alternative.

I think he knows that Harper was intending on calling an election during the Liberal leadership campaign anyways in an effort to destroy the Liberals.

What is the point of waiting if that is what Harper intended all along?

[jdobbin]

The other parties had absolutely no intention of working with the Conservative Party and this coup makes it obvious. The only people playing partisan games are Layton, Dion and Duceppe.

Harper is totally innocent in all this. He was just doing his job as PM, working with the Opposition in a minority Parliament when wham! they hit him so unexpectedly. How ungrateful after he was being so conciliatory.

[jdobbin]

Duceppe has little to lose. Neither does Layton, really. Dion has nothing to lose either. Your party on the other hand, will be massacred if this thing ends in a train wreck. And don't expect any compassion from smiling Jack as he blames it all on the LPC, or Duceppe, as he returns triumphantly to Quebec to scoop up more Liberal party seats.

The Liberals were going to face an election in the next months anyways. Harper's intent was to make sure the Liberals were in the middle of their leadership and then call the election himself or provoke it with some outrageous brinkmanship ploy.

Harper made this a fight for survival since his intention is the complete and utter destruction of all opposition to him.

I don't know what will happen with the coalition but the alternative that Harper offered was worse.

Or do you think Harper has learned his lesson and won't try to pull something so self serving that it ends up where we are now?

[Argus]

Don't know that we can say what will happen. I don't sense a massive movement to the Tories over this. Nor do I see a surge to any other party.

In a couple of days? Wait a month or two. Watch and see what the West thinks of this. Watch and see what Ontario and Atlantic Canada think of your cozying up to separatists.

More to the point. One of the biggest obstacles to the NDP taking more votes away from the Liberals is that no one could really envision them as the government. Now there are going to be NDP cabinet ministers. And if the NDP is smart they will be reasonable, and businesslike, and dedicated, and not at all fanatic or ideological. They will comport themselves well, give many, many interviews everywhere, and do their very best to redress their not being seen as able to govern. And it WILL have an affect. You guys are thinking with your dicks. You are thinking very short term and you should be thinking long term. You are letting the NDP into a game where almost every new vote they get will be coming at your party's expense. If this goes poorly you not only won't be the official opposition next time around you risk being relegated to fourth party status.

You would have survived the loss of government funding. All you had to do was get your act together. And the cost to the BQ would have been huge - benefiting you in Quebec. Instead you morons are giving a huge boost to the BQ - in prestige, in letting them claim they have done so well for Quebec, and in abandoning your moral position as opposed to seperatists, all of which will tear you apart in Quebec - and given an even bigger boost to the NDP - which will siphone away votes and seats from you everywhere else. The Conservatives will survive long after Stephen Harper, but it's not clear the Liberals will. Your pathological hatred of Stephen Harper might well lead to the end of the Liberals as a national party.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Argus

[Argus]

Or do you think Harper has learned his lesson and won't try to pull something so self serving that it ends up where we are now?

Yes, as a matter of fact. I do think he's learned his lesson and would henceforth be considerably less arrogant and confrontational.

[Wild Bill]

Government and law are inseperable; odd, then, that laws and customs are important to know when analysing this affair. Or, are you trying to say they're not? That, instead, ignorance and emotional reaction to the denial of imaginary entitlements should rule the day?

No, I'm simply saying that when ordinary people get the chance to vote they don't care about all that! The wishes of ordinary Canadians DO rule the day at the ballot box!

How many people do you know who consult with constitutional lawyers before they cast their vote? Are you saying that because the people see some talking head on CBC NewsWorld stating that this coup is technically legal that they will all say to themselves "Oh well! It's ok then! And I will love them next election!"?

As I said in another post, the deal with Karla Homolka was legal, too. How does the ordinary Canadian feel about that?

[Moonbox]

That's a really good point Argus. That's why ultimately Harper is probably going to be happy to let this go through.

Giving the NDP more legitimacy isn't going to hurt the conservatives AT ALL. It's going to hurt the Liberals and that's about it.

On top of that cozying up to the NDP is a fairly big shift to the left for the Liberals. What do you think is going to happen with the small C's who have recently been voting liberal?

What do the conservatives have to lose here? They lose parliament I guess, but in dicey times like this who wants to be governing anyways?

I'd much prefer to have them running things and not start doling out money to useless corporations, but if they're replaced by the coalition I'll just shake my head and eagerly await the consequences in the next election.

[jdobbin]

I see this as perhaps bad for the Tories in the short term, perhaps very, very bad for the Liberals in in the medium to long term. And certainly bad for the country - not that has ever been a consideration for you guys, of course.

Your guys want an election in the next months anyway and to make sure that Opposition is so hamstrung that it can win a majority at ant cost. The obsession with the complete destruction of Liberals at all costs is bad for the country but it have never been a consideration for you Tory supporters or Harper. Had Harper focused on the economy and put aside is ideological and personal biases, he would have survived.

[jdobbin]

Madmax, I was merely pointing out the absurdity of claiming that a $300 million election is a "waste of money" while simultaneously saying that the government should spend $30 billion on a "stimulus package".

It now appears that the $30 billion number was something made up. Just heard Layton as well Dion say that they hadn't even mentioned any numbers so they aren't sure where they came from.

I was taken in by this news as well and was a little concerned that it was a number derived without looking at the books.

[Wild Bill]

If Harper's forthcoming anti-coalition campaign includes ads and speeches focusing on the 'scary'

Bloc, he risks a Quebec backlash that could eliminate remaining CPC seats in Quebec.

Tit for tat! If the Liberals succeed would you care to place a bet on how many decades it will be before the Liberals get more than a handful of seats in Western Canada?

How about a bet on how long it will take before an Alberta separatist party gets enough seats in their provincial parliament to take a shot at it?

It's obvious that you're one of those western Canadians who likes either the Liberals or the NDP. That's your right of course but I would find it hard to believe that you have a lot of company.

[Moonbox]

Your guys want an election in the next months anyway and to make sure that Opposition is so hamstrung that it can win a majority at ant cost. The obsession with the complete destruction of Liberals at all costs is bad for the country but it have never been a consideration for you Tory supporters or Harper. Had Harper focused on the economy and put aside is ideological and personal biases, he would have survived.

He would have survived and for how long? The opposition is literally frothing in its hatred for Harper. You CANNOT realistically say that they were prepared to cooperate with him, especially given the leaked transcripts where Layton confirmed this coalition had been in the works for months.

This situation is 100% about party subsidies and personally I REALLY think they needed to go anyways. We should not be taxed to support spending by parties that can't raise money on their own.

Trudeau and Chretien were the champions of election gag laws and they did it specifically to ruin and finish the federal PC's. I doubt you were fussing then. Now the situation is reversed and I'm finding it rather ironic how outraged you are.

[Wild Bill]

PS you did know I was jerking your chain on the ETR Right

Mais certainement, mon ami!

[jdobbin]

He would have survived and for how long? The opposition is literally frothing in its hatred for Harper. You CANNOT realistically say that they were prepared to cooperate with him, especially given the leaked transcripts where Layton confirmed this coalition had been in the works for months.

You cannot say that Harper was interested in cooperating. His absolute obsession with the Liberals and hatred for them guides his every step. The economy plays second fiddle to his constant maneuvers on how he can destroy the party.

The Liberals were not involved in any negotiation but Harper's deterioration to go an election while the Liberals were in their leadership campaign was plainly obvious and one of the reasons this past weekend he promised not to call an election for two years this weekend.

Harper can't be trusted though. His election timelines are fluid since he doesn't really believe in term limits.

This situation is 100% about party subsidies and personally I REALLY think they needed to go anyways. We should not be taxed to support spending by parties that can't raise money on their own.

Well, since that is off the table now, it is about a whole lot more, don't you think? It is about confidence now. The belief that Harper is the Prince of Darkness prevails and that he will continue to try and act like the ghoul he is and will only stop once a stake has been pounded in.

Trudeau and Chretien were the champions of election gag laws and they did it specifically to ruin and finish the federal PC's. I doubt you were fussing then. Now the situation is reversed and I'm finding it rather ironic how outraged you are.

I find it surprised that you didn't think this was going to be the result when politics is war.

[GostHacked]

Only a month and a half into the new government and we are looking at another election? WTFF??

All three are bitter about loosing to Harper, eventhough he has another minority government. This new government has not had much time to 'get things done'. It shows that the three opposition leaders don't want to work with the new government and never intended to.

I don't care much for Harper, but I would actually vote for him next time. We do not need a person with Frech Separatists goals at the helm.

God dammit, get to work and run the country. If you want to fix this finnancial crisis, get to work on it. Calling another election will only delay that process even more. Great thinking jerks. Not the leaders I want running my country.

I can't beleive I am actually standing up for Harper.

Duccepe, Dion, Layton. You idiots lost. Get over it and get to work.

[Smallc]

So what you're saying is the CBC guy wasn't so much interviewing Clement at all as brow-beating him, and not letting him talk, but instead giving his own opinion on everything. Have I got that right?

What he was giving was fact, not opinion. He wasn't letting Clement stick to talking point. he does the same thing to everyone, but with these two people in particular he was particularly aggressive because they were simply lying and he was pointing out what the constitution actually says and that listening in on converations is illegal even if something is sent to you by accident.

[kuzadd]

Two decimal places separate $30 billion from $300 million but I'm surprised no one has realized, according to the logic of the NDP, that an election is not "wasted money" - it's just another "stimulus package".

With an election, we put $300 million in the hands of ordinary Canadians across Canada and ask them to do a few paper work tasks.

How can one advocate a "stimulus package" and then claim that an election is a waste of money?

Who is advocating a stimulus package?

I merely stated that the Conservatives have been throwing money around very well.

Including that wasted election, that btw went in direct opposition to harpers own promises. (fixed election dates)

""Fixed election dates prevent governments from calling snap elections for short-term political advantage," Harper said. "They level the playing field for all parties and the rules are clear for everybody."

and one more thing

Cry us a river, Tories, but who wrote the book on chaos?

Last year, the governing Conservatives prepared a secret handbook on how to disrupt parliamentary committees and create chaos. No mere pamphlet, the book ran to 200 pages.

It instructed committee chairmen to select blatantly biased witnesses and tutor them in advance. It gave the chairmen pointers on how to obstruct parliamentary business, to storm out of meetings if necessary.

Cooperation has not been on the agenda with the tories from the previous minority up to this one.

A government who wishes to cooperate doesn't go to such lengths.

Just the facts.

[jdobbin]

I don't care much for Harper, but I would actually vote for him next time. We do not need a person with Frech Separatists goals at the helm.

Harper brought this on himself and was going to call an election in the next six months anyways. He can't be trusted to not be hyperpartisan.

[stevoh]

All three are bitter about loosing to Harper, eventhough he has another minority government. This new government has not had much time to 'get things done'. It shows that the three opposition leaders don't want to work with the new government and never intended to.

Cutting off funding for the parties was a massively stupid mistake on the part of Harper. I think the opposition was quite happy to be lame ducks that occasionally quacked loudly before Harper tried to hamstring them.

All this other political stuff is garbage, the coalition got motivation and strength from having the conservatives attempt to cut their funding. What did he expect?

Stupid stupid move. Its almost like Harper forgot he was in a minority government. He tried to push through funding cuts and union freezes thinking that no-party would dare to oppose him and trigger another election and the wrath of Canadians.

He was wrong. And that is why we are in the situation we are in.

Harper engineered his own parties loss of power.

[cybercoma]

Laws and customs are actually two entirely different things. If you examine the writings of the pundits in various newspapers and magazines, and on TV all of them quite candidly admit the whole thing is technically legal and yet they say it goes against custom, against tradition, and is not the way Canadians expect governments to change. Randal Denley probably put it the most succintly in the Citizen.

Three of the least credible men in Canadian politics are about to seize control of our government in a virtual coup that is perfectly legal, and perfectly wrong. Randall Denley, Ottawa Citizen

Denley, btw, was harshly critical of Harper over the last few days, as were the rest of the pundits. In fact, all of them blame him for his arrogance and stupidity in bringing this about. But now all of them have turned to condemning the opposition for being power mad, calling this, basically, an illegitimate way to take power which goes against tradition - legal or not. Unpopular men rejected resoundingly by the people ought not to be ale to become Prime Minister based on a loophole. None of them think it's right, and none of them think anything good will come of it.

That is the most reasonable view I've seen on this whole sordid affair.

[Vancouver King]

That's a really good point Argus. That's why ultimately Harper is probably going to be happy to let this go through.

Giving the NDP more legitimacy isn't going to hurt the conservatives AT ALL. It's going to hurt the Liberals and that's about it.

On top of that cozying up to the NDP is a fairly big shift to the left for the Liberals. What do you think is going to happen with the small C's who have recently been voting liberal?

What do the conservatives have to lose here? They lose parliament I guess, but in dicey times like this who wants to be governing anyways?

I'd much prefer to have them running things and not start doling out money to useless corporations, but if they're replaced by the coalition I'll just shake my head and eagerly await the consequences in the next election.

What if this Liberal/NDP cozying up leads to every left of center politico's dream - amalgamation of the two parties? A permanent coalition. How many generations of wandering the wasteland would that spell for the CPC?