Ontario to Recieve Equalization

[M.Dancer]

Ontario is essentially being destroyed because we have a western-based regional party in power.

Which do you struggle with more, math or reality?

143 seats are conservative. 72 are outside the west. So much for "western based regional party".

Now if you can, explain how the Conservatives managed to raise the value of the dollar during the Chretien Martin years, increase the value of oil and devastate the North American Auto market...

[Argus]

Western Canadian oil and ag has gone through a period of very tough times in the late 80's and 90's, some Ontarians (as can be seen on this board by other Ontarians) have told us to go fly a kite, if your industry is not successful it should be done away with, etc.

And you read this through tea leaves? Because I don't recall anyone saying that around here.

[Argus]

That is correct. The CPC have been fiddling for 2 years.

Uh huh, while the provincial Liberals were increasing spending by 50% and raking in $25 billion more per year in taxes.

[Argus]

Ontario is essentially being destroyed because we have a western-based regional party in power. What's happening here is no different than some thug beating a man down, robbing him of his wallet and then turning around and giving him some change so he can take the bus home.

You're not entirely sane, are you.

[madmax]

Our PM and his brilliant Finance Minister have come through for the fine fine people of Ontario once again. In the face of defiance they deliver yet again. That's thje type of respect our PM and the Finance Minister have for this province. This province is much more than just Toronto, it has very diverse and vibrant communities in both urban and rural areas. Luckily we have strong leaders who know that. Without partisanship our PM has once again shown the great leader that he is and has delivered some extra money for the people of this great and wondrous province.

The Federal Government has failed the largest, most populous province in Canada, and the economic engine since confederation. There is nothing Brilliant about this. The Harper government did not create the transfer payment system of equalization. Ontario receiving transfer payments for the first time in history is the acknowledgement of incompetence and failure.

maple syrup

[Argus]

"western based"

The party has its roots in the Reform/CA--a western political movement/party. It doesn't matter how many seats it gets in the rest of Canada, the party is "based" in Alberta. Harper even stated when he won in 2006 that the West was "finally in".

This is so stupid. The Reform Party was largely created and supported by Progressive Conservative people who had abandoned that party because it became too left wing, because, in essence, it became nothing more than another Liberal party. As it morphed into the Alliance, then the Conservatives, it attracted more and more of the conservatives from the PC party, and then a lot of the progressives, as well. Today there is essentially little difference between the Conservative Party and the Progessive Conservative Party except that Harper is stronger and more conservative than that clown Joe Clark.

[madmax]

The chickens are coming home to roost.

Dwight Duncan, new arrival as Finance Minister for the Ontario Liberals has just woken up, unfortuneately he forgets to lay blame at his parties own feet, while they were taking a nap.

The CPC are fiddling while the Ontario Liberals are playing the violin.

Praising federal NDP Leader Jack Layton for "having the guts to stand up and tell it like it is," Duncan added he expects more from Liberal and Tory MPs.

But Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory said the provincial Liberals should be ashamed of themselves.

"What they should really be embarrassed about is the fact that over the last four years we've gone from have to have-not, we've gone from massive surplus to deficit," Tory told reporters.

"They should be embarrassed that they have no restraint program to tighten their own belts when Ontario families are suffering," he said.

Ontario NDP Leader Howard Hampton said the Liberals have done nothing to boost the economy.

"Ontario has to come up with a strategy, and a strategy of blame Ottawa is not going to help sustain jobs, it's not going to turn this around," said Hampton.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/530716

[Oleg Bach]

Great! I guess that my soul destroying - mind numbing welfare check will continue to come though - which enables me to just breathe and do nothing else other than employ bureacrats. Not to mention the slow incrimental onset of mental illness that is caused by socialism - Thanks Canada - instead of opportunity for your best - you create prisons without walls - what a joke - socialist like mayor miller are actually jail wardens.

[White Doors]

Great! I guess that my soul destroying - mind numbing welfare check will continue to come though - which enables me to just breathe and do nothing else other than employ bureacrats. Not to mention the slow incrimental onset of mental illness that is caused by socialism - Thanks Canada - instead of opportunity for your best - you create prisons without walls - what a joke - socialist like mayor miller are actually jail wardens.

ok...

but slow incremental onset of mental illness?

[Argus]

The Federal Government has failed the largest, most populous province in Canada, and the economic engine since confederation. There is nothing Brilliant about this. The Harper government did not create the transfer payment system of equalization. Ontario receiving transfer payments for the first time in history is the acknowledgement of incompetence and failure.

maple syrup

By it's Liberal government.

[guyser]

Agriculture and Uranium are also doing very well for us. Diamonds and potash as well. Lumber is somewhat lacking though. Ag manufacturing is doing well as well. The little towns with their little machinery factories are doing well.

I certainly did not mean to offend that there is nothing other than oil. So if that was how it was taken I apologize.

Yes, numerous sectors out west are doing well, and great for them . Success in this country, no matter where it is found, brings this country up a notch.

Western Canadian oil and ag has gone through a period of very tough times in the late 80's and 90's, some Ontarians (as can be seen on this board by other Ontarians) have told us to go fly a kite, if your industry is not successful it should be done away with, etc. Now Ontario's manufacturing sector is in the toilet and that sector is asking for help. Hmmm. It's a good laugh.

Apart from the kengs of this country, I doubt schadenfruede is a common trait.

We're "happy" because the shoe is on the other foot and are not needing Ontario anymore. Call it a solution to an inferiority complex.

So, because you dont "need" Ontarios money anymore, you are gleeful at the troubles that the bank you withdrew millions from is going under.

Ok , sad ,but if thats how you see it.....

[guyser]

For those of us who don't live in economic backwaters of Manitoba, this is great news. My area does not need Ontario's money to prosper let alone exist.

Now...but historically?

. Why should we always have to go to Ontario cap in hand? Don't worry, when all those dams get built Manitoba won't need handouts either.

Something , perhaps, that Ontario asked when handing putting the cheque in the held out cap?

. Ontario has pillaged the west for oil in the 70's, has snubbed off our agriculture sector, saying it's up to us to solve it.

Except it did not pillage any oil. Dont keep the myth alive.

[Brunopolis]

Why are so many people happy that Ontario is having trouble? If Ontario goes down the tubes so does the rest of Canada. The Federal government's pot to draw money from will be limited to the west and this means that the government will have to claw even more money out of the west to make sure the east gets comparative services. Everyone ends up losing.

Also, remember that we are one country. If Ontario does poorly people will flee from that area to a more prosperous one. Enjoy Alberta being flooded by Ontarians. You'll be Liberal one day whether you like it or not. 8)

[marksman]

How sad that people take this opportunity to insult other Canadians. You're happy that other provinces are having economic problems? What's wrong with you? I suggest you deal with your admitted inferiority complex in a different way. Most Ontarians don't take pleasure in seeing other parts of the country struggle and the few that do are fools just like those taking pleasure in Ontario's problems right now.

Even now Ontario continues to pour billions of dollars into other parts of the country so why gloat when some of it needs to come back through equalization payments?

The economic problems Ontario faces can be blamed on a number of factors including the provincial and federal governments. The Ontario Liberals should be doing more and so should the federal Conservatives.

Anyone who thinks we've got a great PM or brilliant finance minister when these people are publicly insulting Ontario and telling businesses to invest somewhere else is completely deluded. Unless your definition of brilliant is making a problem worse.

[blueblood]

I certainly did not mean to offend that there is nothing other than oil. So if that was how it was taken I apologize.

Yes, numerous sectors out west are doing well, and great for them . Success in this country, no matter where it is found, brings this country up a notch.

Apart from the kengs of this country, I doubt schadenfruede is a common trait.

So, because you dont "need" Ontarios money anymore, you are gleeful at the troubles that the bank you withdrew millions from is going under.

Ok , sad ,but if thats how you see it.....

And I will be happier when Ontarians elect a gov't that is a lot more business friendly, and has better economic policies. Let me be clear, I am grateful that those Ontarians like Kengs, get taken down a peg. I won't be grateful if your gov't keeps its bonehead economic policies going and the equalization payments end up to being as large as Quebec.

Now...but historically?

We had the LPC and their abysmal agriculture policies, that benefitted Ontario, so historically yes. But now we have better agricultural policies so my area of MB per say is doing well economically, the central portion of the province that is near the lakes or in the bush, not so.

Something , perhaps, that Ontario asked when handing putting the cheque in the held out cap?

Call that a wise investment, you guys will get cheap power, and we get off the welfare train.

Except it did not pillage any oil. Dont keep the myth alive.

NEP, anyone. If they want to implement NEP so easterners get cheap oil, why not implement a manufacturing policy so all of Canadians get cheap Ontario manufactured goods?

[guyser]

And I will be happier when Ontarians elect a gov't that is a lot more business friendly, and has better economic policies. Let me be clear, I am grateful that those Ontarians like Kengs, get taken down a peg.

Yes, well, we agree on that. Mcguinty is a failure, we all know that. But Tory made a bonehead move and lost the election over it.

We had the LPC and their abysmal agriculture policies, that benefitted Ontario, so historically yes. But now we have better agricultural policies so my area of MB per say is doing well economically, the central portion of the province that is near the lakes or in the bush, not so.

On that I have no comment. I dont know the reasoning nor the history, however you do seem up on the AG stuff, so I cant refute any of what you say.

NEP, anyone. If they want to implement NEP so easterners get cheap oil, why not implement a manufacturing policy so all of Canadians get cheap Ontario manufactured goods?

Well it wasnt just for easterners, it was to balance the pricing.There was to be two tier pricing, US/Can, and then the world. So much went wrong after that, most of which could not be foreseen, that it has attained mythological status.

To blame Ottawa for the market conditions that ensued is folly

[craiger]

I would think a simple solution would to refine bitumen in canada and sell to Canadians and business cheaper. Reason so many business suffer in canada is high energy costs if we could cutt that our industry's would be more competative on the global market.

I think a nationalized oil company would be a great answer to our problems makes no sense sending high paying jobs shiping top soil out of the country to buy back. Besides Americans made it clear cancelling refinery expansion in Chicago they don't want our dirty oil we would be better off selling the final product gasoline and deisel that is where the money is and creates jobs constructiing refinery's

[blueblood]

Yes, well, we agree on that. Mcguinty is a failure, we all know that. But Tory made a bonehead move and lost the election over it.

On that I have no comment. I dont know the reasoning nor the history, however you do seem up on the AG stuff, so I cant refute any of what you say.

Well it wasnt just for easterners, it was to balance the pricing.There was to be two tier pricing, US/Can, and then the world. So much went wrong after that, most of which could not be foreseen, that it has attained mythological status.

To blame Ottawa for the market conditions that ensued is folly

It shouldn't be two tier pricing, it should be one price, the world price, and that's where it is. Canada is benefitting from that. That is the problem westerners have, we could be selling oil for X dollars, law is enacted that oil sells for 85% of X dollars. Thankfully that program got scuttled.

The oil price crash of the 80's is irrelevant.

[blueblood]

I would think a simple solution would to refine bitumen in canada and sell to Canadians and business cheaper. Reason so many business suffer in canada is high energy costs if we could cutt that our industry's would be more competative on the global market.

I think a nationalized oil company would be a great answer to our problems makes no sense sending high paying jobs shiping top soil out of the country to buy back. Besides Americans made it clear cancelling refinery expansion in Chicago they don't want our dirty oil we would be better off selling the final product gasoline and deisel that is where the money is and creates jobs constructiing refinery's

Try getting lefties on board with spending billions of dollars to set up a company and construct these huge projects. Billions that could be spent elsewhere. We have a very good situation now.

[craiger]

Try getting lefties on board with spending billions of dollars to set up a company and construct these huge projects. Billions that could be spent elsewhere. We have a very good situation now.

We did it before with petro canada canadian taxpayers foot the bill and we made tons of money's. When the lefty sees we create thousands of jobs and we can provide cheaper energy I don't see how they can complain.

I would start building refinery's around winnepeg a central distribution point where labour is cheaper and where the east needs jobs. Feds already promised billions to the private sector I feel Canadians would feel more proud building and owning something that is theirs.

what angers lefties is the idea of handouts in the billions to the private sector, who in turn sell out fellow Canadians for cheaper labour and something they will never own yet they pay for it.

Edited November 5, 2008 by craiger

[guyser]

It shouldn't be two tier pricing, it should be one price, the world price, and that's where it is. Canada is benefitting from that. That is the problem westerners have, we could be selling oil for X dollars, law is enacted that oil sells for 85% of X dollars. Thankfully that program got scuttled.

The world price should have been the only price. But the Premier agreed to the change, since the offshoot benefits were superb for his province.

The oil price crash of the 80's is irrelevant.

IN fact the oil crash is the single most important facet of what happened out west .

Consumer demand dropped , the recession hit hard ,OPEC's grip was loosened as other supplies were found, and the expected price of $80 BBL never materialized, and the skid started from $45 to $18bbl.

Since 80%+ of exploration and wild cat drilling was being paid by Ottawa, on money they gained for the plan, if the plan doesnt work because the money doesnt get paid, what other outcome could there be?

[Wild Bill]

NEP, anyone. If they want to implement NEP so easterners get cheap oil, why not implement a manufacturing policy so all of Canadians get cheap Ontario manufactured goods?

Well, that's not how the NEP worked the first time! We Easterners never got cheap oil! The feds did!

The way it worked was that we in the East got oil from countries like Libya and Venezuela. With no pipeline to Alberta it was cheaper by tanker. We had to pay world price for each barrel.

The NEP gave Alberta $14/bbl and the feds took the difference from the world price for themselves! This of course gave the Liberals a nice slush fund to dole back as grants to buy votes all around the country.

I am REALLY tired of Westerners who still believe that we in the East got their oil cheap. The story is a load of crap! We paid the same price at the pumps as we always did... a HIGH one! If there was a PetroCan somewhere selling gas way cheaper than any other station, it must have been very well hidden! I never heard of anyone in Ontario ever finding it!

As Manning said years ago, the real enemy is not each other. It's Ottawa!!!

[craiger]

I cannot say Petro Can provided cheaper gas, could have done so, but nobody knows.

What it did was create jobs in the 80's when we had nothing, a investment in our future. Wich in turn put the oilsands on the map when the private sector had no faith in us. we made out good because we invested and believed in ourselves.

Edited November 5, 2008 by craiger

[blueblood]

We did it before with petro canada canadian taxpayers foot the bill and we made tons of money's. When the lefty sees we create thousands of jobs and we can provide cheaper energy I don't see how they can complain.

I would start building refinery's around winnepeg a central distribution point where labour is cheaper and where the east needs jobs. Feds already promised billions to the private sector I feel Canadians would feel more proud building and owning something that is theirs.

what angers lefties is the idea of handouts in the billions to the private sector, who in turn sell out fellow Canadians for cheaper labour and something they will never own yet they pay for it.

i have no problem with crown corporations, none at all. I've made that point clear in other posts. Some people don't like the idea of spending money on oil.

A refinery in winnipeg would be useless. There still would need to be a pipe line out east. A refinery would be better suited in Southern Ontario and perhaps another one around Lloydminster. However refineries are billion dollar operations, would you like your tax dollars to increase to pay for this?

[guyser]

The NEP gave Alberta $14/bbl and the feds took the difference from the world price for themselves! This of course gave the Liberals a nice slush fund to dole back as grants to buy votes all around the country.

The Feds paid a capped rate at 85% of the world price. If that price was $14, it was only by chance. The price went up to $45 before the recession, oil embargo etc kicked in.

The slush fund didnt materialize either since the high taxes expected never materialized due to the drop in price, thus the Feds were paying out huge to the oil co's without getting anything in the back door.

I am REALLY tired of Westerners who still believe that we in the East got their oil cheap. As Manning said years ago, the real enemy is not each other. It's Ottawa!!!

Hey, as a myth, it has worked well.

Never heard Manning say that, but he is right.