Ontario to Recieve Equalization

[craiger]

i have no problem with crown corporations, none at all. I've made that point clear in other posts. Some people don't like the idea of spending money on oil.

A refinery in winnipeg would be useless. There still would need to be a pipe line out east. A refinery would be better suited in Southern Ontario and perhaps another one around Lloydminster. However refineries are billion dollar operations, would you like your tax dollars to increase to pay for this?

yes I would, as I see it a profitable investment. Edmonton alone wants to spend $3 billion on a worlds fair that will lose half a billion dollars so they can try and suck more money frome the feds and province. Building a refinery in Ontario is smart also as they hold a great number of the population same with quebec I would rather see job creation in Canada and something canadians will own with their tax dollars.

I am not fooling, they are planning to send our top soil to Asia and create jobs their with our tax dollars.

[marksman]

I would think a simple solution would to refine bitumen in canada and sell to Canadians and business cheaper. Reason so many business suffer in canada is high energy costs if we could cutt that our industry's would be more competative on the global market.

I think a nationalized oil company would be a great answer to our problems makes no sense sending high paying jobs shiping top soil out of the country to buy back. Besides Americans made it clear cancelling refinery expansion in Chicago they don't want our dirty oil we would be better off selling the final product gasoline and deisel that is where the money is and creates jobs constructiing refinery's

Energy costs in Canada have been 1 of the lowest in the world. If we aren't competitive because of energy costs then we're done for because everyone else seems to compete with higher costs.

[Wild Bill]

Energy costs in Canada have been 1 of the lowest in the world. If we aren't competitive because of energy costs then we're done for because everyone else seems to compete with higher costs.

I wonder if when the "powers that be" calculate energy costs if they include transportation costs. After all, in smaller european countries if you have a power source it is always relatively close. Here in Canada most of the sources always seem to be hundreds or thousands of miles away, with the exception of Niagara Falls.

Power from Churchill Falls in Labrador doesn't appear in Kingston, Ontario with no costs for transmission lines and their losses. Oil and gas from the NWT still need pipelines and Ontario doesn't get electricity from Manitoba or much gas from Alberta.

It doesn't seem fair not to include these factors when some tropical third world country wants to have us snowbound folks declared energy pigs that owe them a pile of Kyoto credits!

Apples and apples, after all.

[craiger]

Energy costs in Canada have been 1 of the lowest in the world. If we aren't competitive because of energy costs then we're done for because everyone else seems to compete with higher costs.

your false we all pay the same on the open market diference is in taxes and labour costs.

[M.Dancer]

your false we all pay the same on the open market diference is in taxes and labour costs.

Hydro isn't sold on the open market

[craiger]

Hydro isn't sold on the open market

Really eh i did not know that. how come the two teir system to hydro?

My understanding we are building large lines to the US open market in Alberta, or is this just a province thing?

Edited November 6, 2008 by craiger

[M.Dancer]

Really eh i did not know that. how come the two teir system to hydro?

My understanding we are building large lines to the US open market in Alberta, or is this just a province thing?

Contracts...bulk buyers, resellers.....Simply put there is no world hydro price.

[blueblood]

Contracts...bulk buyers, resellers.....Simply put there is no world hydro price.

Hydro as far as I know is all run by crown corporations. They can offer some nice discounts.

[M.Dancer]

Really eh i did not know that. how come the two teir system to hydro?

My understanding we are building large lines to the US open market in Alberta, or is this just a province thing?

Contracts...bulk buyers, resellers.....Simply put there is no world hydro price.

[craiger]

Contracts...bulk buyers, resellers.....Simply put there is no world hydro price.

good to know.I would like to get to the bottom of this and find the individuals who will profit

[marksman]

I wonder if when the "powers that be" calculate energy costs if they include transportation costs. After all, in smaller european countries if you have a power source it is always relatively close. Here in Canada most of the sources always seem to be hundreds or thousands of miles away, with the exception of Niagara Falls.

Power from Churchill Falls in Labrador doesn't appear in Kingston, Ontario with no costs for transmission lines and their losses. Oil and gas from the NWT still need pipelines and Ontario doesn't get electricity from Manitoba or much gas from Alberta.

It doesn't seem fair not to include these factors when some tropical third world country wants to have us snowbound folks declared energy pigs that owe them a pile of Kyoto credits!

Apples and apples, after all.

The costs compared were the prices people and customers actually paid.

So no need to go creating strawman arguments. What would make you jump to that conclusion anyway?

[marksman]

your false we all pay the same on the open market diference is in taxes and labour costs.

What sort of doublespeak is that? I'm wrong that Canada has low energy costs because everyone pays the same except there's a difference in taxes and labour costs? How can everyone pay the same if there're differences?

If you think people in Canada pay the same energy costs as people in Russia or Brazil or any other country in the world then you're mistaken.

[craiger]

What sort of doublespeak is that? I'm wrong that Canada has low energy costs because everyone pays the same except there's a difference in taxes and labour costs? How can everyone pay the same if there're differences?

If you think people in Canada pay the same energy costs as people in Russia or Brazil or any other country in the world then you're mistaken.

We pay the same except for country's that are Nationalized

Nationalized country's pay the least in fuel last I heard cuba was paying .20 cents a gallon

USA pays lower gas prices than Canada due to taxes

China can produce gasoliine cheaper than Canada can do to cheap labour

Europe pays high gas prices on purpose to fund energy eficient infastructure (tax)

show me some facts before we debate anything. As I have based everything on facts and you don't

thank you

you also fail to understand the barrel is purchased in american dollars this is vital to why some country's pay more.

I rest my case

Edited November 6, 2008 by craiger

[blueblood]

We pay the same except for country's that are Nationalized

Nationalized country's pay the least in fuel last I heard cuba was paying .20 cents a gallon

USA pays lower gas prices than Canada due to taxes

China can produce gasoliine cheaper than Canada can do to cheap labour

show me some facts before we debate anything. As I have based everything on facts and you don't

thank you

And here's a fact where nationalization screws Canadian business

ctv

In your position, it makes sense that oil prices are high. When oil prices go down, it hurts you more than other people.

Your logic is certainly lacking. Lowering the price of what we produce for the sake of lower prices is stupid economics. Everyone can pay world price for private goods. Those private companies employ a lot of people, contribute to the TSX, our country is a lot richer when we have private companies do well.

Nationalized countries also have people living in shit holes. You tell me who is better off, the average Albertan with our private system or the average Venezuelan with their socialist nonsense.

US gas is lower because of proximity to oil refineries as well as taxes.

[craiger]

And here's a fact where nationalization screws Canadian business

ctv

In your position, it makes sense that oil prices are high. When oil prices go down, it hurts you more than other people.

Your logic is certainly lacking. Lowering the price of what we produce for the sake of lower prices is stupid economics. Everyone can pay world price for private goods. Those private companies employ a lot of people, contribute to the TSX, our country is a lot richer when we have private companies do well.

Nationalized countries also have people living in shit holes. You tell me who is better off, the average Albertan with our private system or the average Venezuelan with their socialist nonsense.

US gas is lower because of proximity to oil refineries as well as taxes.

good you agree with me

when the price of oil drops refinery's make money when the price of crude rises crude makes money.

Reason why Alberta at most is suseptable to the boom and bust cycle. we have nothing to balance the economy.

we also cannot compair to cuba as we are free trade with out the restriction in the flow of a final product you could see our economy double,

Edited November 6, 2008 by craiger

[marksman]

I rest my case

You rest your case and you lose. You're welcome. Now let me tell you why. When you say energy costs that's not the same as crude oil costs. It's not even the same as gas costs or fuel costs. This is what you said

Reason so many business suffer in canada is high energy costs if we could cutt that our industry's would be more competative on the global market.

It's a fact that Canada has low energy prices.

As for your last post you haven't based anything on facts.

We pay the same except for country's that are Nationalized

Do we pay the same electricity prices or gas prices as the US? Is the US nationalized? What about the UK? So no fact there that supports your new argument that we all pay the same energy costs.

Nationalized country's pay the least in fuel last I heard cuba was paying .20 cents a gallon

USA pays lower gas prices than Canada due to taxes

China can produce gasoliine cheaper than Canada can do to cheap labour

Europe pays high gas prices on purpose to fund energy eficient infastructure (tax)

show me some facts before we debate anything. As I have based everything on facts and you don't

Now you're talking fuel instead of energy. And all of this still goes to show how Canadians do not pay the same as people in other countries for their gas.

you also fail to understand the barrel is purchased in american dollars this is vital to why some country's pay more.

You fail to understand that energy doesn't come in barrels. If you want to talk about crude oil costs then don't say energy costs. You also fail to understand that if you're talking about Canadian industries those industries don't buy barrels of crude oil. Even if they did buy crude oil directly businesses aren't less competitive only because of the price of a barrel of oil.

You also fail to understand that just because a price is reported in US dollars across the world for consistency that doesn't mean the barrel is purchased in US dollars. This last line even contradicts everything you just said. If everyone pays the same for a barrel how can you then say that some countries pay more just because the price is in US dollars?

I don't even know why you're trying to argue this. Your point was that energy costs need to come down so Canadian businesses can be globally competitive. This implies that we aren't paying the same prices as others so how can you now say it's all the same?

Using your language if you want to debate something try to have a consistent position 1st. And know what you want to talk about instead of changing between energy and crude oil. And just because you say you've based your arguments on facts doesn't make it true.

[craiger]

you also fail to recognize the costs we commited to reclaiming the land.

wich has been to said to be imposible with our current funds, we dug a hole we cannot afford.

The future bread and butter is in green technology something we have not done

Edited November 6, 2008 by craiger

[Brunopolis]

And here's a fact where nationalization screws Canadian business

ctv

In your position, it makes sense that oil prices are high. When oil prices go down, it hurts you more than other people.

Your logic is certainly lacking. Lowering the price of what we produce for the sake of lower prices is stupid economics. Everyone can pay world price for private goods. Those private companies employ a lot of people, contribute to the TSX, our country is a lot richer when we have private companies do well.

Nationalized countries also have people living in shit holes. You tell me who is better off, the average Albertan with our private system or the average Venezuelan with their socialist nonsense.

US gas is lower because of proximity to oil refineries as well as taxes.

What a terrible comparison. Comparing Alberta to Venezuela? It's hard to be poor in Alberta(try surviving winter being homeless) and Alberta only has 3.5 million citizens to take care of compared to Venezuela's 28. Alberta also has the rest of Canada to rely on should things go sour. Norway seems to be doing fine with their nationalized petroleum sector and that is a far better comparison to Alberta than Venezuela is. Don't just assume socialism is the only cause of their woes. Particularly when you are picking and choosing examples that fit your theory.

Disregarding the fact that Venezuela had privatized oil fields for the longest time(before 1999) the poverty has been getting worse.

http://www.iadb.org/sds/publication/publication_9_e.htm

Are things better with Chavez? A little bit. Poverty has decreased significantly and education and health spending has gone up. I'm hardly saying he's perfect. I personally think he's a pretty lousy leader but he's miles ahead of the previous Venezuelan leaderships.

[Argus]

Describe it as you wish, but it's still a net payment.

I give you $5 and you give me $7 - I got $2.

Anyway, McGuinty wanted fairness. He got it.

And as I note above, without Canada, Ontario is just another Michigan.

and in other news -

Under the equalization program alone, equalization revenues for Quebec jumped to $8-billion this year from $4.8-billion in 2005-2006.

And did that fill Quebecers with love for the tories? Not a bit of it! Instead Charest was front and centre during the election whining that the 'fiscal imbalance" still hadn't been adressed, and Quebec deserved still more - and more - and more.

[Brunopolis]

and in other news -

Under the equalization program alone, equalization revenues for Quebec jumped to $8-billion this year from $4.8-billion in 2005-2006.

And did that fill Quebecers with love for the tories? Not a bit of it! Instead Charest was front and centre during the election whining that the 'fiscal imbalance" still hadn't been adressed, and Quebec deserved still more - and more - and more.

I dont even know what data the government uses to determine who gets and pays what in the equalization pot. Considering the fact it can change so drastically from 1 year to another I think the government just makes up the data on the spot to make sure the payments are ¨correct¨.

[Smallc]

I dont even know what data the government uses to determine who gets and pays what in the equalization pot. Considering the fact it can change so drastically from 1 year to another I think the government just makes up the data on the spot to make sure the payments are ¨correct¨.

No, for last year, BC was determined to be the province with a fiscal capacity to operate. That means they had just enough to stay out of equalization. They tend to go in and out of the program. So, all other provinces are usually brought up to the approximate level of BC in terms of their fiscal capacity. From now on, Equalization will be what was paid this year plus the increase in nominal GDP.

[blueblood]

What a terrible comparison. Comparing Alberta to Venezuela? It's hard to be poor in Alberta(try surviving winter being homeless) and Alberta only has 3.5 million citizens to take care of compared to Venezuela's 28. Alberta also has the rest of Canada to rely on should things go sour. Norway seems to be doing fine with their nationalized petroleum sector and that is a far better comparison to Alberta than Venezuela is. Don't just assume socialism is the only cause of their woes. Particularly when you are picking and choosing examples that fit your theory.

Disregarding the fact that Venezuela had privatized oil fields for the longest time(before 1999) the poverty has been getting worse.

http://www.iadb.org/sds/publication/publication_9_e.htm

Are things better with Chavez? A little bit. Poverty has decreased significantly and education and health spending has gone up. I'm hardly saying he's perfect. I personally think he's a pretty lousy leader but he's miles ahead of the previous Venezuelan leaderships.

Terrible comparison my ass. Look at how the average Albertan lives to the average Venezuelan. By that logic the citizens of the NWT and Nunavut should be millionaires as there are only a few thousand of them and oil and natural resources are plentiful up there. No my comparison still stands.

I'm happy you brought up Norway. The average Albertan has a bigger house, nicer vehicles, and larger bank accounts with less taxes to pay on top of it. Alberta is doing much better than Norway is with their nationalized petroleum sector. Not punishing people for getting ahead allows for people to do well. Socialism is a pathetic dated joke and has been rejected for good reasons by Albertans. By not having socialism has enabled Alberta to be one of the richest areas of the world, Norway isn't even close to the living standards Albertans enjoy.

Chavez is a piss poor leader. Kuwait and Dubai were at one point very poor regions of the world, now with oil money are doing well. Not Alberta well, but well enough and better than Venezuela. Chavez basically has a gold mine and is pissing it all away. That only reaffirms my position that socialism is a pathetic dated joke.

The venezuelan's had 10 years to clean up their mess with socialism and they're still living in squalor.

[Smallc]

By not having socialism has enabled Alberta to be one of the richest areas of the world, Norway isn't even close to the living standards Albertans enjoy.

Does Alberta have public education? Police? A Public Health System? I'm sure there are more. There is no such thing as a completely capitalist or socialist system. We have a liberal democratic system with elements from all sides. Socialism hasn't been completely rejected, we just balance the different ideologies to create our society. In my view it works well.

[blueblood]

good you agree with me

when the price of oil drops refinery's make money when the price of crude rises crude makes money.

Reason why Alberta at most is suseptable to the boom and bust cycle. we have nothing to balance the economy.

we also cannot compair to cuba as we are free trade with out the restriction in the flow of a final product you could see our economy double,

Alberta has a balance, it's called agriculture. It's also a very big industry for Canada. Alberta has also spent some of its oil money on those windmills in southern alberta. Alberta's service sector is also growing. There is a lot of oil still in Alberta, still plenty of time for a strategy.

Like hell we can't compare to cuba. Their ridiculous government screwed their country over. Don't want to play by the american's rules, live in squalor, it's that simple.

[blueblood]

Does Alberta have public education? Police? A Public Health System? I'm sure there are more. There is no such thing as a completely capitalist or socialist system. We have a liberal democratic system with elements from all sides. Socialism hasn't been completely rejected, we just balance the different ideologies to create our society. In my view it works well.

Does Alberta have sky high taxes? Is the oil industry nationalized? Are there private businesses?

Face it socialism sucks.