Rape victim, 13, stoned to death in Somalia

[Hcheh]

Personal attacks are not permitted on MLW. I'd like to keep the discussion about the ideas and not the person.

That's asking the impossible from M.Dancer. May as well ask him to climb Everest in nothing more than a pair of Speedos.

Now I see what you mean..

Gee, talk about seeing into the future

[kengs333]

Now I see what you mean..

Gee, talk about seeing into the future

From the very day that I started posting here, M.Dancer has been making personal attacks. He's got close to 10,000 posts, and my guess is that between 95-98% of them contain some sort of insult or personal attack. Try not to view him as the victim, because he isn't. He's one of a handful of members who can go around with seeming impunity hounding, baiting, attacking other members. Why a certain group of members get special consideration is beyond me.

[Hcheh]

From the very day that I started posting here, M.Dancer has been making personal attacks. He's got close to 10,000 posts, and my guess is that between 95-98% of them contain some sort of insult or personal attack. Try not to view him as the victim, because he isn't. He's one of a handful of members who can go around with seeming impunity hounding, baiting, attacking other members. Why a certain group of members get special consideration is beyond me.

Haha, don't worry, I am not singling M.dancer out as the victim. I remain neutral to all discussion participants.

Anyhow, I typed that post because it was funny how irrelevant Mr.Canada's post was until after he actually posted it.. Tells you something doesn't it

[Argus]

There's a difference between what the CPC is and what it would be if they had a majority. Harper has already displayed an authoritarian streak that should be of concern to all Canadians.

No more so than did Chretien and Martin and Trudeau.

[White Doors]

Good luck finding one of dose tings.

"A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

Too bad, I thought you might actually put an effort in proving your assertions.

Turns out you just like to say idiotic things and then run away.

pity

[kengs333]

No more so than did Chretien and Martin and Trudeau.

Martin authoritarian? LOLOLOLOL

[Mr.Canada]

Extremist, Islamic, Patriarchal, Totalitarian Law = Bad

Moderate Laws = Good

[Oleg Bach]

Extremist, Islamic, Patriarchal, Totalitarian Law = Bad

Moderate Laws = Good

Why are you concerned about Somalia - when our policy in Afghanistan is to turn a blind eye to the rectum ripping rapes of young boys that are destroyed as human beings and will never be men - but suicide bombers in the end - we are hypocrites and bastards.

[White Doors]

Why are you concerned about Somalia - when our policy in Afghanistan is to turn a blind eye to the rectum ripping rapes of young boys that are destroyed as human beings and will never be men - but suicide bombers in the end - we are hypocrites and bastards.

speak for yourself pervert

[Sir Bandelot]

If our troops are there to really bring some kind of law and order, we should be concerned about both countries.

We did not accomplish much in Somalia. I don't think we will accomplish much in Afghanistan.

[myata]

If we here, in the rich and morally, etc superior West, were interested indeed in improving the condition in many of underdeveloped and failing places on this Earth, we would be doing lot less of sporadic democratic rebuilding aka shoving our ways of life down the unlucky recipient's throat, but instead, negotiated in good faith, a few really fundamental, undeniable human rights. I'm speaking not of democracy, freedom of press, political freedoms and/or unrestricted market capitalism - these are inventions, great and faboulous as they are, of our path of progress; not even vaccination and female literacy - highly desirable as they are, they are the goals, benchmarks for societies that voluntarily accepted that path - not something we'd call "rights", then use as a ticket to invade and "liberate" people half world away. What's meant here is 1) the right to life; and 2) the right to individual freedom. People everywhere, virtually any place on Earth, can understand that. Because virtually anywhere on Earth, these rights are already understood and respected. Yes, including Taleban. And now, having attained an honest genuine understanding of what constitutes real rights (as opposed to our Western "rights" used synonimously with "our superiour way of life" and "the justification to invade and educate others"), one could then turn to negotiating certain extensions to these rights, such as e.g. granting of refuge (if somebody is condemned to lose life, and there's a place that would take them in, they would be allowed to go). Again, I'm stressing "negotiate" i.e. voluntary and willing transaction, not something forced and/or imposed by hook or by crook. And most certainly, something that works both ways.

Finally, having developed these foremost objectives, one could invest resources and efforts saved on all useless and destructive "liberation" operations into 3) a consistent, reliable mechanism to deal with abuses of basic rights in those selected places where no stable government exists, i.e "failed states". A strategy, that is not an occupation and "rebuilding", but rather assertained capability (backed up with resources, human and material, unwavering committment by world community) to establish and protect safe zones for civilan population, and prevent abuses of human rights by prompt and forceful action.

I wonder if international system based on 1), 2) and 3) could be (by far) less expensive, and achieve much more practical result (i.e in saved human life), then all our invasional/liberational efforts so far?

[White Doors]

If our troops are there to really bring some kind of law and order, we should be concerned about both countries.

We did not accomplish much in Somalia. I don't think we will accomplish much in Afghanistan.

I suppose if you think Canada is a fascist state then presumably you would think that we could do no good in any war theatre as we would just be exporting our fascism, oui?

[Sir Bandelot]

2) the right to individual freedom. People everywhere, virtually any place on Earth, can understand that.

Yes, but what if allowing individual freedom begins to conflict with the conservative values of a society. By letting people have freedom of speech, some will abuse it, for example by expressing hate literature. Or by expressing liberal ideas that are seen to undermine the core values of a conservative society. I'm talking about a place like Iran, where, lets say they might look down on western materialism or hollywood style sexual media. In the United States people in the bible belt regions are appalled by the values of people living in California. When they reached a point that fundamental christian leaders were able to rally them together into a political movement, it was the backlash against liberalism. Some people purposely choose to restrict individual freedoms, on the basis of their moral values. Life is a struggle between these opposing views of life itself, where one leads to cultural decadence and the other leads to oppression, and it shall ever be thus.

[AngusThermopyle]

We did not accomplish much in Somalia.

A statement based on a massive lack of knowledge of the facts coupled with a willing desire to remain ignorant. Before making such empty statements I suggest you do a little research and discover the actual facts, not just rely on sensationalist media and group hysteria.

A good place to start is the link I provided in the Somalia thread located in "The rest Of The World" section of the forums.

If you do so you will discover that Canada was the only nation present in Somalia to actually accomplish its stated mission goals as dictated by both the U.N. and the Canadian government. Perhaps rather than relying on misconceptions fostered by the popular media you might try actually learning the facts. After doing so you may see that the reality is not that which is peddled by mass media.

[Sir Bandelot]

I suppose if you think Canada is a fascist state then presumably you would think that we could do no good in any war theatre as we would just be exporting our fascism, oui?

I never think in absolutes. War can sometimes be the only option, just as when a bully confronts you, they will not be reasoned with, they only understand violence, so trying to negotiate is a waste. But I do not enjoy war or violence, since it always results in harm and war harms the people who are the least of these. So I believe if there is an option to resolve a problem without violence, that way should be followed.

[AngusThermopyle]

2) the right to individual freedom. People everywhere, virtually any place on Earth, can understand that. Because virtually anywhere on Earth, these rights are already understood and respected. Yes, including Taleban.

Okay, now I know you're not serious.

There's a very large number of places on the earth where this is not respected at all. Some countries still employ slavery, others keep their citizens in various states that amount to vasallage. You just can't be serious about what you said, it absolutely ignores the facts as they stand in the world today.

one could then turn to negotiating certain extensions to these rights, such as e.g. granting of refuge (if somebody is condemned to lose life, and there's a place that would take them in, they would be allowed to go)

Yes, you definately are joking.

So you think that if someone is in danger of their life, condemned by some mean nasties who want to kill them, they just have to say "I want to leave and I know a place they'll let me go to", and the mean nasties will just say, "cool, off you go then".

It doesn't matter what nice ideas you come up with the simple fact is that mean masties exist all over the place, and not just in small numbers. You're idea would never work, not in the real world anyway. You can sing "We Are The World" all day long to the mean nasties and they wouldn't give a sh*t what you think, they'd still kill or enslave you at the drop of a hat.

Edited November 5, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[Sir Bandelot]

A statement based on a massive lack of knowledge of the facts coupled with a willing desire to remain ignorant. Before making such empty statements I suggest you do a little research and discover the actual facts, not just rely on sensationalist media and group hysteria.

A good place to start is the link I provided in the Somalia thread located in "The rest Of The World" section of the forums.

If you do so you will discover that Canada was the only nation present in Somalia to actually accomplish its stated mission goals as dictated by both the U.N. and the Canadian government. Perhaps rather than relying on misconceptions fostered by the popular media you might try actually learning the facts. After doing so you may see that the reality is not that which is peddled by mass media.

I do not need your link, nor your petty underhanded remarks... the news of what its like in Somalia today is evidence enough. The most violent region in the world. Besides your ass

[M.Dancer]

The most violent region in the world. Besides your ass

Someone has a man crush...

[AngusThermopyle]

the news of what its like in Somalia today is evidence enough.

Thank you for affirming what I said about your ignorance and lack of knowledge as relating to the subject.

That you would even attempt to compare the Somalia of today with that of the early 90's is laughable on its own. It is interesting that you further prove my statement as to ignorance by flat out refusing to learn about the subject, noce, good to see people exist with a passion for truth such as yours.

If it floats your boat then remain ignorant, refuse to read or learn, and remain a laughing stock for those who do choose to inform themselves.

[AngusThermopyle]

Someone has a man crush...

[Sir Bandelot]

Thank you for affirming what I said about your ignorance and lack of knowledge as relating to the subject.

That you would even attempt to compare the Somalia of today with that of the early 90's is laughable on its own. It is interesting that you further prove my statement as to ignorance by flat out refusing to learn about the subject, noce, good to see people exist with a passion for truth such as yours.

If it floats your boat then remain ignorant, refuse to read or learn, and remain a laughing stock for those who do choose to inform themselves.

I believe what I believe based on real world evidence, you make excuses for what you want to believe. Go to Somalia and see it then, if you think what we did had any lasting value. Ten years is nothing, what it amount to is an abject failure.

[White Doors]

I never think in absolutes. War can sometimes be the only option, just as when a bully confronts you, they will not be reasoned with, they only understand violence, so trying to negotiate is a waste. But I do not enjoy war or violence, since it always results in harm and war harms the people who are the least of these. So I believe if there is an option to resolve a problem without violence, that way should be followed.

But you think harper is a fascist don't you? I mean, if you really believe that then shouldn't you be hoping we get invaded so as to lift us out of our oppressive state?

[Sir Bandelot]

But you think harper is a fascist don't you? I mean, if you really believe that then shouldn't you be hoping we get invaded so as to lift us out of our oppressive state?

No, he is a post-neo fascist. You have a problem with it because you are conditioned to the word fascist as though it is something fearsome or despicable, like some people think about the "s" word (socialism). I do not think of fascists that way, they are not totally despicable. Some ideas are good and useful, some not good. But at least I know what it is.

Who would invade us to save us, the "islamo-fascists"?

[AngusThermopyle]

Go to Somalia and see it then

Been there, done that. When did you go? Was it the same time I was there? During the Clayton Matchee, Kyle Brown, Shidane Arone incident? It must have been since you're so well informed of the facts relating to Somalia.

Once again you willfully ignore the fact that Canada accomplished its mandated mission goals because it doesn't support your statement. You then imply that we did not accomplish anything because 19 years after we left the place has been overtaken by extremists and pirates, a fallacious arguement based on faulty logic at best.

How would I know though, I was just there participating in the mission that you claim accomplished nothing. How could my experience and knowledge ever compare to yours which you have already shown is based upon a blind refusal to learn the facts and discover what actually happened.

I do not think of fascists that way, they are not totally despicable.

Too bad you cant tell that to the Italian people circa late 30's , early 40's. I'm sure they would have appreciated your insight.

Edited November 5, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[Sir Bandelot]

Been there, done that.

Well then I'm sorry to hear that you and your colleagues wasted your time and achieved nothing, other than shaming the Canadian military with scandals of abuse and murder. Since the place is now kjust as bad, or worse than before you went, nothing positive wa accomplished. That will be the record of it in the annals of history.