Toronto gun violence leaves two dead

[guyser]

If you come to Canada to plunder on the street level or corporate level you are not welcome - I say shut the damn door.

Oh but if you want to sponge off your kids, not pay taxes and generally be a drag on everyone, why not?

That right Oleg?

Yes if we had a mayor w balls and he told everyone to behave that would work. Your THC level must be in the 40% bracket.

[mikedavid00]

This issue's root cause is our family sponsorship immigration program. (70% of our immigrants)

Nothing less, nothing more.

It's a fact.

[Mr.Canada]

This issue's root cause is our family sponsorship immigration program. (70% of our immigrants)

Nothing less, nothing more.

It's a fact.

Agreed. Canada must bring in useful immigrants, skilled ones not elderly ones which only leech off of a health care system that is already strained the limit. Not to mention they haven't paid anything into it. This may bankrupt it or cause our taxes to increase. These acts are nearly treasonous if you ask me.

[Kitch]

Agreed. Canada must bring in useful immigrants, skilled ones not elderly ones which only leech off of a health care system that is already strained the limit. Not to mention they haven't paid anything into it. This may bankrupt it or cause our taxes to increase. These acts are nearly treasonous if you ask me.

Did anyone ever think that maybe we let people in because it's in their interest rather than our own? Yes we need to be careful, but the application process can't be a selection process based on who can offer us the most.

[Sir Bandelot]

I don't know much about "Kyle Weese", the alleged shooter who just turned himself in, but he don't look like no immigrant to me. He's certainly not black, or even brown.

I wonder how many immigrants were at that bar.

[William Ashley]

The onlyway you are going to stop gun violence is to teach people to cooperate, offer people a good standard of living, and to reimplement the danelaw and civil responsibility. eg. Dont' put the person in jail unless they are a continued threat to people tax them for the rest of their life to pay the next of kin or the government for monitoring programs. Eg. for the rest of their life 25% of the income goes to the geld tax.

If they kill twice 50% of what they earn goes to the geld tax. 3 times they end up in jail for the rest of their life, or in a works program, or they are given the option of the death penalty, that they can choose between.

There is nothing to prevent murder more than realizing that if you do it 25% of whatever you earn for the rest of your life will be paid to the friends and/or family of your victim.

While some might still do it, they may see it as more than, if I kill someone I go to jail --- NO you don't go to jail you stay unprotected in the public to face the friends and family, that you have to pay for the rest of your life.

Don't put criminals in jail make them give restitution for the harm they have caused. What good does throwing someone in jail while the 9 year old daughter of the victim gets nothing in return.. have the murderor pay for easing the life of the victims freinds and family. Make them take up some of the duties of the lost person in providing for the welfare of those effected. Jailtime is downtime. It is only an economic burden on tax payers and citizens.. we need works projects not holding pens.

[William Ashley]

The onlyway you are going to stop gun violence is to teach people to cooperate, offer people a good standard of living, and to reimplement the danelaw and civil responsibility. eg. Dont' put the person in jail unless they are a continued threat to people tax them for the rest of their life to pay the next of kin or the government for monitoring programs. Eg. for the rest of their life 25% of the income goes to the geld tax.

If they kill twice 50% of what they earn goes to the geld tax. 3 times they end up in jail for the rest of their life, or in a works program, or they are given the option of the death penalty, that they can choose between.

There is nothing to prevent murder more than realizing that if you do it 25% of whatever you earn for the rest of your life will be paid to the friends and/or family of your victim.

While some might still do it, they may see it as more than, if I kill someone I go to jail --- NO you don't go to jail you stay unprotected in the public to face the friends and family, that you have to pay for the rest of your life.

Don't put criminals in jail make them give restitution for the harm they have caused. What good does throwing someone in jail while the 9 year old daughter of the victim gets nothing in return.. have the murderor pay for easing the life of the victims freinds and family. Make them take up some of the duties of the lost person in providing for the welfare of those effected. Jailtime is downtime. It is only an economic burden on tax payers and citizens.. we need works projects not holding pens.

Put the jail in the artic too.. give them some soil and some seeds and some time in the wilderness with the polar bears and seals to make for their survival if they choose life. With trackers on of course.

Give murderers the option to join the military in a crimimal pioneers / conscript group.. send them to stan.. implement martial law with the death penalty stop wasting tax payers money to try to prevent peoples god given right to bear arms to protect our constitutional and legal rights.. we have the right to bear arms, our monarchs ages ago granted us these rights and even in some cases made us take up and train with arms, it is our right and we need to be mindful of our responsibilitiy. We need people with a good shot so bystandards dont get hurt and we need to insure that peoples honour is upheld and people arn't damaging society by their actions.. above all though we must learn to communicate.

But the only answer is knowing why and when to kill clearly self defence is a reason, in most cases our property is not threatened so there is no need to defend our property... frankly it is in the public that is the time not to kill others because wehave equal rights in those places.

None the less. Canada is a pussified nation when it comes to guns and gun laws. We have the right to bear arms. Of course we must be responsible in not endangering the public with their use.. and their use is to defend our safety and our property - reasonably and mindfully, and not using them more than is needed.

Forget the lawyers bills have them pay the victms up front, and confiscate all their property (except perhaps toos of trades) and have them live in government housing until they earn enough and save enough to go somewhere else.

Edited October 29, 2008 by William Ashley

[Mr.Canada]

Did anyone ever think that maybe we let people in because it's in their interest rather than our own? Yes we need to be careful, but the application process can't be a selection process based on who can offer us the most.

That's exactly what it should be. The world economy is in a downturn. We simply cannot afford to take in so many refugees anymore. We should only take in refugees if their life is in immediate danger otherwise, no way!

If the don't have skills that can be of use to us to make our country stronger they aren't welcome in my books.

I don't want Canada to turn into the worlds welfare state. Maybe it already is.

[Sir Bandelot]

Money can't pay for a life. If my kid was killed by someone like this, I wouldn't want their money. Even if they did that what kind of money would such a person be able to make? None, who wants to hire them. They would just live on the street and eat at the soup kitchen. That is a daft idea.

Here's another, completely different take on this problem, aside from the "blame immigrants for all our problems" mentatlity that seems prevalent amongst some of you meatheads-

"The suspect has an extensive criminal record and was legally prohibited from carrying a weapon at the time of the shooting, Giroux said."

"This is an extremely violent man with an extremely violent history," he said, without elaborating on what kind of charges the suspect has faced in the past. "Anyone should approach with extreme caution."

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTV...=TorontoNewHome

You get the idea? This person was well known as extremely violent, with an extensive criminal record, and he's on the street and now a woman is dead. Blame an ineffective legal system that holds some people for a minimal time while senselessly penalizing others who are not violent. Legally prohibited from carrying a weapon- Baaah! Did his frikkin parole officer know where he was? Of course not. Tell you what, anyone who is on parole and commits another crime, that judge and that parole officer should be doing time also. Then you'll see some asses getting covered.

Pay them money- Baaah!

[Mr.Canada]

Money can't pay for a life. If my kid was killed by someone like this, I wouldn't want their money. Even if they did that what kind of money would such a person be able to make? None, who wants to hire them. They would just live on the street and eat at the soup kitchen. That is a daft idea.

Here's another, completely different take on this problem, aside from the "blame immigrants for all our problems" mentatlity that seems prevalent amongst some of you meatheads-

"The suspect has an extensive criminal record and was legally prohibited from carrying a weapon at the time of the shooting, Giroux said."

"This is an extremely violent man with an extremely violent history," he said, without elaborating on what kind of charges the suspect has faced in the past. "Anyone should approach with extreme caution."

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTV...=TorontoNewHome

You get the idea? This person was well known as extremely violent, with an extensive criminal record, and he's on the street and now a woman is dead. Blame an ineffective legal system that holds some people for a minimal time while senselessly penalizing others who are not violent. Legally prohibited from carrying a weapon- Baaah! Did his frikkin parole officer know where he was? Of course not. Tell you what, anyone who is on parole and commits another crime, that judge and that parole officer should be doing time also. Then you'll see some asses getting covered.

Pay them money- Baaah!

I already did that 4 pages ago. Here is my post.

We definitely need to have a public inquiry into how judges are doing their jobs.

This guy has shot people twice before and is still on the street. This is the third time he's been arrested for shooting someone and this time an innocent bystander died.
He should not have even been out on the street. He had a weapons ban imposed on him the first time and shot someone a second time and now a third.

The judges need to start following the law and end bail for all violent offenders.

This guy, who is still on the lam btw had 6 of 7 charges against him dropped by the crown in 2005 and was deemed a moderate risk to re offend.

This is an outrage!

I'd like too see our judges elected so that they're accountable. Right now they're accountable to the AG and that is a joke.

The time for coddling thugs is over. The time for deal making is over. Time for 3 strikes law is ripe!

The police arrest these thugs and the courts are sending them home with a slap on the wrist. Outrageous.

I have no problem paying more taxes to build more prisons and keeping these people off of our streets.

[Sir Bandelot]

I already did that 4 pages ago. Here is my post.

Just a link would be fine.

Is it ok if I also put in my two cents

[Alta4ever]

The onlyway you are going to stop gun violence is to teach people to cooperate, offer people a good standard of living, and to reimplement the danelaw and civil responsibility. eg. Dont' put the person in jail unless they are a continued threat to people tax them for the rest of their life to pay the next of kin or the government for monitoring programs. Eg. for the rest of their life 25% of the income goes to the geld tax.

If they kill twice 50% of what they earn goes to the geld tax. 3 times they end up in jail for the rest of their life, or in a works program, or they are given the option of the death penalty, that they can choose between.

There is nothing to prevent murder more than realizing that if you do it 25% of whatever you earn for the rest of your life will be paid to the friends and/or family of your victim.

While some might still do it, they may see it as more than, if I kill someone I go to jail --- NO you don't go to jail you stay unprotected in the public to face the friends and family, that you have to pay for the rest of your life.

Don't put criminals in jail make them give restitution for the harm they have caused. What good does throwing someone in jail while the 9 year old daughter of the victim gets nothing in return.. have the murderor pay for easing the life of the victims freinds and family. Make them take up some of the duties of the lost person in providing for the welfare of those effected. Jailtime is downtime. It is only an economic burden on tax payers and citizens.. we need works projects not holding pens.

Do you really think that this guy didn't go to kindergraden and learn how to co-operate? That this needs to be re-taught? Tax them more if they commit more crime? How do you get blood from a stone, if they are invovled in organized crime, they don't pay income tax, and what incentive is raising taxes for them to go out and get a real job once they have gotten out of jail? How do you make resitution for taking someones life, you can't.

Leave criminals unprotected in the public? So are you an anarchist or what, do we really need a bunch of vigilantism will this really make our streets safer?

I just can't beleive you would post something so, so....never mind. I can't believe I have wasted the time responding to it.

There is no easy answer to the crime in our country but we do need an overhaul of the criminal justice system we now find the system seems to protect those who commit the crime more then the victims of the crime this needs to stop, and we need to find the balance between punishment and rehablition ( although right now it seems not many of the rehablitiation programs work).

[eyeball]

There is no easy answer to the crime in our country...

There's an easy answer to about 90% of it.

[noahbody]

There's an easy answer to about 90% of it.

Crime shouldn't pay.

[eyeball]

Crime shouldn't pay.

Why not? It sounds like a dangerous and risky occupation to me.

[cybercoma]

Sure has.

Suggesting.....?

Not really suggesting anything. I just thought the thread title sounded funny.

According to the statistics on CBC's website, last year "42 of the murders were shootings, 22 were stabbings, and 14 were caused by trauma (blunt force). The cause of six murders was either unknown or unreleased as of January 2, 2008."

42 murders by shooting, 38 for all other methods. Compare this to Chicago, which has a similar population and population density, whose murder number for 2007 was 443. There's nearly 10 times the amount of murders there.

I hate to see people getting murdered, but the crime in Canada needs to be put in perspective.

[Sir Bandelot]

I hate to see people getting murdered, but the crime in Canada needs to be put in perspective.

Exactly why they should not simply relax and allow it to continue to get worse. Not so much the total number of murders has increased, Toronto seems to have about 40-50 murders on average every year. But the impression is that gun crimes have. A couple of things happened in the past few years that might have influenced this- Hells Angels set up shop with the mayor literally laying down the welcome mat. Then a short time later a major burglary took place at a TO gun shop: A van drove through the front window in the middle of the night and cleaned out the store, taking mostly. Pretty obvious what that was all about, eh? No need to bring em across the border, this is how we do it Chicago style.

[White Doors]

Did anyone ever think that maybe we let people in because it's in their interest rather than our own? Yes we need to be careful, but the application process can't be a selection process based on who can offer us the most.

???

what the?

Of course immigration should be in Canada's interest...

[cybercoma]

Exactly why they should not simply relax and allow it to continue to get worse. Not so much the total number of murders has increased, Toronto seems to have about 40-50 murders on average every year. But the impression is that gun crimes have. A couple of things happened in the past few years that might have influenced this- Hells Angels set up shop with the mayor literally laying down the welcome mat. Then a short time later a major burglary took place at a TO gun shop: A van drove through the front window in the middle of the night and cleaned out the store, taking mostly. Pretty obvious what that was all about, eh? No need to bring em across the border, this is how we do it Chicago style.

Of course we should do everything possible to avoid the situation getting as bad as it is in cities like Chicago. According to CBC, though, the gun-crime rates haven't increased; however, teenagers using guns has.

The report notes that firearm-related crimes overall have remained stable from 2002 to 2006.

But in three of those four years, the number of teenagers aged 12 to 17 accused in such crimes rose, for a total increase of 32 per cent since 2002.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/02/20/...s-can-guns.html

This statistic could imply an increase in gun-crime in the future as these teenagers become adults and more kids enter into this teenage life of gun-crime. So, it's probably worth while finding ways to educate youth and address poverty to keep them from resorting to this type of violence. We also need to address the problem of street-silence. Kids don't feel safe turning in violent criminals because they feel they won't be protected by police after "ratting" someone out.

Making the penalties stricter will do nothing to stop gun-crimes and murders because those who commit the acts do not think they will be caught. That is why state's in the US that have the death penalty do not necessarily have lower murder rates. People don't commit crimes thinking they will be punished for them. So, I think we just need to enforce the laws we have and focus on forms of education and prevention, rather than creating stricter laws which history has shown will do nothing to stop the violence.

[Mr.Canada]

The death penalty should be reinstated for heinous crimes where there is either DNA evidence or three eyewitnesses. An eye for an eye, you kill one of our citizens, we'll kill you back should read the sign upon entering the country. That would get revenge and closure to the victims family and would free up some jail space for more convicts since there is never a shortage of people willing to commit crime.

I would like to see a referendum on that. Put it to a vote see if it'll pass. I say it would it would be as close as the yes/no Quebec one was as manyt Canadians are in favor of capital punishment.

[Kitch]

???

what the?

Of course immigration should be in Canada's interest...

All I'm saying is that as a Canadian I'm starting to feel like we're the 3rd or 4th kid in the tree house and changing the rules to whatever game is/was being played, especially to prevent people from doing what we (our recent ancestors) did.

Like I said, maybe we need to be careful, but I don't like the idea of Canada being an exclusive (elitist) club.

[White Doors]

All I'm saying is that as a Canadian I'm starting to feel like we're the 3rd or 4th kid in the tree house and changing the rules to whatever game is/was being played, especially to prevent people from doing what we (our recent ancestors) did.

Like I said, maybe we need to be careful, but I don't like the idea of Canada being an exclusive (elitist) club.

When we compare our country to almost all other countries in the world, I LOVE the idea of Canada being a exclusive club.

Seemingly you would like Canada to become more like the Democratic Republic of the Congo so it is more 'fair...

Count me out.

[M.Dancer]

....and changing the rules to whatever game is/was being played, especially to prevent people from doing what we (our recent ancestors) did.

And what would that be exactly?

[Argus]

Did anyone ever think that maybe we let people in because it's in their interest rather than our own? Yes we need to be careful, but the application process can't be a selection process based on who can offer us the most.

Why not? Immigration is not a charity program. We're more than generous enough with our absurd refugee system. We certainly should not be taking in immigrants for any other reason than what will help Canada.

[Argus]

All I'm saying is that as a Canadian I'm starting to feel like we're the 3rd or 4th kid in the tree house and changing the rules to whatever game is/was being played, especially to prevent people from doing what we (our recent ancestors) did.

Like I said, maybe we need to be careful, but I don't like the idea of Canada being an exclusive (elitist) club.

Exclusive? We're hardly that. Most Canadians seem to think mass immigration is normal, but throughout the world, with very few exceptions, you simply cannot immigrate into another country and become a citizen. Most western nations accept very few immigrants. Some accept none, other than those who are ethnic members of that nationality.