Harper needs to step down

[jdobbin]

then they brought in gun control and watched the rural economy slide into near chaos until oil saved it. Then all of a sudden they want to punish the western economy with a carbon tax!!!

And the cap and trade won't hurt the west? What about the promise to end sales of bitumen to some countries that the Tories promised? Or all of these just make believe policies?

As for the gun registry, you'll get no arguments from me that it was an expensive and probably ill conceived policy but is it the main reason why rural westerners vote Tory? I don't think so.

Rural westerners vote Conservative (as they have been doing since when they first started electing MPs in some ridings) because they are generally feel the the Liberal party or urban areas. They have a tradition of voting that way and I don't know that anything the Liberals do would change that.

[jdobbin]

The biggest problem the Liberals are facing, is a smaller and smaller map to work with. They're no longer competitive out west, or in Quebec, they're bleeding support in Ontario, which only leaves them with eastern Canada.

That assumes the party can't reclaim territory with a change of leadership, rebuilt organization, a focus on fundraising and a new policies.

It also assumes that the Tories won't take a beating if the economy becomes tougher and deficits start to occur.

[Who's Doing What?]

And the cap and trade won't hurt the west? What about the promise to end sales of bitumen to some countries that the Tories promised? Or all of these just make believe policies?

As for the gun registry, you'll get no arguments from me that it was an expensive and probably ill conceived policy but is it the main reason why rural westerners vote Tory? I don't think so.

Rural westerners vote Conservative (as they have been doing since when they first started electing MPs in some ridings) because they are generally feel the the Liberal party or urban areas. They have a tradition of voting that way and I don't know that anything the Liberals do would change that.

Harper voted in favour of the gun registry.

[OddSox]

A carbon tax reflects the true cost of oil. You can be bitter about it but I don't see why anyone should reap the benefits of something without paying the costs no matter where you are in the country.

Interesting, in that case why were a major portion of the revenues from the carbon tax being redirected to benefit those who were not expected to pay their share of it?

[blueblood]

And the cap and trade won't hurt the west? What about the promise to end sales of bitumen to some countries that the Tories promised? Or all of these just make believe policies?

As for the gun registry, you'll get no arguments from me that it was an expensive and probably ill conceived policy but is it the main reason why rural westerners vote Tory? I don't think so.

Rural westerners vote Conservative (as they have been doing since when they first started electing MPs in some ridings) because they are generally feel the the Liberal party or urban areas. They have a tradition of voting that way and I don't know that anything the Liberals do would change that.

I don't think they'll be implementing the cap and trade. Politicians break promises, it happens.

The gun registry isn't the main reason, but the symbolism behind it is a contributing factor.

The CPC has been able to court Ontario and Urban voters without alienating its base. The CPC could have had quebec had they kept their mouths shut, you would have heard no complaints from westerners. If the CPC can make gains why not the LPC???

[marksman]

Interesting, in that case why were a major portion of the revenues from the carbon tax being redirected to benefit those who were not expected to pay their share of it?

Don't confuse a carbon tax with the Green Shift. The Green Shift was a possible implementation of a carbon tax where the revenues from the tax were used to fund tax breaks for lower income Canadians. That doesn't mean that carbon tax revenues must be used for this purpose.

[noahbody]

Harper voted in favour of the gun registry.

He voted for a gun registry with a price tag of $2 million.

[Smallc]

He voted for a gun registry with a price tag of $2 million.

Thats silly. Many westerners hated it no matter what the cost.

[Mr.Canada]

How exactly am I a sore loser? By pointing out that someone's grasping at straws with their arguments?

He had a policy but Canadians didn't like it. Personally I think we can do better than the proposed Green Shift.

Try not to confuse a rejected plan with no plan.

You're right Harper's plan is so much better.

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/10/15/harper-economy.html

Hold a meeting. Take "appropriate action". Summon Parliament or in other words do his job. Go to a meeting. Attend a meeting. Continue a review.

The last 1 is the only thing that approaches an actual plan. Neither Harper or Dion inspired much confidence in me with their "plans".

And how long have you been working to use basic English? I hope it's less than 2 years otherwise that's pathetic.

Ah marksman, your aim is so off. I almost feel sorry for your misguided personal salvos. Obviously The RH Stephan Harper plan inspired more confidence in Canadians than Mr. Dions lack of one did.

Canadians handed Dion and his Liberals the worst defeat since Federation...hilarious to watch Liberals lick their wounds. Canada isn't listening to Liberals anymore. Adscam was the final straw.

Canada doesn't want crooks in government. Which is why they voted for integrity, that integrity has a name. The name is Mr. Prime Minister and it belongs to the RH Stephan Harper.

Personal attacks have no place in political discussion. Please do try to control your emotions.

[jdobbin]

I don't think they'll be implementing the cap and trade. Politicians break promises, it happens.

And yet you were so certain the Liberals would keep theirs.

The gun registry isn't the main reason, but the symbolism behind it is a contributing factor.

It wouldn't have mattered if the Liberals loosened the law to let farmers walk around with concealed weapons, the votes just wouldn't come for the party.

The CPC has been able to court Ontario and Urban voters without alienating its base. The CPC could have had quebec had they kept their mouths shut, you would have heard no complaints from westerners. If the CPC can make gains why not the LPC???

The problem is that the Tories can't keep their mouths shut. They do really believe in cutting cultural funding and eventually, they do start cutting. Strengthens the base, doesn't do well in Quebec where they don't want those type of cuts.

Harper was able to win some support in suburbia and rural Ontario with the weakest Liberal leader since Confederation (as some in the main newspapers have said). Now, you seem to expect they will pick and even weaker leader than they have now.

[Mr.Canada]

And yet you were so certain the Liberals would keep theirs.

It wouldn't have mattered if the Liberals loosened the law to let farmers walk around with concealed weapons, the votes just wouldn't come for the party.

The problem is that the Tories can't keep their mouths shut. They do really believe in cutting cultural funding and eventually, they do start cutting. Strengthens the base, doesn't do well in Quebec where they don't want those type of cuts.

Harper was able to win some support in suburbia and rural Ontario with the weakest Liberal leader since Confederation (as some in the main newspapers have said). Now, you seem to expect they will pick and even weaker leader than they have now.

It doesn't matter who the leader of the LPC may be. Adscam tarnished the Liberal brand forever.

The Liberals are looked at as not trustworthy and pandering to Quebec while ignoring the rest of the country. Under the Liberal party Ontario and Quebec get the PM's attention and the rest of country is largely ignored.

Adscam and the way the LPC treats its friends will never be forgotten by the average taxpayer.

The CPC will win some urban seats next election and march to a majority.

The pendulum swings...

Edited October 18, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[betsy]

Well if it's been touted then it must be true. It's also been touted that Harper wants to put soldiers on every street corner. Should we believe that too? Arrogant is thinking you can tell supporters of a party what they think.

Natural governing party

The Liberal party is sometimes called Canada's natural governing party. It's a title the party carried in the 20th century and the first half-decade of the 21st.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/liberals/

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Libs will return to power soon enough. Don't count them out.

[marksman]

Ah marksman, your aim is so off. I almost feel sorry for your misguided personal salvos. Obviously The RH Stephan Harper plan inspired more confidence in Canadians than Mr. Dions lack of one did.

Canadians handed Dion and his Liberals the worst defeat since Federation...hilarious to watch Liberals lick their wounds. Canada isn't listening to Liberals anymore. Adscam was the final straw.

Canada doesn't want crooks in government. Which is why they voted for integrity, that integrity has a name. The name is Mr. Prime Minister and it belongs to the RH Stephan Harper.

Personal attacks have no place in political discussion. Please do try to control your emotions.

I always laugh at these righteous sounding posts. Personal attacks have no place in political discussion and yet you personally attack people like Dion. Apparently you've also mistaken sarcasm for some type of overemotional reaction. Next time I'll write the word sarcasm into the post for you. I guess on these forums you've got to be explicit since people seem to automatically assume the worst. So let me make my point in a different way. Next time you're attacking someone's english proofread your post. Unlike your post that's not a personal attack. I'm pointing out your double standard.

It's no wonder it's hard to get good discussion around here. Someone implies that all liberals are arrogant and think their party is the natural ruling party just because it was "touted". I point out that by that logic Harper wants to put soldiers on our street corners. Somehow that makes me Dion's best friend. Somehow that translates into me voting Liberal and being a sore loser. Maybe I should've used an ON example instead and said that by this logic McGuinty is an alien kitten eater. Would that make me an ON hating westerner?

I've said Canadians rejected Dion's Green Shift so I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue that Canadians chose Harper in the election. Seems kind of obvious. But if you want to talk about Harper's postelection economic plan compared to Dion's only the most blindly partisan party supporters will claim that a plan to hold meetings and call Parliament into session is radically different than a plan to hold meetings. Harper's 6 point plan is more like a todo list out of his daily calendar than an economic plan. Just like Dion's plan for the economic crisis was.

1 reason people are tired of Canadian politics is this very situation. 2 people both wearing grey shirts point at each other and accuse the other 1 of wearing black while claiming that they're clothed in white. All liberals are criminals. All conservatives are the Canadian version of the KKK. It's all bs.

It may surprise you but not everyone on here is either a diehard liberal or a diehard conservative.

By the way when using RH Stephen Harper you should also use H Stephane Dion. It's only courteous.

[betsy]

Just because some advisors told Dion to dump the green shift that doesn't mean he's arrogant. He wanted the environment to be at the centre of his platform and it didn't work for him. Do you think party leaders should try to follow every bit of advice they get even if it's contradictory? Nothing would get done with that approach. You can bet there were also memos in support of the green shift.

Of all the leaders Harper comes across as more arrogant. He's tried to shut his MPs up and when he 1st got to office tried to shut out the media because he knew best.

No, a leader doesn't have to follow every advice thrown his way.

But, and this is a big but, a big part of being a good leader is having the ability to DISCERN. Knowing when to back down and follow sound advice.

As you stated, "He wanted the environment to be at the centre of his platform....," The senior advisers of the party advised him. The polls were showing the Liberal Party was going straight to its demise! The media were all sounding off that his Carbon Tax was not getting anywhere! The pundits were all agreeing about the same thing! His own MPs were grumbling about it!

What do you think could be the reason why he stubbornly dug his heels in? It's because the Green Shift was his brainchild. And because he wanted the environment to be the center of his platform.

Therefore, he placed his wants ahead of what's good for the party.

Edited October 18, 2008 by betsy

[marksman]

Natural governing party

The Liberal party is sometimes called Canada's natural governing party. It's a title the party carried in the 20th century and the first half-decade of the 21st.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/liberals/

Notice that says nothing about a sense of entitlement. It also doesn't say that liberals "feel and consider" themselves the natural governing party. The Liberal party is sometimes called that and it's not just Liberals who've used the title. Just because a political scientist or the media uses the phrase doesn't mean liberals are arrogant.

Even if it was the Liberal party slogan it's more a campaign tool or branding tool than anything else.

There are arrogant people in all parties. But this isn't how you identify them.

[betsy]

Notice that says nothing about a sense of entitlement. It also doesn't say that liberals "feel and consider" themselves the natural governing party.

It's a title the party carried in the 20th century and the first half-decade of the 21st.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/liberals/

[marksman]

No, a leader doesn't have to follow every advice thrown his way.

But, and this is a big but, a big part of being a good leader is having the ability to DISCERN. Knowing when to back down and follow sound advice.

As you stated, "He wanted the environment to be at the centre of his platform....," The senior advisers of the party advised him. The polls were showing the Liberal Party was going straight to its demise! The media were all sounding off that his Carbon Tax was not getting anywhere! The pundits were all agreeing about the same thing! His own MPs were grumbling about it!

What do you think could be the reason why he stubbornly dug his heels in? It's because the Green Shift was his brainchild. And because he wanted the environment to be the center of his platform.

Therefore, he placed his wants ahead of what's good for the party.

Or he placed what he thought the country needed ahead of what's good for the party. Some might call that principled. Isn't spinning fun?

Knowing when to back down and follow good advice is important. But let's be honest I really doubt Dion was the only 1 in the room pushing the Green Shift even midway through the election. The question is what was all of the advice he got and when did he get it. Halfway through an election campaign is no time to change your core platform no matter how bad it's selling. To change it would be more disastrous than keeping it. You won't gain any votes when people see you abandoning your core platform all you'll do is lose votes from those who agreed. You've got to accept the writing on the wall and try to push through.

History will record Dion as a total disaster. An arrogant person pushing his personal goals rather than what's best for the party or the country. And that's the way the Liberals have to do it. Dion is now the sacrificial lamb that'll be roasted so that the Liberals can reform and become relevant again. But I doubt that's how it actually happened.

[betsy]

Knowing when to back down and follow good advice is important. But let's be honest I really doubt Dion was the only 1 in the room pushing the Green Shift even midway through the election. The question is what was all of the advice he got and when did he get it.

According to a guest of MDuffy (a woman who wrote his book - can't remember her name, sorry), Dion received that memo in April, 2008. If I'm not mistaken an expose' will come out soon on the National Post (?).

Of course Dion was not the only one pushing for the Green Shift during the election. They all were! They had to. Did they have any other choice? On one hand they have a stubborn leader who clearly refused to see reality and on the other hand, they were trying their darndest to give the impression of being united! It's a damn-if-they-do and damn-if-they-don't situation. What a predicament it must've been to be in.

Edited October 18, 2008 by betsy

[betsy]

Dion is now the sacrificial lamb that'll be roasted so that the Liberals can reform and become relevant again. But I doubt that's how it actually happened.

Sad, but true. Dion is only part of the problem.

[Smallc]

RH Stephan Harper

So are you a fan of the RH JC?

[blueblood]

And yet you were so certain the Liberals would keep theirs.

It wouldn't have mattered if the Liberals loosened the law to let farmers walk around with concealed weapons, the votes just wouldn't come for the party.

The problem is that the Tories can't keep their mouths shut. They do really believe in cutting cultural funding and eventually, they do start cutting. Strengthens the base, doesn't do well in Quebec where they don't want those type of cuts.

Harper was able to win some support in suburbia and rural Ontario with the weakest Liberal leader since Confederation (as some in the main newspapers have said). Now, you seem to expect they will pick and even weaker leader than they have now.

And Harper is paying the price for blabbing. If Harper does a good job at governing he could possibly pick up more seats, there were some real nail biters. If Harper makes ammends with Quebec, he could pick up some more seats. Personally I'd apologize for the gaffe, but that's just me.

However if Harper goes into major deficit and the CPC for some reason causes a catastrophe, Harper will lose, just like Mulroney did.

My prediction the next election will either be a landslide CPC win or real close minority for the Liberals depending on what happens and how bad the CPC handles this mess.

[betsy]

Here is an excerpt from an article by the former president of the Liberal Party.

Stephen LeDrew: Liberals need a near-death experience for the good of their health

Posted: September 24, 2008, 8:01 AM by Kelly McParland

The immediate causes of the Liberals’ campaign trouble are myriad: a leader who doesn’t resonate with the public; a platform that is, depending on whom you talk to, either incomprehensible, or just plain dumb; a team that seems to have all its oars pulling on the same side of the boat -- the list goes on. And as anyone who has been involved in campaigns can attest, once a campaign gets bogged down, troubles that would normally be overlooked metastasize into a deadly condition.

One hopes that in defeat, the Liberals will realize that they must do more than paint Stephen Harper as a Bush clone. They must do more than chant that the Conservatives will steer Canada inalterably toward its demise. The Tories are following a small-l liberal agenda because they know that the majority of Canadians will not vote for a right-wing platform. Conservative commentators like Theo Caldwell have all but admitted in these pages that the Conservatives have taken the guts of the Liberal party for their own.

To regain their relevance, Liberals will have to think beyond their traditional tenets, created in the 1950s and ’60s. These have served Canadians well, but have by now either been fulfilled or passed by. Liberals must decide what it means to be a Liberal in the 21st century, what needs to be achieved in the new financial, industrial and communications fields and what needs to be done to allow citizens to flourish in this new society.

After that awesome task is finished, the Liberal party must figure out how to get those ideas across to Canadians and give them a reason to vote Liberal. Let’s face it: When you ask people in the party why anyone should vote Liberal this time around, you usually get an answer that is neither inspiring nor plausible. It’s the same shopworn “values” stuff that the Liberals tried to sell last time, only to receive their comeuppance. The Liberal party must create a new ethos and convert it into an understandable mantra. The party’s very survival depends on it.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/f...eir-health.aspx

[marksman]

According to a guest of MDuffy (a woman who wrote his book - can't remember her name, sorry), Dion received that memo in April, 2008. If I'm not mistaken an expose' will come out soon on the National Post (?).

Of course Dion was not the only one pushing for the Green Shift during the election. They all were! They had to. Did they have any other choice? On one hand they have a stubborn leader who clearly refused to see reality and on the other hand, they were trying their darndest to give the impression of being united! It's a damn-if-they-do and damn-if-they-don't situation. What a predicament it must've been to be in.

If in April the entire party was trying to kill the Green Shift then I'll agree with you. But 1 memo doesn't mean the entire party was against it. I'm sure that in April there were senior advisors that were supporting it at least to Dion's face. And you can't blame him for advice he didn't get because it was given behind his back.

Even during the beginning of the election I'm sure people behind the scenes were supporting it. At least some people anyway. In public you're right everyone had to support it.

But I'd say that as soon as it was announced the Liberals were locked in until the end of the next election. Even if they'd changed that core part of their platform before the election it would've opened them up to attack for not having a plan or changing their minds based on polls or indecisiveness or whatever. And the Conservatives were already using those attacks. Dumping the Green Shift may've made them more effective putting Harper closer to his majority.

I think once the Green Shift was announced they were locked in for better or worse.

We'll have to wait for the tellall book I suppose. But I'm guessing it will be the history I mentioned before with Dion taking the fall all alone. No matter what actually happened.

[capricorn]

It also doesn't say that liberals "feel and consider" themselves the natural governing party. The Liberal party is sometimes called that and it's not just Liberals who've used the title. Just because a political scientist or the media uses the phrase doesn't mean liberals are arrogant.

Asking for a source where Liberals say they are the natural governing party is like asking for a source where the Conservatives say they will inherit that title.